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Lightning Lord posted:Seeing as how he's coming from manga I assume he means one continuous story told by one creator from beginning to end.
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Oct 30, 2017 13:27
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Endless Mike posted:There's lots and lots of American comics like that though? Not so much Marvel/DC, but there's plenty of indie books that run for years with one set of creators, or at worst, one writer with multiple artists. Some manga readers who don't have much experience with American comics don't really know that too well. Seeing as this guy is talking about superheroes I'm assuming this is the case, but maybe I'm being unfair.
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Oct 30, 2017 14:15
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Lightning Lord posted:Some manga readers who don't have much experience with American comics don't really know that too well. Seeing as this guy is talking about superheroes I'm assuming this is the case, but maybe I'm being unfair. You're not being unfair. There's a massive difference between western comics and manga, the serialized manga is just part of it. I will say the first time I started laying attention to comics for real it baffled me why the authors couldn't keep their poo poo together for longer than a few issues at a time. Nothing matters and everything is so different from issue to issue that continuity is a laugh riot. There is no serialized story telling in superhero comics except Claremont's X-Men. I can enjoy superhero comics now but I still think the lack of real serialized stories are a huge weakness in the medium and the big 2 are only just now becoming aware of the possibilities that manga realized decades ago. And frankly the storytelling quality of superhero comics are absolute trash-tier so even with the new knowledge they have the big 2 absolutely suck at it outside of some golden geese they tripped over. It's not that manga is superior but manga at least emphasizes creating distinct archetypes and writers are allowed to put their distinct imprint on the plot and characters. Superhero comics feel much more shallow in comparison. Superhero comics have their strengths as single issue-stories but the stagnation this encourages has caught up with us.
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Oct 30, 2017 17:06
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DC and Marvel also kind of have their hands tied because it is evident that crossovers = more money, so they feel compelled to push writing in a way that leaves the door open to crossovers, which is not going to really allow you much room for thoughtful, serialized work. I wish both companies would consider doing more stuff along the lines of Injustice, where you have a long series featuring its own continuity that is completely self contained. I guess Spider-Gwen is kind of like that too right? I mean in that it is self contained. I assume it isn't one massive on going story though.
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Oct 30, 2017 17:15
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ToastyPotato posted:DC and Marvel also kind of have their hands tied because it is evident that crossovers = more money, so they feel compelled to push writing in a way that leaves the door open to crossovers, which is not going to really allow you much room for thoughtful, serialized work. I wish both companies would consider doing more stuff along the lines of Injustice, where you have a long series featuring its own continuity that is completely self contained. I guess Spider-Gwen is kind of like that too right? I mean in that it is self contained. I assume it isn't one massive on going story though. I read Spider-Gwen. It was shallow and it sucked. They tried to pack complex storylines into single issues without taking advantage of the premise. For example they had a black female Captain America, which is a cool premise! And then they packed her entire backstory and character development in 3 pages, didn't develop her at all, didn't give her any of her own stories, didn't use her in any kind of serious storytelling attempt but still expected the audience to treat her as a three dimensional character even though the creators themselves refused to do that. I can't even tell you her name without a wiki. It's insulting to treat a character like that. It's insulting to introduce gimmicks disguised as characters or plots, and refuse to use them in storytelling in any meaningful capacity. Being self contained didn't save Spider-Gwen from having worthless trash storytelling and shallow characterization. If Spider-Gwen had been a manga we would have at least gotten multiple issues exploring black female Captain America's story, how she came to be involved with the Super Soldier program, how she survived from the past to the present, who her family was, who she loved and lost and why they mattered to her. That doesn't mean that it would be good because there's plenty of trash manga too but at least in manga the creators say "hmmm if I want to the audience to care about this character I need to invest time and space into showing them why she's important." Spider-Gwen just shoved all of that into 3-4 pages. And it sucked. Being self contained didn't help it. Modern superhero comics are absolute loving poo poo at telling good stories if you aren't Tom King. And people wonder why the industry is dying.
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Oct 30, 2017 17:28
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There are a few titles that get the chance to tell relatively lengthy stories for maybe a couple years. There's never going to be decade-spanning epics like some of the more popular manga go though, and even the most isolated titles on the fringes of the continuity will eventually get pulled away into an event at some point or another, especially if there's any amount of success with the title. You liked Miles Morales? He're's a big huge event to bring him over from his parallel universe into the main Marvel one! And now he's got separate titles where he goes off and joins superhero teams or shows up in other heroes' books, AND he'll be thrust into the center of more crossover events. So long as the reader is left feeling that they missed something, that's more sales to exploit. But of course, that's just Marvel and DC (IDW may be slowly slipping down the slope towards letting events run things with some of their titles as well). Writers and readers who want more long form stories that aren't always getting yanked around by editorial mandate can go to things being published by other companies, or even independently created works online. We're a long way past the 50s when the comics code killed off everything other than superheroes and child-friendly things.
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Oct 30, 2017 18:11
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HIJK posted:If Spider-Gwen had been a manga we would have at least gotten multiple issues exploring black female Captain America's story, how she came to be involved with the Super Soldier program, how she survived from the past to the present, who her family was, who she loved and lost and why they mattered to her. That doesn't mean that it would be good because there's plenty of trash manga too but at least in manga the creators say "hmmm if I want to the audience to care about this character I need to invest time and space into showing them why she's important." Over-long flashbacks and diversions into the backstories of side characters are why I quit reading both Naruto and Bleach. 
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Oct 30, 2017 18:17
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SlothfulCobra posted:There are a few titles that get the chance to tell relatively lengthy stories for maybe a couple years. There's never going to be decade-spanning epics like some of the more popular manga go though, and even the most isolated titles on the fringes of the continuity will eventually get pulled away into an event at some point or another, especially if there's any amount of success with the title. You liked Miles Morales? He're's a big huge event to bring him over from his parallel universe into the main Marvel one! And now he's got separate titles where he goes off and joins superhero teams or shows up in other heroes' books, AND he'll be thrust into the center of more crossover events. So long as the reader is left feeling that they missed something, that's more sales to exploit. Pretty much. It's just disappointing, that's all, especially if you're looking to make the jump. Wheat Loaf posted:Over-long flashbacks and diversions into the backstories of side characters are why I quit reading both Naruto and Bleach. That's what I was thinking of when I mentioned trash manga. Naruto and Bleach are both super mediocre. But it is a mainstay of manga storytelling that I like and it's used well in other titles.
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Oct 30, 2017 18:28
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ToastyPotato posted:DC and Marvel also kind of have their hands tied because it is evident that crossovers = more money, so they feel compelled to push writing in a way that leaves the door open to crossovers, which is not going to really allow you much room for thoughtful, serialized work. I wish both companies would consider doing more stuff along the lines of Injustice, where you have a long series featuring its own continuity that is completely self contained. I guess Spider-Gwen is kind of like that too right? I mean in that it is self contained. I assume it isn't one massive on going story though. Squirrel Girl and Gwenpool, while both technically existing within the 616 continuity, have largely been unaffected by the shenanigans going on around them.
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Oct 30, 2017 18:28
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HIJK posted:
If I'm buying a comic titled Spider-Gwen, I'd get pretty annoyed pretty fast if they devoted several months of comics to the backstory of a side character. howe_sam posted:Squirrel Girl and Gwenpool, while both technically existing within the 616 continuity, have largely been unaffected by the shenanigans going on around them. See, but Squirrel Girl is mediocre trash because they didn't spend half a year explaining the backstory to Koi Boi and Chipmunk Hunk.
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Oct 30, 2017 18:33
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HIJK posted:I read Spider-Gwen. It was shallow and it sucked. They tried to pack complex storylines into single issues without taking advantage of the premise. For example they had a black female Captain America, which is a cool premise! And then they packed her entire backstory and character development in 3 pages, didn't develop her at all, didn't give her any of her own stories, didn't use her in any kind of serious storytelling attempt but still expected the audience to treat her as a three dimensional character even though the creators themselves refused to do that. I can't even tell you her name without a wiki. Isn’t that normal for superhero comics? How many pages are devoted to the first Captain America’s origin, given that the comic is about him?
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Oct 30, 2017 18:35
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Skwirl posted:
This but unironically. I would love to see an origin for such a hyperspecific powerset as talking to koi.
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Oct 30, 2017 19:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBrPQYTuvMI Scooby Doo and Batman Brave & the Bold crossover movie being made in 2018 what the flying gently caress
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Oct 30, 2017 19:21
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Skwirl posted:If I'm buying a comic titled Spider-Gwen, I'd get pretty annoyed pretty fast if they devoted several months of comics to the backstory of a side character. "Why should the author have to make people care about the characters they introduce as part of the protagonist's supporting casts??? why can't people just be satisfied with cardboard cutouts??? I don't understand why anyone would want to get to know characters that keep appearing in these comics???" business hammocks posted:Isn’t that normal for superhero comics? How many pages are devoted to the first Captain America’s origin, given that the comic is about him? That's part of my criticism of super hero comics in general. I also think that's why the movies always go back to the origin story script, because they have to introduce the protagonist and make people care about them as if they were 3 dimensional people. When I was first reading superhero comics it really disgruntled me that we didn't get to know these characters in a meaningful fashion, it just threw us into the action without much explanation and for a while it's just Punchman fighting Evil Punchman. That doesn't mean that there's absolutely no characterization in cape comics, it just means that if you're a manga reader first then it's a huge shift in terms of mindsight. Cape comics develop their protagonists and supporting casts in fits and jumps. It's a big change.
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Oct 30, 2017 19:25
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TFRazorsaw posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBrPQYTuvMI There was like 2 or 3 crossovers in the New Scooby Doo movies back in the 70's. That was the hour long cartoon that had Scooby and gang also team up with The Harlem Globetrotters and Don Knotts at various points.
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Oct 30, 2017 19:26
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Yeah I know but B&TB getting a new animated ANYTHING six years later is just kind of weird
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Oct 30, 2017 19:30
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TFRazorsaw posted:Yeah I know but Well, the success of the Adam West videos showed there's a market for more light hearted Batman stuff, and they can't get him to voice anything else. Plus with the films being so grim there's a gap in poo poo you can sell to (the parents of) young children. Ignoring the quality of the Zack Snyder movies, I think that whole direction was a mistake. Can you imagine being the parent of a six year old and having to explain to them they can't go see the Batman vs Superman movie?
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Oct 30, 2017 19:37
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sure but you'd think they'd make a new lighter and softer Batman now that Adam is gone or something instead of going back to the well like this
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Oct 30, 2017 19:38
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I just hope Weird Al shows up again! (Also, hooray, more flapper Harley! I like BaTB's take on her)
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Oct 30, 2017 19:52
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HIJK posted:That's part of my criticism of super hero comics in general. I also think that's why the movies always go back to the origin story script, because they have to introduce the protagonist and make people care about them as if they were 3 dimensional people.
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Oct 30, 2017 19:55
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TFRazorsaw posted:sure but you'd think they'd make a new lighter and softer Batman now that Adam is gone or something instead of going back to the well like this It takes time to develop something from scratch, it's also possible this came from the people in charge of Scooby-Doo, maybe they're a fan of BatB? That section has to be making decent money sense there's like a dozen or something DTV Scooby-Doo videos using the current designs and voice actors. They're also making more DTV movies in the Timm/Dini style directed by Bruce Timm. I'm sure there's some people somewhere whose job is to create a new Batman cartoon for television, but that takes a while. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 19:56
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TFRazorsaw posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBrPQYTuvMI Because sometimes dreams come true
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Oct 30, 2017 19:57
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Endless Mike posted:You do not need an origin story to care about characters. This is definitely true! But the people who make cape movies keep doing it because in their view it's the most reliable way to make the audience care. (And because origin stories are easy.)
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Oct 30, 2017 19:58
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TFRazorsaw posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBrPQYTuvMI YES YES YES GOD IS REAL
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Oct 30, 2017 20:00
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Scooby has a done a lot with Batman and DC. 
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Oct 30, 2017 20:19
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MonsterEnvy posted:Scooby has a done a lot with Batman recently Is Freddy a Wondertwin? who's the other twin?
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Oct 30, 2017 20:20
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TFRazorsaw posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBrPQYTuvMI I hope this addition to the Scooby-Doo Expanded Universe means that we can get a Brave and the Bold crossover with WWE.
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Oct 30, 2017 20:30
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I'm not sure if that one Scooby episode where Adam West guest-starred as Batman was my first exposure to Batman but it's bound to be close to it.
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Oct 30, 2017 20:32
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Skwirl posted:See, but Squirrel Girl is mediocre trash because they didn't spend half a year explaining the backstory to Koi Boi and Chipmunk Hunk. I would unironically love to see the shitstorm that happens during an arc about a trans character That and since bendis just straight up disappeared the only other trans character in the marvel u for absolutely no reason (I'm gonna guess transphobia) I'd like to see some rep
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Oct 30, 2017 20:33
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Remember, Batman BaTB already had a scooby doo cross over. With Weird Al!
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Oct 30, 2017 20:42
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site posted:I would unironically love to see the shitstorm that happens during an arc about a trans character Who was the trans character Bendis disappeared? He didn't kill that mole kid, did he? Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 20:45
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Angela's wife Sera
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Oct 30, 2017 20:46
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Lightning Lord posted:Anyway I hope you stick around. One caution, I've noticed that in general comics people are terrible at making suggestions for manga people, and it often ends up souring people on the whole deal. Like when ADTRW and BSS were trying to do that cultural exchange program with the two threads, the BSS manga suggestion thread is still active but the ADTRW comics thread went down in flames, probably partially because it opened with suggesting Transformers comics. Those particular comics are pretty alright but it's an odd footing to start on, it's like if the manga thread had an op pushing Super Sentai manga or something IDK. Of course this is all exacerbated by many comics fans thinking one size fits all suggestions are the way to go with everything. If you want some suggestions I'm willing to offer them but you'd have to tell me the kinds of things you like first. I tried reading Batman Arkham Knight and Dead Pool. Dead Pool was alright while Batman was boring. I tend to like adventure stories with nice overarching plots. HIJK posted:I read Spider-Gwen. It was shallow and it sucked. They tried to pack complex storylines into single issues without taking advantage of the premise. For example they had a black female Captain America, which is a cool premise! And then they packed her entire backstory and character development in 3 pages, didn't develop her at all, didn't give her any of her own stories, didn't use her in any kind of serious storytelling attempt but still expected the audience to treat her as a three dimensional character even though the creators themselves refused to do that. I can't even tell you her name without a wiki. I don't want to sound ignorant but you literally hit the nail on the head to as of why I could never get into comics. For reference my favorite manga by far is One Piece so...yeah.
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Oct 30, 2017 21:13
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If you're looking for a superhero comic that's sort of like manga, inasmuch as it is a continuing series by a single creative team which seldom retcons anything and doesn't become bogged down in crossovers... I guess you might give Invincible a try?
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Oct 30, 2017 21:28
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punk rebel ecks posted:I tried reading Batman Arkham Knight and Dead Pool. Dead Pool was alright while Batman was boring. One Piece is the king of great character stories, it's great. If you still want to try cape comics I would recommend Chris Claremont's X-men run. You get the nice compact one issue stories that cape comics are great at but you also have overarching plots, building character development, and the benefit of having one writer + his team being the sole architect of the series and characters for several years, so you don't get jarring switch ups from a new writer coming in. The run starts in the 70s so you have to be willing to tolerare hokey 70s-isms but so far Claremont's X-Men is the best match if you're coming from manga IMO. The other thing I could recommend is Garth Ennis's Punisher MAX run because it's a great serial but those are considerably darker and you have to be in the right mood. What I've learned about cape comics is that you have to identify which author you like and follow them around from title to title to experience consistent quality. Anyway you can PM me if you want to discuss it more.
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Oct 30, 2017 21:49
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Wheat Loaf posted:If you're looking for a superhero comic that's sort of like manga, inasmuch as it is a continuing series by a single creative team which seldom retcons anything and doesn't become bogged down in crossovers... I guess you might give Invincible a try? HIJK posted:One Piece is the king of great character stories, it's great. Good recommendations. Thanks.
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Oct 30, 2017 21:57
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I mean, if you want a great noirish small run from comics the Long Halloween won't steer you wrong.
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Oct 30, 2017 22:00
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bunnyofdoom posted:I mean, if you want a great noirish small run from comics the Long Halloween won't steer you wrong. Aside from the fact that it doesn't make any loving sense at all.
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Oct 30, 2017 22:02
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punk rebel ecks posted:For reference my favorite manga by far is One Piece so...yeah. I'd go with team books like the aforementioned Claremont X-Men. If you like that, you might like New Teen Titans although that has aged worse than Claremont X-Men. Other than that: if you like how weird One Piece can be, then Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol is pretty good. Morrison also has a good run on JLA that's worth checking out. Kurt Busiek's Avengers is a classic, Geoff Johns on Teen Titans is a bit more approachable than New Teen Titans for somebody not used to older comics yet, and the Abnett Guardians of the Galaxy has some pretty good stuff in it. If you don't mind going very far back, then Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four is a great read. Other than that: Chew has that One Piece thing where absurdly dumb sounding powers get used in really cool ways. Valiant might be an option to look into since it offers a way more focused universe than DC or Marvel. Some ongoing creator-owned stuff that are pretty adventure heavy would be: Manifest Destiny and Saga.
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Oct 30, 2017 22:46
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Roth posted:I'd go with team books like the aforementioned Claremont X-Men. If you like that, you might like New Teen Titans although that has aged worse than Claremont X-Men. Hellboy and bprd are other series that you may like along with Astro City
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Oct 30, 2017 23:03
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