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As far as I can tell, Jesse Singal is a leftish jouranlist who loves to Just Ask Questions about trans people. http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/07/whats-missing-from-the-conversation-about-transgender-kids.html
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Oct 31, 2017 20:37
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, I generally like Contra, but one of the things (maybe the only thing?) I disagree with her about is that she seems to be kind of naively optimistic about the value of dialogue with certain types of people. As she's shown in her debate videos (with the characters she plays), she understands most of the main counterarguments against this, but just (in my opinion) happens to fall on the wrong side of them. I don't think that's true at all. Like the Nazi debate video makes it pretty clear that it's pointless to debate Nazis in most cases because they argue in bad faith and that it was mostly critical of all the centrists who give super shitheels platforms and treat them as deserving of equal time. I feel like it's kinda lovely to bring the hammer down on someone for having the unmitigated gall to... let someone lovely interview them. Like seriously, she had an interview what the gently caress why is this an issue. Also yes Contra came out as trans shortly after the genderqueer video.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:38
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FantasticExtrusion posted:What the gently caress is this garbage? Your posts OP, hope that helps.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:40
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Glagha posted:I don't think that's true at all. Like the Nazi debate video makes it pretty clear that it's pointless to debate Nazis in most cases because they argue in bad faith and that it was mostly critical of all the centrists who give super shitheels platforms and treat them as deserving of equal time. I feel like it's kinda lovely to bring the hammer down on someone for having the unmitigated gall to... let someone lovely interview them. Like seriously, she had an interview what the gently caress why is this an issue. Yeah, that's a fair point, I remember the video sort of mocking the way the mainstream media deals with people like Richard Spencer, and it was pretty unequivocally on the "it's dumb to treat these people with this level of respect and give them a platform like this" side of the argument.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:42
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Glagha posted:I don't think that's true at all. Like the Nazi debate video makes it pretty clear that it's pointless to debate Nazis in most cases because they argue in bad faith and that it was mostly critical of all the centrists who give super shitheels platforms and treat them as deserving of equal time. I feel like it's kinda lovely to bring the hammer down on someone for having the unmitigated gall to... let someone lovely interview them. Like seriously, she had an interview what the gently caress why is this an issue. And in the case of TERFs I think she could benfit from extending that belief further. TERFs aren't "problematic", they're simply bigots who dress in the trappings of modern politeness. They are very much in the reasonable hitler camp, trying to leverage cred as "respectable" people to push a loving lovely agenda based entirely on their instinctive prejudice.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:42
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It's clear to me that we aren't going to agree. I don't think our methods and ideas are mutually exclusive. I understand that you believe those subs were normalizing racism. I agree in the capacity that they normalize racism - to racists - where I disagree is that I see that as self-separation, self-defeating because it alienates people who are trying to justify their own racism. It's all or nothing that way. You wanna be racist, cool, you get to hang out with all caps n-word spam guy in every thread. You still sure you think black people are genetically stupid? Here's why his entire premise is useless because here's what's on the IQ test and oh look, it's something an African simply would not have encountered. And they'll have some retort to that; but somebody just browsing sees the point, the, counterpoint and the extremists all in one place. That's a lot less attractive than an echo chamber.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:44
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Nobody cares gently caress off.jackofarcades posted:As far as I can tell, Jesse Singal is a leftish jouranlist who loves to Just Ask Questions about trans people. Yeeeeep.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:46
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OwlFancier posted:And in the case of TERFs I think she could benfit from extending that belief further. But she didn't debate a TERF. She didn't give a TERF a platform. She let a TERF talk to her and write the things down. Write nice things about her in fact.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:46
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FantasticExtrusion posted:It's clear to me that we aren't going to agree. I don't think our methods and ideas are mutually exclusive. I understand that you believe those subs were normalizing racism. The entire way reddit works means that they don't see counterpoints because counterpoints get voted down, especially in overtly racist subreddits. And lol that people need to "justify" racism, you give people a place to express it openly and they don't bother to justify it they just join in. Justification is what people do when pressed. Glagha posted:But she didn't debate a TERF. She didn't give a TERF a platform. She let a TERF talk to her and write the things down. Write nice things about her in fact. Something I most certainly wouldn't do. If a TERF writes something nice down about you then they're trying to use you as "one of the good ones" or as deflection when someone calls them out as the bigoted piece of poo poo they are. gently caress 'em, give them nothing but poo poo.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:47
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I guess, but I think letting a TERF signal boost you is way different than signal boosting a TERF.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:51
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The two aren't mutually exclusive. Contra gets published, the publisher gets "I can talk to transpeople like they're real humans" cred.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:52
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Goon completely fails at arguing for their stupid idea on a forum with no nazis, thinks arguing about something with actual nazis could have some benefit.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:52
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I don't understand why we cant try to debate nazis and punch them as well at the same time. They have nothing worthwhile to say. They got nothing we need to defend and they need someone to poo poo them down in a chair and be told how the world works. Why is this so loving hard? I know I was defending nazi jokes earlier, but if they carry signs and go to protests then there is no loving doubt.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:59
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Brass knuckles with "HITLER SUCKS" embossed on them.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:00
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Midig posted:I don't understand why we cant try to debate nazis and punch them as well at the same time. They have nothing worthwhile to say. They got nothing we need to defend and they need someone to poo poo them down in a chair and be told how the world works. Why is this so loving hard? I know I was defending nazi jokes earlier, but if they wear signs and go to protests then there is no loving doubt. The Nazi worldview is anti-intellectual to the point that debate with a Nazi is actually pointless. You can't convince them through logic or pathos, only intimidate them into submission. If you do choose to debate a Nazi, and you understand them, you are doing so with the purpose of convincing onlookers, not the Nazi proper. And even then, you have to deal with the common Nazi debate tactic of changing the topic and arguing ridiculous strawmen and red herrings with the purpose of getting you off topic so that you never actually can disprove the Nazi arguments. So if you aren't a very solid debater, you probably should just stick to punching them and calling them shitheads and keeping them out of areas of common discourse.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:04
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I feel it necessary to point out that the "convince the onlookers" approach can be done more directly, and is in fact exactly what pressuring platforms to remove nazis is an example of. You are ignoring the actual nazis and appealing to bystanders to take action against them.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:09
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Madmarker posted:The Nazi worldview is anti-intellectual to the point that debate with a Nazi is actually pointless. You can't convince them through logic or pathos, only intimidate them into submission. If you do choose to debate a Nazi, and you understand them, you are doing so with the purpose of convincing onlookers, not the Nazi proper. And even then, you have to deal with the common Nazi debate tactic of changing the topic and arguing ridiculous strawmen and red herrings with the purpose of getting you off topic so that you never actually can disprove the Nazi arguments. So if you aren't a very solid debater, you probably should just stick to punching them and calling them shitheads and keeping them out of areas of common discourse. My perspective is not that this is easy, but that it is worth using all possible methods at once. Unless you think it will make them stronger by them abusing the false balance bias (not a fallacy), one of the big reasons that evolutionary biologists don't debate with creationists that often. EDIT: Such a debate would work if you could point the light at them. All things considered their attempts at not seeming like nazies are pretty weak. Here is a clip of Richard Spencer not wanting to denounce Hitler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cKNhjQHWFo Midig fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 21:11
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Midig posted:My perspective is not that this is easy, but that it is worth using all possible methods at once. Unless you think it will make them stronger by them abusing the false balance fallacy, one of the big reasons that evolutionary biologists don't debate with creationists that often. I think it's definitely a factor, by debating a point you acknowledge that it is debate worthy, whereas I would argue that the nazi question was settled with the second world war, and I would focus on using the latent inertia of that view and all the propaganda that went into creating it, to keep it that way.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:13
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Midig posted:My perspective is not that this is easy, but that it is worth using all possible methods at once. Unless you think it will make them stronger by them abusing the false balance bias (not a fallacy), one of the big reasons that evolutionary biologists don't debate with creationists that often. It's pretty much the same logic, yeah. You can make things that explain and rebuke Nazi talking points, but engaging them directly is an exercise in futility because they view the world as a conflict between weak and strong, and believe reasoning arguments are a tool of the weak.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:20
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OwlFancier posted:TERFs aren't "problematic", they're simply bigots who dress in the trappings of modern politeness.  about them doing so.All of her other stuff is cool, the art and animation, the VHEMT stuff, the ecology and environment stuff, the anti-copyright stuff. It's like if Eddie Izzard suddenly started praising The Bell Curve. For starters I don't know why someone who believes having kids is wrong gives a poo poo what genitals people have as long as they're not using them to procreate. I've seen a couple of other less prominent antinatalist people go this route too, and it's baffling. Maybe that's where she picked it up from, idk.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:23
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FantasticExtrusion posted:SA of all places should know that while moderation is the key to a healthy discourse, a friendly community; bans aren't an effective way to make people leave, change their opinions, or stop posting them. actually people get permabanned all the time FantasticExtrusion posted:And they'll have some retort to that; but somebody just browsing sees the point, the, counterpoint and the extremists all in one place. the place where people go when they get banned from something awful for being shitheads is something sensitive/SASS, which is a way dead forum full of incredibly obnoxious racists. nobody browses there. it is a garbage dump boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 21:28
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Goon Danton posted:It's pretty much the same logic, yeah. You can make things that explain and rebuke Nazi talking points, but engaging them directly is an exercise in futility because they view the world as a conflict between weak and strong, and believe reasoning arguments are a tool of the weak. Ok, so what options are we left with? We cant depend on Facebook, Twitter or Steam to shut down Dank Kekistan memes and horrible internet groups. Punching helps a bit, but they also use it as justification for their cause. Debates give them legitimacy. They abuse policies designed to create tolerance.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:28
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Midig posted:Ok, so what options are we left with? We cant depend on Facebook, Twitter or Steam to shut down Dank Kekistan memes and horrible internet groups. Punching helps a bit, but they also use it as justification for their cause. Debates give them legitimacy. They abuse policies designed to create tolerance. Eclipse them, get other people engaged with better politics, create a proper alternative to dissatisfaction with the status quo other than being a nazi. Explain to anyone who'll listen that it's not foreigners making your life poo poo it's rich people. Disrupt the right's ability to organize and organize better yourself.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:30
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OwlFancier posted:Eclipse them, get other people engaged with better politics, create a proper alternative to dissatisfaction with the status quo other than being a nazi. Explain to anyone who'll listen that it's not foreigners making your life poo poo it's rich people. Bernie failed though. Is there anyone else to rally around?
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Oct 31, 2017 21:31
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Midig posted:Ok, so what options are we left with? We cant depend on Facebook, Twitter or Steam to shut down Dank Kekistan memes and horrible internet groups. Punching helps a bit, but they also use it as justification for their cause. Debates give them legitimacy. They abuse policies designed to create tolerance. Step One : Murder There is no Step Two
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Oct 31, 2017 21:32
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Midig posted:Bernie failed though. Is there anyone else to rally around? You don't need a person to rally people to better politics, people are produced to lead movements, not the other way around. Though Sanders doesn't seem to have given up so I don't really see why you should drop him.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:40
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Thing is that some fundamental part of me wants to think debates will do it. We can change opinions and slowly make things better. We have had recent victories such as awareness for trans people and rights for gay people etc. https://youarenotsosmart.com/2017/08/05/yanss-107-how-debate-leads-to-progress-and-social-change-no-matter-who-wins/ Even bigoted right-wing Republicans can bend a bit. But alt-right people and Nazis would probably just call them cuckservatives. I have never wanted censorship in my life, but shutting down 4chan, Kekistan groups etc. starts to sound really tempting. Large companies like Facebook, Twitter, Steam should shut down these thinly veiled whistleblowing strategies.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:51
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Conservatives move because the argument was won against everyone else, they're the last to move but they can be pushed to accept the pressure from the rest of society. But nazis aren't conservatives, they're radicals in the opposite direction. You're not going to convince me to become right wing and you're not going to convince a nazi to reform most of the time.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:54
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Midig posted:Ok, so what options are we left with? We cant depend on Facebook, Twitter or Steam to shut down Dank Kekistan memes and horrible internet groups. Punching helps a bit, but they also use it as justification for their cause. Debates give them legitimacy. They abuse policies designed to create tolerance. There isn't one weird trick or anything. The Nazi problem is three problems: how do you deal with the already-radicalized lost causes, how do you deal with people who are leaning that way but might still be salvaged, and how do you stop the tendency before it starts. Dealing with the lost causes is what we've been focused on in these discussions. Punching and disrupting their meetings helps, pressuring places like Facebook and Twitter and Steam to shut them down or risk a PR nightmare helps, doxxing helps. Anything that makes it difficult and costly for them to be out in public, since the best case scenario for them is to have them think their horrible thoughts in private without wanting to risk speaking out. Dealing with the marginal cases is where actual understanding of the Nazi mindset and arguments come in handy. Learn how they lure people in, learn the counterarguments to the "black on black crime" bullshit and the "but my ethnostate" bullshit. If they're drawn to the movement through the kekistan / shock value / ironic racism edgelord poo poo, a sudden burst of sustained anger from people who's opinion they actually care about (peers, not authority figures) helps. If they're drawn to it because of a general sense that our society is hosed up in a fundamental way and they're looking for an explanation, introduce them to non-mainstream theories that don't demand genocide as the only path to utopia.   Dealing with the systemic issues that lend themselves to creating nazis is the hardest part, because they're, well, systemic. There's a reason why fascists draw on the idea of banks and other elites preying on the innocent and feeling no loyalty to their country or their fellow human beings, and that's because those elites actually exist. The fascist simply misidentifies the culprit, often intentionally. As long as those power structures are in place to exploit and dehumanize people, people will look for a scapegoat, and the fascist will be happy to provide one. Midig posted:Bernie failed though. Is there anyone else to rally around? Don't put your faith in a lone hero, for exactly this reason. Understand your situation and find a path to a better future, and push for that. Bring in allies where you can find them, but don't think one person will come along and solve all your problems, and don't think it will be one big climactic fight and then victory. Apocalyptic and messianic thinking are comforting, but not useful.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:56
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Ok, so to entertain my wishful thinking again. Is there any way we can use debate to our advantage? Is it possible to get them with their pants down and hold their balls to the fire? David Pakman seemed to do a good job of this in his interview with Richard Spencer. If you can make it easy for those seeing it to make the right choice, I hope it might do good. If we ask: -Do you think Hitler is a bad person? -Should whites be separates from non-whites? And they try to squeel their way out of it, don't we win automatically? Midig fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 22:05
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If you can find one that's a really bad debater you can sometimes make them look like idiots, carlgon getting annihilated by Kristi Winters maybe counts, when they put Nick Griffin on Question Time probably does, but if you do it with anyone who knows how to carry a crowd you risk giving them more exposure. It's not really debate to be honest it's angling to get them to humiliate themselves in public and for that, Spencey getting belted in the head on camera works basically as well. Disrupting the cred of their idols is useful, it disillusions some of them. But your goal isn't honest debate because you're not looking to win the argument, you're looking to make the nazi look like a loving moron. They don't respect winning arguments but they do care if they come out looking like jokes. Midig posted:I hope it might do good. If we ask: It entirely depends how well they answer it, some of them will have answers to those questions that don't sound immediately repellent to people not in the know, the famous fourteen words for example. Remember that you can't rely on those questions having automatically toxic answers. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 22:08
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Yardbomb posted:Yeah basically. It's not some 'taboo' it's just fruitless with vast piles of evidence to back that up, because I and people like me have undoubtedly collectively tried millions of times and guess how many ever turned out good. My heart would break if she went full Laci Green with TERFs, she and Riley Dennis were huge influences on me to come out.
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Oct 31, 2017 22:15
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OwlFancier posted:If you can find one that's a really bad debater you can sometimes make them look like idiots, carlgon getting annihilated by Kristi Winters maybe counts, when they put Nick Griffin on Question Time probably does, but if you do it with anyone who knows how to carry a crowd you risk giving them more exposure. Tons of idiots get taken in by “but the Japanese have Japan and black people have Africa. What’s wrong with white people having their own land too?” Spencer donked that one hard in Florida, though. He was asked to defend his “peaceful ethnic cleansing” line and immediately defaulted to saying that he knew it could be done because it was being carried out against the United States at that very moment.
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Oct 31, 2017 22:17
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Glazier posted:My heart would break if she went full Laci Green with TERFs, she and Riley Dennis were huge influences on me to come out. She’s too smart for that. She lives the kind of intellectual fearlessness that could never turn away from truth, no matter how unpalatable. I think that’s how she figured out she was trans in the first place. She’s the very figure of a philosopher, even though that commitment to truth caused her to give up academic philosophy. Laci’s a weak-minded people-pleaser. She could never completely escape her Mormonism.
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Oct 31, 2017 22:20
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business hammocks posted:black people have Africa 
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Oct 31, 2017 22:21
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i guess defranco and chrisray got their fans to dogpile this small youtuber because she called them out on their racial #notallmen bullshit: https://twitter.com/marinashutup/status/924854098331144192
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Oct 31, 2017 22:21
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Midig posted:Ok, so to entertain my wishful thinking again. Is there any way we can use debate to our advantage? Is it possible to get them with their pants down and hold their balls to the fire? David Pakman seemed to do a good job of this in his interview with Richard Spencer. If you can make it easy for those seeing it to make the right choice, I hope it might do good. If we ask: If you really have to debate them (don't), the best way is to find times they "said the quiet part loud" and ask them to defend/renounce them. IE: "Oh I'm not a Nazi, I just think everyone deserves their own ethnostate." "Really? So here's a clip of you talking to the Daily Stormer and saying [explicit call for genocide goes here], do you still stand by these remarks?" You have to actually have evidence of them doing that at the ready, since they'll try to twist the argument into whether or not you're making things up. They have a hard time straight up renouncing open Nazi poo poo, because they value strength and lying or changing your views to get out of an embarrassing question is loving pathetic.
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Oct 31, 2017 22:26
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Goon Danton posted:If you really have to debate them (don't), the best way is to find times they "said the quiet part loud" and ask them to defend/renounce them. IE: "Oh I'm not a Nazi, I just think everyone deserves their own ethnostate." "Really? So here's a clip of you talking to the Daily Stormer and saying [explicit call for genocide goes here], do you still stand by these remarks?" You have to actually have evidence of them doing that at the ready, since they'll try to twist the argument into whether or not you're making things up. They have a hard time straight up renouncing open Nazi poo poo, because they value strength and lying or changing your views to get out of an embarrassing question is loving pathetic. “It was obviously satire.”
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Oct 31, 2017 22:29
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Groovelord Neato posted:i guess defranco and chrisray got their fans to dogpile this small youtuber because she called them out on their racial #notallmen bullshit: Right in the middle of the national conversation about powerful men harassing less powerful women, how did this seem like a good idea?
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Oct 31, 2017 22:32
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she didn't even @ defranco so he had to search for her tweets lmao
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Oct 31, 2017 22:38
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