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Roth posted:I'll have you know that Injustice is an artistic masterpiece
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Nov 2, 2017 00:07
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Roth posted:I'll have you know that Injustice is an artistic masterpiece
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Nov 2, 2017 00:07
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BrianWilly posted:When are people going to learn that "edgy" "bold" stories that "deconstruct" whether heroes or villains are really good or bad or not are never as good as you think they are? Vision and Mister Miracle, bud. All hail the Tom King!
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Nov 2, 2017 00:08
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Onmi posted:The Joker's supposed to be the protagonist and Sane. Also he claims he's never murdered anyone. That is what they said but it sounds like they just threw all that away.
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Nov 2, 2017 00:09
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Inkspot posted:Action Comics! The recent Sensation run was a lot of fun and had some great one-shot stories in it. I wish they'd bring it back.  Space Fish posted:Curious if Sensation Comics, Wonder Woman Earth One, Legend of Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman: The True Amazon, and Odyssey of the Amazons sold strongly enough to keep additional Wonder Woman titles going. There was Wonder Woman '77 recently, too, which was at least popular enough to cross over with Batman '66 and the Bionicle Woman. Was WW '77 any good? I never got around to checking it out.
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Nov 2, 2017 00:28
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BrianWilly posted:When are people going to learn that "edgy" "bold" stories that "deconstruct" whether heroes or villains are really good or bad or not are never as good as you think they are? Squadron Supreme. 
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Nov 2, 2017 01:15
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My biggest problem with most deconstructions I've seen is that most of them boil down to "the same thing but with SADS" or "none of those good things would ever happen because ACTUALLY all people are baby stabbing monsters and evil"
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Nov 2, 2017 01:53
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I'm interested in Earth-2 because I want to read about Obama-Superman. Are these two series any good?
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Nov 2, 2017 04:29
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Zoro posted:I'm interested in Earth-2 because I want to read about Obama-Superman. Are these two series any good?
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Nov 2, 2017 06:11
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Glad to know DC heard everyone's complaints about where Wally, Jess, and Simon were in this event and took that into account when they offscreen jobbed them to the shittiest Batman of them all. Great work, Snyder and Tieri.
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Nov 2, 2017 06:23
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Glad to know DC heard everyone's complaints about where Wally, Jess, and Simon were in this event and took that into account when they offscreen jobbed them to the shittiest Batman of them all. Great work, Snyder and Tieri. This was almost certainly written and drawn before anyone posted their complaints on the internet.
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Nov 2, 2017 06:30
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Zoro posted:I'm interested in Earth-2 because I want to read about Obama-Superman. Are these two series any good? That's not Earth-2. That's a Morrison creation from Final Crisis who's been used a few times up through Multiversity and Tomasi's Superman. N52 Action Comics #9 is a good issue revolving around him. Edit: Earth 2 did have a black Superman, but it's not him. ee: Art preview from Rucka/Evely's WW part of the Holiday Special. https://twitter.com/drinkpinkink/status/925865380861452288 https://twitter.com/drinkpinkink/status/925867726182039555 e: And here's one for the King/Francavilla Sgt. Rock story. https://twitter.com/13th_Dimension/status/926252591545188353 Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 07:56
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Rhyno posted:This was almost certainly written and drawn before anyone posted their complaints on the internet. People were annoyed when solicits alone were showing Hal coming back purely to kick Jess and Simon out of the event, so no, that's not really possible.
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Nov 2, 2017 19:17
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Onmi posted:So Batman: White Knight #2... hoo boy. That does sound like a bad story, where did you hear a drunken recollection of White Knight #2? Are you posting what some rear end in a top hat at the LGS told you happened? If I had your reading comprehension I'd stick to the adult coloring books my LGS is pushing like crack; maybe one of those fidget spinners?
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Nov 3, 2017 03:53
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Teenage Fansub posted:ee: Art preview from Rucka/Evely's WW part of the Holiday Special. 
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Nov 3, 2017 07:30
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Autism Sneaks posted:That does sound like a bad story, where did you hear a drunken recollection of White Knight #2? Are you posting what some rear end in a top hat at the LGS told you happened? If I had your reading comprehension I'd stick to the adult coloring books my LGS is pushing like crack; maybe one of those fidget spinners? hi Sean Murphy, I didn't know you had an account here
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Nov 3, 2017 08:34
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Edge & Christian posted:conquered by disliking a stupid term The word "grimdark" is such a petty thing to be insane and passive aggressive about
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Nov 3, 2017 15:25
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Autism Sneaks posted:That does sound like a bad story, where did you hear a drunken recollection of White Knight #2? Are you posting what some rear end in a top hat at the LGS told you happened? If I had your reading comprehension I'd stick to the adult coloring books my LGS is pushing like crack; maybe one of those fidget spinners? I mean that is the plot of the book, how else are we supposed to interpret it?
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Nov 3, 2017 16:30
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Nuns with Guns posted:The word "grimdark" is such a petty thing to be insane and passive aggressive about E&C is against the dumbing down of comic book discourse, and grimdark is a term that gets more mileage than it should.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:45
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Open Marriage Night posted:E&C is against the dumbing down of comic book discourse, and grimdark is a term that gets more mileage than it should. People will misuse or misapply descriptive words no matter how legitimately they can be used in scholarly discourse. Getting bothered by someone throwing out a common derogatory label that's shorthand for "something perceived to have an excessively grim tone with a thick layer of underlying fascism that cycles around to self-parody levels" is ridiculous. Especially on an internet forum where "i'm gay" was word filtered for months due to being spammed to death. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 16:58
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Open Marriage Night posted:E&C is against the dumbing down of comic book discourse, and grimdark is a term that gets more mileage than it should. I rhought his thing was suck8ng the joy out of comics. The more you know.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:07
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I think he's one of the more enjoyable posters around here. He goes overboard sometimes, but he challenges people to up their game when it comes to discussion. I get so tired of people being relentlessly negative, I like when they're told to show their work. So, what's everyone think of the Metal one shots? Still hyped, or did they go too far into grimdark territory?
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Nov 3, 2017 20:33
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They're pretty much all over the place in terms of content and quality, which sounds just about right for event tie-ins. I actually thought the the Devastator (the one where Batman is Doomsday) was quite good. Dawnbreaker and Merciless were trash. The others were more or less in the middle as far as I can recall about them, which is honestly not much..
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Nov 3, 2017 20:50
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Merciless was really, really close to being interesting. Sure there wasn't an original bone in its body, but changing up the evil Batman formula by making him more tragic than bitter about the "gently caress You, Got Mine" rules of the multiverse was interesting...Right up until it swerved at the end into generic evil Batman.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:21
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Metal side-issues are some of the most skippable event tie-ins I've ever read. Not that I'll stop buying 'em, though. We've got Lemire and Morrison coming up 
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Nov 3, 2017 22:58
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Nuns with Guns posted:People will misuse or misapply descriptive words no matter how legitimately they can be used in scholarly discourse. Getting bothered by someone throwing out a common derogatory label that's shorthand for "something perceived to have an excessively grim tone with a thick layer of underlying fascism that cycles around to self-parody levels" is ridiculous. Especially on an internet forum where "i'm gay" was word filtered for months due to being spammed to death. a) 'im gay' was pretty loving dumb and word filtered because it was loving dumb, that seems like an odd example to throw out to say no one should care about dumb poo poo b) BSS is not GBS or BYOB or whatever low/zero-content subforum despite some folks' deepest wish for that to be so c) "Grimdark" at least (hypothetically) adds something to the conversation which sets it apart from 'im gay', sure. It's dumb baby talk, but when you say 'grimdark' you immediately think of... well, not what you said? Seriously, which of these books would the thread agree are "GRIMDARK" books? - Watchmen - The Dark Knight Returns - Spawn - Youngblood - Shadowhawk - Crossed - Stray Bullets - the 1990s Ghost Rider revival - Brat Pack - From Hell - PunisherMAX - Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme - JMS's Squadron Supreme - Kraven's Last Hunt - Scalped - Preacher - Transmetropolitan - Sweet Tooth - X-Statix - Ellis/Hitch Authority - Millar/Quitely Authority - Kick rear end - Old Man Logan - Logan the movie - Metal - Tom King's Mister Miracle - Infinite Crisis - Final Crisis - Identity Crisis "Grimdark" basically means "poo poo I don't like, not because it's not funny, but because it's serious in a way I don't like". Which of these are "grimdark"? Which are not? They've all got grim moments and some lurid violence and if you squint hard enough either denounce or embrace the fascism inherent in the superhero/great man power fantasy. So they're all grimdark, right?
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Nov 4, 2017 02:54
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It's not simply about being serious in a way you don't like, it's about being nihilistic, edgy, self-serious, shocking, and tonally dark for the sake of it rather than in service of some larger point. Heroism is for the naive who have failed to realised the hopelessness of their situation, and the best you can get are morally compromised people making hard choices. Ditko's Mr A is serious in a way I don't like but it's not grimdark. Same goes for Nick Spencer's recent output. Judge Dredd without the satire is grimdark, as is Warhammer 40k. Transmet isn't because there is far too much absurdity and humour in the series. FInal Crisis is (thematically) about a rejection of grimdark.
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Nov 4, 2017 03:31
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Edge & Christian posted:I mean, I was content to let this drop because I am clearly on the wrong side of history here, but Of course "i'm gay" was dumb, and still is, but it's also really dumb to compose a big passive aggressive rant at someone who used a portmanteau spawned from wahammer fiction that gets used everywhere. Like, if you think the endpoint here is a discourse that's turned completely noxious because everyone starts communicating in cliquey catchphrases tv tropes-style, being an intense dick definitely won't fix that. Edge & Christian posted:c) "Grimdark" at least (hypothetically) adds something to the conversation which sets it apart from 'im gay', sure. It's dumb baby talk, but when you say 'grimdark' you immediately think of... well, not what you said? I mean, I think of that? There's definitely certain words that have grown out of nerd media discussions like "monkeycheese" or "mary-sue" that wouldn't make much sense to someone just getting into a discussion, but I don't think a random word like grimdark drags down a conversation when it's used. Terrible and stupid people will misuse words like that, sure. You can look at all the neckbeards that screeched about Rey being bad because she was a mary-sue character in The Force Awakens for that. If they didn't have that word they'd just misuse something else and make everyone mad anyway. Edge & Christian posted:Seriously, which of these books would the thread agree are "GRIMDARK" books? On your list I'd mark Spawn (or at least the 90s-stereotyped version) and maaaaybe Old Man Logan as "grimdark" and nothing else. OML can vary a lot depending on how well a writer deals with him being from a generally lovely world, but bits like Hulk's inbred hick grandkid gang were pretty close. Metal is trying for a grimdark feel, I guess, but also having a lot of unironic fun with it that lightens the comic up a lot. Also, seriously? Saying Final Crisis is grimdark?
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Nov 4, 2017 03:35
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Edge & Christian posted:"Grimdark" basically means "poo poo I don't like, not because it's not funny, but because it's serious in a way I don't like". No, it really doesn't. There are people that use it that way, yes, but they're wrong.
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Nov 4, 2017 16:00
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Edge & Christian posted:"Grimdark" basically means "poo poo I don't like, not because it's not funny, but because it's serious in a way I don't like". Which of these are "grimdark"? Which are not? They've all got grim moments and some lurid violence and if you squint hard enough either denounce or embrace the fascism inherent in the superhero/great man power fantasy. So they're all grimdark, right? No it doesn't. You're going "People misuse a term!!!" and ignore that happens to literally every term ever. People have arguments over what qualifies as far more respectable terms like ironic, satire, parody and so-on. People not agreeing on the exact terminology don't mean poo poo. Many of those can qualify as something needlessly grim and excessive and if someone holds that opinion that doesn't make them ~inherently wrong~ even if you, personally, disagree. Instead you're getting whiny and angry because you don't like this specific term and are trying to justify it using a hilariously hollow argument that could be applied to almost any term of discussion. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Nov 4, 2017 |
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Nov 4, 2017 16:37
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People on this very forum have in the past year or so used "grimdark" to refer to Metal, Jason Aaron's Thor, Soule/Garney (and the general run of) Daredevil, Gotham, Riverdale, the new Justice League movie, Mark Millar's Authority/his overall bibliography, Twilight of the Superheroes, Alan Moore's overall bibliography, Secret Empire, Spawn, 1990s Image costume design/art styles, Kingdom Come, Infinite Crisis, the recent Jen Walters Hulk book, Mark Russell's Flintstones, the character of Jason Todd, and the DC Universe 2005-2011 or whatever. It's great that we can just go "well sure, everyone misuses everything, what is meaning?" but I can still dislike a term. People dislike poo poo all of the time. And within that list of things, it seems like "grimdark" interchangably means: 1) The spawn of Watchmen/DKR, where all heroes are violent fascists whose efforts to improve the world are ultimately futile 2) Actual Watchmen/DKR 3) Comics critiquing Watchmen/DKR about how superheroes CAN be violent with fascist undertones but they should be kinder and more hopeful 4) Comics critiquing Watchmen/DKR for not properly burying superheroes as violent fascists 5) Comics with graphic violence 6) Comics with "serious" or "realistic" situations 7) Comics with "serious" or "realistic" situations, but only when juxtaposed with traditionally lighter characters/settings 8) Comics containing or evoking the art styles of Todd McFarlane/Rob Liefeld/Jim Lee/etc. 9) ??? As a shorthand, it's generally useless. If I said that I heard they were going to go "grimdark" for a new Space Ghost comic book, what would that mean? Would he have a more "serious" costume? A costume with spikes and pouches? No costume, but be a disgraced astronaut who faked his own death? Would it be positioning him as a violent vigilante? Critiquing his role as a violent vigilante? Would Zorak be a racist? A cannibal? It could mean pretty much any of those the way people use 'grimdark'. If I dismissed every humor book as being too giggleshit, but it was unclear if this meant that I couldn't stand the comedy stylings of [Charles Schulz, Chip Zdarsky, Ryan North, Keith Giffen, Daniel Clowes, Chris Onstad, Kate Beaton, George Saunders, Carrot Top, Weird Al Yankovic, Ron Funches, Garrison Keillor] but you know, people know what I mean when I hear the new Thor movie is a real giggleshit movie?
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Nov 4, 2017 17:26
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It's true, if you made up a new word nobody would know what the gently caress it means. As it stands you're throwing a fit over a word with established connotations because you have a pathological hatred of it, which actually stems from some weird projection of a distaste for the lazy/ignorant way nerds (or really people as a whole) uncritically analyze the media they consume.
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Nov 4, 2017 17:32
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If I said I'd heard they were going for a lighter tone in the new Captain America book what would that mean? A less serious costume, with a cape? A sentient American flag? Would Red Skull be inspired by Colonel Klink? Who knows, I guess the term "lighter" is useless. Grimdark is a fuzzy term, and different people will have slightly different interpretations of it (and will consider different works grimdark or not). It's hardly unique in that regard. For a while "I'll know it when I see it" was the legal definition of porn in America.
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Nov 4, 2017 17:55
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Nuns with Guns posted:On your list I'd mark Spawn (or at least the 90s-stereotyped version) and maaaaybe Old Man Logan as "grimdark" and nothing else. Like whateber commentary there is just gets tsunami'd out with all intentional edge-pushing. I think what gets lost sometime is how elemental that are dark should be in service of the narrative, and not just a setpiece to shock you. Rorschach cleaving the dog is a major turning point for the character, and while dark and unsettling, is essential for understanding his evolution. Rorschach going to town on the pedo's head in the movie is just gratuitous and doesn't have the same weight. But it's not exactly in Grimdark territory. Anyway, I'm sorry for partially dragging this conversation out. Batman becomes Doomsday was a good take, but mainly because there's a scene in E -1 where Bruce tells BadClark that he loved him, and I feel like that's a huge thing. It's not that he cared about him, or valued his friendship, but that Bruce was emotionally vulnerable again, probably since his parents' death or Jason's death. Adds some nice subtext to the subsequent fall that happens. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Nov 4, 2017 |
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Nov 4, 2017 17:55
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Edge & Christian posted:If I dismissed every humor book as being too giggleshit, A ton of people do this, just not using the term you made up here. Might I point you at "monkey cheese" for an example? Which contains all kinds of absurdist or random humor?
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Nov 4, 2017 18:00
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FilthyImp posted:Crossed, dude. It's "What if 28 Days Later but instead of Rage you get ShitFuckCockKill". God... Crossed is like beyond grimdark to me and deep into unapologetic gore porn. Maybe that's still grimdark? I don't know... the only discussion of Crossed ever seems to be a series of increasingly disgusted noises.
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Nov 4, 2017 18:09
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I like comic books, y'all.
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Nov 4, 2017 18:12
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giggleshit is an excellent new word.
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Nov 4, 2017 18:14
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I think grimdark is a stupid blanket term that's more lazy than annoying and I roll my eyes slightly whenever I see someone use it sincerely but I normally forget it was used by the end of the of sentence because as dumb as it is I also don't really care that much.
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Nov 4, 2017 18:17
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So, how about that issue of Superman #34? Lois Lane joining that cult of Darkside worshippers as one of their new warriors (unwillingly) was a fun twist. They're really playing her up as a badass.
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Nov 4, 2017 18:19
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