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fritzgryphon posted:facts on the ground Riddle me this: Why would Israelis prefer to live in areas 'latticed' with hostile neighbors. Wouldn't a border with Israelis on one side, and Palestinians on the other make more sense from a security standpoint? Particularly with an ever-growing anti-settlement global sentiment?
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Oct 31, 2017 19:17
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I honestly believe at this point that we’re far more likely to see a continued long, prolonged ethnic cleansing than any reversal in US policy. There is no Palestine or even Arab lobby that can hold a candle to the groups that lobby on behalf of Israel.
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Oct 31, 2017 19:29
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FlamingLiberal posted:I honestly believe at this point that we’re far more likely to see a continued long, prolonged ethnic cleansing than any reversal in US policy. There is no Palestine or even Arab lobby that can hold a candle to the groups that lobby on behalf of Israel. I didn't say it was likely, merely that it's the only possibility for change.
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Oct 31, 2017 19:31
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Cool thanks. The way you explain it finally clicked for me; before just reading 1-sided narratives. Sorry to ask so many questions, but is there any conceivable trigger from the US to drop Israel?VideoGameVet posted:Riddle me this: B/c Israel wants the area for strategic depth? Couldn't it end with the status quo slowing cooling off? Average Joe P. will live and work in his gated community and do Papers Please when he goes to Israel to study or watch the football game or whatever. Over 200 years this normalizes to the point where Joe can vote in Israel (without needing any pee-pee surgery). Edit, too slow: Wouldn't an active ethnic cleansing be hard without some huge pretext? fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 19:33
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fritzgryphon posted:Wouldn't an active ethnic cleansing be hard without some huge pretext? It's occurring even right now so no. ed: gotcha fritzgryphon posted:Cool thanks. The way you explain it finally clicked for me; before just reading 1-sided narratives. Sorry to ask so many questions, but is there any conceivable trigger from the US to drop Israel? Not really apart from generational change. Obama despised Bibi and is opposed to Israel's many bad behaviours and he still greenlit unprecedented security cooperation with Israel and expanded aid.
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Oct 31, 2017 19:36
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American Jews seem to be (very slowly) cooling on Israel, especially younger ones who are much less likely to put up with the jingoism. We progressive, anti-occupation Jews are still small in number but growing in strength. 
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Oct 31, 2017 19:44
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Disinterested posted:It's occurring even right now so no. Cleansing as in stealing land and boxing the PA into a smaller and smaller space. But, the PA population is 4 mil, not decreasing, and it'd have to be made to go down with bang-bang at some point. Hard to justify if 3/4 the people who work on your farm are Palestinian. Without Olympic-sized mass graves or at least enough 'splosions to make people flee, Palestinians get to vote in 2217. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 19:48
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fritzgryphon posted:Cleansing as in stealing land and boxing the PA into a smaller and smaller space. Ethnic cleansing =/= genocide, necessarily. Ethnic cleansing can just be forcing people out of an area or forcing them to abandon their culture, religion and language.
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Oct 31, 2017 19:51
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Disinterested posted:Ethnic cleansing =/= genocide, necessarily. Ethnic cleansing can just be forcing people out of an area or forcing them to abandon their culture, religion and language. Without forcible removal, that'd eventually be assimilation? Unless they get gently displaced a few feet at a time toward the Jordanian border, then covertly swept across it. Or mass emigration, but that doesn't seem to be happening. If your countrymen can't hold territory and they don't want to/can't leave, assimilation is p much the best outcome, no? Maybe Joe P. will even be Israel president in 2217.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:07
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fritzgryphon posted:Without forcible removal, that'd eventually be assimilation? Have you heard of apartheid my friend.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:08
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That's when you get to be a disenfranchised underclass. Doesn't it end when the overclass exploits you and your children long enough that the underclass comes to resemble/intermingle with the overclass? Barring hot conflict maintaining a separation. The overclass not wanting hot conflict because 3/4 of their employees are the underclass. I think 200 years will be more than enough. It took half as long for blacks to vote in the US. edit: Israel/PA should be even easier because the people look visibly similar? fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 20:21
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fritzgryphon posted:B/c Israel wants the area for strategic depth? But then you need more colonies to give strategic depth to your first colonies, and eventually you reach the Pacific Ocean.
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Oct 31, 2017 20:41
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fritzgryphon posted:Cool thanks. The way you explain it finally clicked for me; before just reading 1-sided narratives. Sorry to ask so many questions, but is there any conceivable trigger from the US to drop Israel? 2nd time I've seen this. US education is really in the shitter, isn't it? Khitan (Arabic: ختان) or Khatna (Arabic: ختنة) is the term for male circumcision[1][2] carried out as an Islamic rite by Muslims. Male circumcision is widespread in Islam and accepted as established practice by all Islamic schools of jurisprudence.[3] It is considered a sign of belonging to the wider Islamic community.[4]
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Oct 31, 2017 21:06
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VideoGameVet posted:2nd time I've seen this. US education is really in the shitter, isn't it? I failed the Canadian system. One less hurdle to the overclass! Also: Wikipedia: Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israel's claim to sovereignty. They became permanent residents instead.[13] They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.[14] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel They realize if they can vote in Israel that helps them destroy Israel, right? I know it's not for president, but still.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:41
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fritzgryphon posted:They realize if they can vote in Israel that helps them destroy Israel, right? I know it's not for president, but still. Any Israeli Arab that is not antisemitic and zealot looks at countries surrounding Israel and makes a choice not to destroy a place within 1000 kilometers that is not a shithole. BTW thread full of antisemitic cunts is not a best place for information about Israel
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Oct 31, 2017 23:13
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Lady Morgaga posted:BTW thread full of antisemitic cunts is not a best place for information about Israel T-they dared to say bad things about my boyfriend Bibi and the holy land 
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Oct 31, 2017 23:15
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Palestine can't be a real country if it got owned this hard. Even before WWI it was just owned by Syria. If anyone self identifies as Palestinian they are p much asking to be owned. I am Ukrainian so I know you gotta cut your losses if your race gets owned too much. Just learn Russian or move to an easy mode country. I don't think my grandparents made the right choice vodka is so expensive here. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 23:49
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https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/925298827627606016
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Nov 1, 2017 00:35
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Lady Morgaga posted:. All criticism of Israel is antisemitism.
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Nov 1, 2017 03:08
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Nov 1, 2017 03:09
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Lady Morgaga posted:. Please don't conflate all Jewish people with the State of Israel.
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Nov 1, 2017 03:50
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i'm a semitic oval office
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Nov 1, 2017 03:55
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VitalSigns posted:Please don't conflate all Jewish people with the State of Israel. If all Jews moved to the state of Israel they would make a population big enough to absorb the Palestinians with full rights without diluting the brand too much. Diaspora Jews are directly responsible for the apartheid. Boo! This keeps happening as long as some people choose to ignore the score. Palestine was always the subject of some empire, and ceased to even be an Arab province after the turn of the century. Then Israel, as by-definition ethnostate, was a reality as soon as the Powers stroked the pen. Then they were physically defeated by the Jewish invasion, which was clearly unstoppable with western support. When some Palestinians survived in place, they chose to believe that they had halted the invasion, and not that Israel had to pull it's punches for optics. From then to the present it's been an awkward standoff where Palestinians ignore the need to flee or capitulate fully, and Israel tries to convince them without looking too ogrish. Some people still choose to close their eyes, cover their ears and babble that Israel isn't a thing that exists, and believe if they hold out they'll get land, money and self-rule because reasons. When offered tiny autonomous reservations and consolation cash (which is the best a defeated group ever gets), they turn it down in favor of The Dream. Some loonie stabs a bunch of people, and then every other Palestinian has to carry five pieces of ID and go through three checkpoints to get to work. Of course it's not 'right', and devastating if you and your family are on the wrong side. But if you wanted any kind of future, you'd accept reality and work toward a realistic best-case scenario. Or become a freedom fighter. You want to be ready for when Syria comes to liberate you!  edit: As if Assad and the other kings aren't pleased as punch that the Palestinian problem is containing Israel to some extent. Isn't it nice of them to keep the Dream alive, and occasionally give you weapons! fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 17:06
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missing a kind of important point there, fritz they tried accepting what Israel offered, and Israel bombed the poo poo out of them anyway on the grounds that if they kept to the terms of the agreement Israel might have to start thinking about keeping up its side of the bargain Israel will not accept full capitulation because they'd have to treat them as human beings with civil rights then, and as our friendly local Likud outlet will inform you, that would destroy the state of Israel the current state of affairs is as it is by the active choice of Israel, and they will not accept any change to the status quo
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Nov 1, 2017 17:13
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The deal would basically have to be status quo plus cost savings for Israel. The security can't be cheap?
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Nov 1, 2017 17:19
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^^^ Israel wants the land, so any agreement that lets the Palestinians stay and prevents Israel from taking more land in the future isn't going to be viewed favorably by Israel. Also, even if you ignore the fact that no capitulation would really be adequate in Israel's eyes, it's kind of hosed up to remove morality from the equation and just say "well it's irrational for this group that was unjustly attacked to not fully capitulate" instead of condemning the party responsible for the situation in the first place. It reminds me of hakimashou's bizarre literal "might = right" posts.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:21
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fritzgryphon posted:The deal would basically have to be status quo plus cost savings for Israel. The security can't be cheap? not thinking it through, my man. not having the Palestinian Threat to fearmonger about -IS- the cost of peace Likud is not willing to pay. there are massive domestic inequality issues in Israel even before you get to that whole pesky "Are Arabs Actually People" question, and Likud maintains its tenuous grasp on power solely through fearmongering about how Only Likud Can Protect You. a genuine effort to bring about peace, from Likud, is Likud slitting its own throat politically. for which reason Likud's current leader is a man who was caught on tape bragging about how he totally ignored all Israel's commitments to the previous peace process. sure, it's more expensive, but name the last time a right wing government gave a solitary gently caress about the cost in dollars on them getting to stay in power one more day.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:29
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There's got to be some land they don't want, and a reduction in security costs would justify some token reparations. Isn't the main divide between the two groups (besides religeon) the perceived threat? Basically like how native reservations ended up here. Once the remaining natives were no longer a material threat, it was fine to leave them with a good deal of (unwanted) land, autonomy and an allowance. Ze Pollack posted:not thinking it through, my man. not having the Palestinian Threat to fearmonger about -IS- the cost of peace Likud is not willing to pay. Good point. So everyone in the region uses the Palestinians as some kind of pawn? Something should happen soon, the dome is gathering dust. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 17:38
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the other, significantly larger existential problem for Israel is that having optimized their army for fighting Hamas, they have made it competitive with Saudi Arabia in terms of just how hopelessly incompetent it is fighting someone with comparable equipment. it turns soldiers taught to believe a tank is the invincible lynchpin of an urban advance, and not something that is one guy with a rocket launcher from being a burning deathtrap? they do not do so hot when they go up against people equipped with something more than thrown rocks. the traditional face-saving strategy in this situation is to refocus the nation on a new existential threat while the last one gets integrated, but, well. Israel is 100% in favor of what ISIS is doing from a geopolitical perspective- gently caress up Assad, gently caress up Iran's fledgling client state in Iraq, they'll take that every day of the week and twice on the sabbath- and they got pretty brutally embarrassed the last time they gave Lebanon a poke. Likud does not have an option that is not continuing to ramp up anti-Palestinian operations. there is no way out for them, and nothing Palestinians can offer them that will change that state of affairs.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:54
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You seem to be missing the major point - what the gently caress is in it for Palestinians.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:55
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Disinterested posted:You seem to be missing the major point - what the gently caress is in it for Palestinians. ostensibly that Israel will promise we'll stop killing them for being, and we quote, "cockroaches." that Israel's prime minister is on record bragging about how he refused to consider any agreement with the palestinians binding kinda renders that promise a coin with little value.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:59
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Disinterested posted:You seem to be missing the major point - what the gently caress is in it for Palestinians. Gradually be less of a pawn, to fewer players, and build a more prosperous life by infinitesimally small degrees? They seem pretty doomed. Still think best option is emigrate or become a Jew. Or re-brand as a Disney theme park (make a sweet roller coaster over the Dead Sea). Edit: Or at least become ironic Jew. Everyone puts on a Yarmaluke and grows curly sideburns. When stopped by Israeli police they argue, in over the top Yiddish, that they recognize Israel, but that Palestine is Israel and vice versa. Hold service at the temple and play 'La Cucaracha'. If you are doomed that hard you should have fun with it. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 18:08
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They can't leave and they're doomed to live in apartheid and every indication is Israel is growing more unfriendly. The young generation of Israelis is more right wing on the Palestinian issue than their forebears. All they can do is hold out for some deliverance.
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Nov 1, 2017 18:40
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fritzgryphon posted:Still think best option is emigrate or become a Jew. The good people in Israel are making sure that both these options are forever closed to them.
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Nov 1, 2017 18:45
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Which party can deliver them? They are useful in their current state. Even if God descended to deliver them to the promised land, the other actors would prevent it. Cat Mattress posted:The good people in Israel are making sure that both these options are forever closed to them. Ok, maybe fight then? No one will help them, but they do have a decent population. Maybe a grassroots independence war could work. Heck, country's so small they could take Tel Aviv in a day with a human wave.
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Nov 1, 2017 19:10
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fritzgryphon posted:Which party can deliver them? They are useful in their current state. Even if God descended to deliver them to the promised land, the other actors would prevent it. the US is the thing that can deliver them, because without the US' unconditional vast financial and operational support, the occupation is financially unsupportable. Israel's military budget is 20% US aid by volume, and a level of palestinian-hatred that has top government officials calling them "vermin to be exterminated" has still left Likud in a precarious position. they can't really ramp it up any further. as far as fighting them goes? there's a case study on how long it'll take for that to be the conclusion everyone arrives at. it took until the Warsaw Ghetto was 2/3 depopulated for them to decide "better to die fighting than cowering."
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Nov 1, 2017 19:33
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So, no then? Israelis will always be whiter than Palestinians, so the USA will root for them. As for independence war, it's unlikely Israel would lean hard enough to crystalize enough violent sentiment (and if a full-on uprising looked likely, they could just wave the tiniest olive branch to defuse it). Thank you I will stop spamming now after this recap. Ways to advance Palestinian interests // rebuttals 1. Stop USA support of Israel // USA will always support Israel (at least more than Palestine) because they are more similar. 2. Grass roots independence war // Israel is bigger and can defuse uprising by waving tiny olive branch. 3. Annexed by Jordan, Syria or Egypt by force // They will probably be treated worse now. Plus their home is now the front of an active war. 4. Accept apartheid and develop in peace // More useful to Israel as scapegoat. More useful to Arab states as buffer/thorn. 5. Disney theme park // Disney would appropriate and bastardize culture. 6. All Jews are raptured one night and suddenly full Palestine // PA disintegrates into factions and Arab states annex what they can get. Remaining Palestine (if any) is war-torn buffer. 7. Increase terrorism to get concessions from Israel // Aid would be cut off. See 2 and 4. 8. 2 state solution // See 1 and 4. 9. Relocation in Syria or Jordan // See 4. 10. Just go to Canada // Border, coast and air travel restrictions. Lack of money. Not attractive as immigrants. Conflict not hot enough to qualify as refugees. It's almost like you'd need a magic wand to fix this...  OH NO!
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Nov 1, 2017 20:54
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Someone ran over people in New York with a truck yesterday, I don't think the US is going to side with the 'islamist terrorism' side of the israel-palestine conflict any time soon. The Palestinians' one only hope is to renounce violence and terrorism. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 1, 2017 21:26
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hakimashou posted:Someone ran over people in New York with a truck yesterday, I don't think the US is going to side with the 'islamist terrorism' side of the israel-palestine conflict any time soon. Why doesn't it count as terrorism when Israel kills civilians? Like, you might want to seriously think about why you automatically view Palestinian violence as aggressive and Israeli violence as defensive. Even if you ignore the vast difference in magnitude, there's no real logical reason for the dramatic difference in attitude. I mean, the snarky (and probably at least partly true) answer is "racism," but I think that people also have a tendency to inherently view violence committed by an organized military less negatively than violence committed by civilians (which is kind of ironic, because you'd imagine it would be the opposite).
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Nov 1, 2017 21:43
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Nov 1, 2017 21:48
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