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hakimashou posted:Someone ran over people in New York with a truck yesterday, I don't think the US is going to side with the 'islamist terrorism' side of the israel-palestine conflict any time soon. what does the US gain from Israel, hakimashou and how much do we pay them for it
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Nov 1, 2017 21:50
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Ytlaya posted:Why doesn't it count as terrorism when Israel kills civilians? I expect one common way of thinking about it is that terror attacks aim to kill as many civilians as possible, while military attacks aim to avoid civilian casualties. Of course there are counter-examples like strategic bombing in ww2. At the end of the day though, people have to make decisions based on things really are, and its unlikely that attitudes in America toward HAMAS/Al qaeda/ISIS style terrorism is going to change any time soon. Lots of people in here seem to agree that the key to things ever getting better for Palestinians is the US changing its policy. I don't think terrorism will make the US more likely to change its policy. If anything, being the victim of similar kinds of terrorist attacks draws Israel and the US closer together and reinforces the idea that we are on the same side fighting a common foe on different front. I am sure Israel goes out of its way to promote this notion.
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Nov 1, 2017 22:40
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 Does Palestine even have a mascot? Edit: That isn't dead, a Disney character or WB character. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 22:42
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fritzgryphon posted:
 Cat Mattress posted:The good people in Israel are making sure that both these options are forever closed to them. Its not people in Israel that going to kill them for apostasy and its not people in Israel that prevent them from leaving. Thats your arab comrades in arms. Ze Pollack posted:what does the US gain from Israel, hakimashou Lady Morgaga fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 23:03
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hakimashou posted:I expect one common way of thinking about it is that terror attacks aim to kill as many civilians as possible, while military attacks aim to avoid civilian casualties. Of course there are counter-examples like strategic bombing in ww2. Israel doesn't avoid them so there goes that.
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Nov 1, 2017 23:23
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hakimashou posted:I expect one common way of thinking about it is that terror attacks aim to kill as many civilians as possible, while military attacks aim to avoid civilian casualties. Of course there are counter-examples like strategic bombing in ww2. The IDF is pretty terrible at being a military then.
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Nov 1, 2017 23:35
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Lady Morgaga posted:Only very bad muslim cant find reasons to kill infidels. not the question I asked, friend. seriously. what does the US get in return from its client state. we pay Israel's bills for it, what do we get in return?
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Nov 2, 2017 00:14
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 If Israel's mascot is a self-serving message to the world, then this would be the Palestinian one. It's also what you get for the tax dollars. Nevvy Z: How could I forget the tank. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 00:17
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fritzgryphon posted:
   Maybe a lil tank handcuffed to its wrist tho...
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Nov 2, 2017 00:21
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Ze Pollack posted:not the question I asked, friend. seriously. what does the US get in return from its client state. we pay Israel's bills for it, what do we get in return? Israel receives finances that are drop in the bucket for US that it has to spend in US. What kind of returns do you expect? What the magnitude of returns do you expect?
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Nov 2, 2017 00:23
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Ze Pollack posted:what does the US gain from Israel, hakimashou Many Americans feel good that we are supporting the one and only Jewish state in the world, especially after what the Europeans did to the Jews in the 20th century. Some Americans believe we have a religious obligation to support Israel. I don't know enough about national security to quantify the exact benefits we obtain from having Israel be what it is where it is. I don't know how much it costs, but the US has more money than any other country, so it's not that much of an issue either way.
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Nov 2, 2017 00:48
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Lady Morgaga posted:Israel receives finances that are drop in the bucket for US that it has to spend in US. What kind of returns do you expect? What the magnitude of returns do you expect? in international politics, it is generally expected that in return for being sponsored by a state, you undertake actions on that state's behalf. seriously. what is the return on investment we get for funding Israel? what is the benefit we receive?
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Nov 2, 2017 00:58
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hakimashou posted:Many Americans feel good that we are supporting the one and only Jewish state in the world, especially after what the Europeans did to the Jews in the 20th century. Some Americans believe we have a religious obligation to support Israel. I don't know enough about national security to quantify the exact benefits we obtain from having Israel be what it is where it is. It kind of sucks that the only time the US decided to be altruistic in its foreign policy was to prop up an apartheid regime but oh well
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Nov 2, 2017 01:11
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Ze Pollack posted:in international politics, it is generally expected that in return for being sponsored by a state, you undertake actions on that state's behalf. Like what? Killing Bin Laden? Fighting in Iraq? What are the actions that you expect Israel to do? US is completely in its rights to stop giving the aid to Israel. Lady Morgaga fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 01:31
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Israel is p cool doing what it does. Being pretty white, pretty girls, standing up to the brown hordes. On all sides, like a zombie invasion. They were bombing Iraq before the US of A was. They even got the best targets before uncle Sam would mop up the rest (and get stuck with the bill). Israel is the chum and bug zapper that keeps freedom free. They are basically awesome compressed into a terrorist killing mach... eeen. Every dollar spent is like 1000 spent on DOD bloat bullshit, in terms of bodies. It's a little slow now but I'm sure it'll pick up. Trump won't even have to build that wall when Israel is doing it for them at a fraction of the cost, and in a better location. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2017 03:21
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hakimashou posted:I expect one common way of thinking about it is that terror attacks aim to kill as many civilians as possible, while military attacks aim to avoid civilian casualties. Of course there are counter-examples like strategic bombing in Fixed it, you're welcome! We really don't need to go as far back as WWII to go there. Israel kills as much civilians in comparison to armed attackers as loving Assad.
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Nov 2, 2017 07:17
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Ze Pollack posted:in international politics, it is generally expected that in return for being sponsored by a state, you undertake actions on that state's behalf. The mil-ind complex likes to set up shop there getting contracts from both USA and Israel, so does 'silicon valley 2', most notably Intel, and a lot of various US originated companies: biotechs, medical, plastics, just a lot of them. Double dipping on funding. There is supposed to be a lot of intelligence sharing, in theory. In practice it seems to not be as much since Israel routinely acts on US targets or US interests without informing them. The US is Israels biggest trade partner (natch) tho the US runs a trade deficit (more imports than exports to Israel), $9 billion in 2013. However, were the US not nearly as politically and economically hegemonic as it is now, the politics and international relations aspect would be a giant millstone. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 12:46
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Lady Morgaga posted:Like what? Killing Bin Laden? Fighting in Iraq? What are the actions that you expect Israel to do? normally, when you have a client state, you expect your client to take actions on your behalf that Israel's reciprocity for the US making its continued existence as an ethnostate possible currently takes the form of [this space left blank] is a point of curiosity, to me. once upon a time, they were a viable proxy to oppose soviet proxies in the region. these days, they can't be used to attack any of their neighbors for fear of being humiliated, and even if we concede Hakimashou's point that their value add is "more people shooting those goddamned muslims, against whom our peoples are united in eternal holy war," money sent to them has a worse dollars spent/muslims killed ratio than even the united states armed forces. leaving that pesky ethnic cleansing thing completely to one side, at least when we give money to the Saudis America gets something back for it. that the question "what is the benefit to America in providing support to Israel" has no solid answers is an issue that would worry me, were I thinking in terms of Israel's long-term survival.
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Nov 2, 2017 16:02
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Ytlaya posted:Why doesn't it count as terrorism when Israel kills civilians? The perception might be that PA has something to gain from dead kids, in the form of distaste for Israel in the USA. Israel must then avoid these casualties for existential reasons, no matter how much the government du jour likes to stamp cockroaches. Though this lens, every rocket attack or knifing (which have no real effect in themselves) can be presumed to deliberately provoke an Israeli reprisal, specifically to generate civilian casualties. Imagine if I were poking you to point where you retaliated by shoving me, and I made a big show about falling down and being hurt. It wouldn't matter if I had a legitimate beef against you. The poking would be seen to necessitate the response. It's pretty dirty (and effective) because Israel gets screwed either way. If they retaliate to stop militants, they get dead kids. If they do nothing, the sitting government looks weak at home. Can you imagine what would happen if Canadian militants starting striking the US? We'd have half our country leveled and occupied. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 17:36
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It's a good thing Israel never blows poo poo up unprovoked so your opinion actually has a leg to stand on.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:42
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as Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman will gladly explain to you, the existence of a palestinian that still draws breath between the sea and Jordan is, in and of itself, an insufferable provocation
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Nov 2, 2017 17:55
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Zanzibar Ham posted:It's a good thing Israel never blows poo poo up unprovoked so your opinion actually has a leg to stand on. It's super easy. Palestinians (understandably) hate Israel enough that any strike or incursion, anywhere, can be justified. If a P. village was flattened, completely at random, there would be at least one person there that has done/would do/could do/supports attacks on Israel. The rest of the people would be human shields. But if you really care about Palestinian well being, this shouldn't bother you. If the only way to help is by changing USA opinion, and the only way to affect USA opinion is dead kids, you should want as many dead kids as possible. 
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Nov 2, 2017 18:00
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Nah, I'll just wait for Trump and/or his replacement to ruin the US's international clout, forcing Israel to start listening to Europe which is much more BDS-friendly.
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Nov 2, 2017 18:04
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Zanzibar Ham posted:BDS... Wow, a whole club. Seriouspost: Is it even reasonable to at this point to conflate Palestinian plight with Israeli expansion? If Israel was weakened to any extent would it improve Palestinian governance, economy, services, etc? Consider the 'all Jews getting raptured' scenario. Does Palestine become a contiguous, united, productive country that can hold it's own against it's neighbors? Remember that the entire concept of a Palestine country was invented in opposition to Israel; before that it was just Jordan and Syria.
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Nov 2, 2017 18:49
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fritzgryphon posted:Wow, a whole club. Is there anything inherent to palestinians that prevents them from being regular human beings and doing regular human stuff? I'm confused by the question.
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Nov 2, 2017 18:55
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fritzgryphon posted:Wow, a whole club. drat, you're really reminding me of myself from like a decade ago. That of course has no bearing on your argument for good or ill, just noting that because it's uncanny. As to the argument itself, are you saying that the territories Israel holds should be returned to Jordan and Syria?
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Nov 2, 2017 18:56
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Is there anything inherent to palestinians that prevents them from being regular human beings and doing regular human stuff? I'm confused by the question. I mean, everyone else is just as manifest destiny as Israel. For example, if Assad says "Congrats on statehood, guys! Gee, those ports look pretty nice, how would you like to be in Syria again? By the way, you're not really people because you got the Jew smell on you, enjoy the sarin." Zanzibar Ham posted:As to the argument itself, are you saying that the territories Israel holds should be returned to Jordan and Syria? Might be better to stick with the ogre that at least has to pull it's punches.
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Nov 2, 2017 19:13
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fritzgryphon posted:Might be better to stick with the ogre that at least has to pull it's So really it doesn't matter that "the entire concept of a Palestine country was invented in opposition to Israel; before that it was just Jordan and Syria". Gotcha. Who knows, maybe the area would have been less a nest of "ogres" if the west wasn't constantly messing with it with no regard to human life.
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Nov 2, 2017 19:20
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fritzgryphon posted:Remember that the entire concept of a Palestine country was invented in opposition to Israel; before that it was just Jordan and Syria. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k Also it's dead wrong; the British Mandate of Palestine did not include Syria nor Jordan.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:16
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fritzgryphon posted:It's super easy. Palestinians (understandably) hate Israel enough that any strike or incursion, anywhere, can be justified. If a P. village was flattened, completely at random, there would be at least one person there that has done/would do/could do/supports attacks on Israel. The rest of the people would be human shields. Yeah, but you could use a similar sort of tortured logic to argue that all Israeli civilians (except the minority who are exempt) count as potential combatants due to Israel's compulsory military service. I mean, I actually kind of understand the mindset that would result in someone viewing Palestinian attacks more negatively than Israeli military attacks, but I also think it's obviously wrong. If anything, I would say that organized military attacks are actually worse than random civilians committing crimes. Even if you ignore the difference in magnitude of casualties, the former is the result of a decision on the part of the Israeli government while the latter is something virtually impossible for Palestinians to completely prevent.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:22
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Nah, I'll just wait for Trump and/or his replacement to ruin the US's international clout, forcing Israel to start listening to Europe which is much more BDS-friendly. I don't think Israel will ever listen to Europe and I don't blame them one bit for it after what happened.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:40
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Syria ? No one has rights unless it's easier than the alternative. I have a 'right' to drinking water only because it's more expedient for the powers that be to give it than to deny it. Ytlaya posted:Yeah, but you could use a similar sort of tortured logic to argue that all Israeli civilians (except the minority who are exempt) count as potential combatants due to Israel's compulsory military service. Sure, it's unjust. It just has to make a pretext that their backers will accept (or not care enough to sanction). Organized force also gets better results (attacks in Israel are down). I see the appeal in looking for a just solution but it just doesn't matter. If anything, wasted effort toward justice prolongs a lot of conflicts in the world. Groups are defeated, but instead of being completely absorbed or obliterated they garner sympathy and aid, making forever conflict. Declaring Israel in the first place was partially misguided justice. A real outcome will just reflect the balance of power. If you want to be pro armchair humanitarian you can guess that outcome and try to make it happen quicker. Anything else is making the situation worse. edit: Not that the outcome matters to armchair humanitarian when the goal is to feel superior by bestowing good intentions on your lessers. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 20:41
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hakimashou posted:I don't think Israel will ever listen to Europe and I don't blame them one bit for it after what happened. You still think the Israeli government genuinely cares about the holocaust. Cute.
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Nov 2, 2017 21:59
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Zanzibar Ham posted:You still think the Israeli government genuinely cares about the holocaust. Cute. Yeah I think they do.
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Nov 2, 2017 22:54
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Ze Pollack posted:normally, when you have a client state, you expect your client to take actions on your behalf Ze Pollack posted:that Israel's reciprocity for the US making its continued existence as an ethnostate possible currently takes the form of [this space left blank] is a point of curiosity, to me. once upon a time, they were a viable proxy to oppose soviet proxies in the region. these days, they can't be used to attack any of their neighbors for fear of being humiliated, and even if we concede Hakimashou's point that their value add is "more people shooting those goddamned muslims, against whom our peoples are united in eternal holy war," money sent to them has a worse dollars spent/muslims killed ratio than even the united states armed forces. I will agree with you. Israel definitely doesnt kill enough arabs. *rolleyes But maybe, just maybe thats an idea? US pays bloodthirsty Jew not to kill childlike arab? Ze Pollack posted:leaving that pesky ethnic cleansing thing completely to one side, at least when we give money to the Saudis America gets something back for it. Ze Pollack posted:that the question "what is the benefit to America in providing support to Israel" has no solid answers is an issue that would worry me, were I thinking in terms of Israel's long-term survival. Seeing that the murderer got to see his son infinitely times more then any Israeli captured by arabs did... This is called "compassion" Al-Sarq. Novel concept I know. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2017 23:54
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There's so much capital from the holocaust it'll be paraded for longer than the Star Wars universe will. The Nazis were the ultimate cartoon villains and gave the Jews permanent sympathetic underdog status for as long as the war is relevant in culture. WWII is still a hot property even after dozens of more recent wars have been forgotten. CoD: WWII features a Jewish soldier that gets captured. Maybe 'Murica saves him or maybe he dies in a 'never again' moment. Either way the USA is never going to drop Israel, nor would western Europe ever favor Muslims over Jews.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9ITIaKzG3A&t=69s fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 00:12
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Lady Morgaga posted:Seeing that the murderer got to see his son infinitely times more then any Israeli captured by arabs did... This is called "compassion" Al-Sarq. Novel concept I know. quote:Rajab's life sentence was reinstated on "secret evidence", including claims he violated the conditions placed on him when he was released, according to the family. Oh, you. 
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Nov 3, 2017 00:56
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Lady Morgaga posted:Such as? give us military bases to use, blow up refineries belonging to our local enemies, provide us with diplomatic leverage in local negotiations, give us some sweetheart resource deals, it's a pretty standard gig. quote:I will agree with you. Israel definitely doesnt kill enough arabs. *rolleyes But maybe, just maybe thats an idea? US pays bloodthirsty Jew not to kill childlike arab? again, what's the benefit to the US in that arrangement? remember, we're dismissing any of that irritating morality nonsense in the name of setting the ethnic cleansing issue to one side. what's the value-add to the US in subsidizing either side in Operation: Bibi Needs Some Dead IDF To Slap On Posters? quote:All that pesky cleansing and for some reason only arab world is judenrein while there arabs in Israel. One wonders what happened there. that your command of the facts on the ground is essentially nonexistent does seem to impact your ability to put forward an answer, won't lie. quote:Seeing that the murderer got to see his son infinitely times more then any Israeli captured by arabs did... This is called "compassion" Al-Sarq. Novel concept I know. the Likud policy of "if an Israeli is captured by Palestinians, flatten the closest city block in the hopes you can kill him, so they can't try to do a prisoner exchange" is certainly -a- definition of compassion, I suppose remember that time during Protective Edge a soldier got reported missing, and the IDF response was to carpet-bomb his last known position? lol
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Nov 3, 2017 00:56
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Ze Pollack posted:give us military bases to use, blow up refineries belonging to our local enemies, provide us with diplomatic leverage in local negotiations, give us some sweetheart resource deals, it's a pretty standard gig. Ze Pollack posted:again, what's the benefit to the US in that arrangement? remember, we're dismissing any of that irritating morality nonsense in the name of setting the ethnic cleansing issue to one side. what's the value-add to the US in subsidizing either side in Operation: Bibi Needs Some Dead IDF To Slap On Posters? Ze Pollack posted:the Likud policy of "if an Israeli is captured by Palestinians, flatten the closest city block in the hopes you can kill him, so they can't try to do a prisoner exchange" is certainly -a- definition of compassion, I suppose No I dont.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:28
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you're all completely mad
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