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Monsha's a hard looking 28. I am reaching burn out stage at work again so I am all in on watching Gundam shows again. IBO is easy since season 2 is on Toonami but maybe now is the time to finally watch ZZ.
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Nov 1, 2017 21:36
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Manatee Cannon posted:setsuna was 16, 21, then 23 EXCUSE ME GLOWING SETSUNA IS AGELESS i think. it wasn't very clear wtf happened there at the end with him. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 22:50
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Banagher is pretty immortal too given he stopped a colony laser then went and joined his ghost parents but is still alive. Yeah I watched all of Unicorn in spite of advise to the contrary. The ending wasn't all that but I figured it would be a lot worse. I just found this kinda disappointing as opposed to rage-inducing levels of bad. Episode 4 definitely was the peak of the series, however. I guess a lot of people hate the reveal about Laplace's Box although it wasn't anything like I expected. I could swear I've seen posts on here that say the box was "nothing" and other people said "that was the point." The contents seemed very substantial to me. Maybe I just misunderstood what I read since I always made sure to just skip over Unicorn posts once I realized they had spoilers..
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Nov 1, 2017 22:57
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laplace's box is substantial in a political context but I think people expected it to be more literal
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Nov 1, 2017 23:11
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Manatee Cannon posted:laplace's box is substantial in a political context but I think people expected it to be more literal Like some sort of superweapon? I figured that was too obvious. I half-expected there to be nothing at all and the message was "the box was inside you all along" or some bullshit. The reveal was just fine IMO. Unless of course you view it as justifying Zeon a bit too much which I can see why that bugs people. Also it basically said we should put Kamille in high political office. Here's my big question about Unicorn. The NTD System - Newtype Destroyer. Why the hell does this need a Newtype to pilot it? Its very existence is to stamp out Newtypes. Not even a selfish prick like Scirocco would pilot this thing because as soon as your superiors ask you to exterminate everyone like you, alarm bells are gonna sound.
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Nov 1, 2017 23:20
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I liked the laplace box reveal, because it's typical of every legendary treasure ever. Important yes, but undoubtedly with a large amount of rumor and hyperbole putting on a ridiculous level. I'm just tired to death of new age newtype endings. They feel really hollow.
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Nov 1, 2017 23:42
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NikkolasKing posted:Like some sort of superweapon? I figured that was too obvious. I half-expected there to be nothing at all and the message was "the box was inside you all along" or some bullshit. The reveal was just fine IMO. Unless of course you view it as justifying Zeon a bit too much which I can see why that bugs people. It is the distillation of what happened to newtypes in the whole UC. They get turned into weapons instead of using their greater sensitivity to do other things. In this case, weapons to destroy other Newtypes.
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Nov 1, 2017 23:55
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Manatee Cannon posted:laplace's box is substantial in a political context but I think people expected it to be more literal No it's not. It has no binding force whatsoever. It's like finding out that the framers of the constitution were gonna add a provision like "Every citizen gets a slice of pie every thursday" but took it out in later drafts. It's effectively meaningless. The federation approved the new version with that clause taken out, which would override all previous legislation. Also the lawyer in me can't get over how stupid the wording is and how it makes zero sense. What the hell does "Space adapted" human beings mean and why the gently caress would they suddenly get a priority in the administration of the government. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 00:01
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Monaghan posted:No it's not. It has no binding force whatsoever. It's like finding out that the framers of the constitution were gonna add a provision like "Every citizen gets a slice of pie every thursday" but took it out in later drafts. It's effectively meaningless. The federation approved the new version with that clause taken out, which would override all previous legislation. It's not binding but in the context of discourse, the idea that, say, the initial drafts of the US constitution had anti-slavery measures that were abandoned to reach consensus was kinda important to the debate about amendments. That said, the idea that any constitution is supposed to endure endlessly without revision or changes and that it is inviolate is a very modern, very american POV. That anything happening in Unicorn would be particularly impactful is wishful thinking, since we know what happens later already. On that note I'd like an AU that's a divergence that sneaks up on you, in a similar vein to Gundam X but without blowing the secret in the opening montage.
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Nov 2, 2017 00:19
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Monaghan posted:No it's not. It has no binding force whatsoever. It's like finding out that the framers of the constitution were gonna add a provision like "Every citizen gets a slice of pie every thursday" but took it out in later drafts. It's effectively meaningless. The federation approved the new version with that clause taken out, which would override all previous legislation. Doesn't the fact this all happened because of an act of treasonous terrorism (a "false flag" I think it's called) invalidate anything that happened as a result of it? That just seems like good sense. You don't reward the murderer for getting away with murder.
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Nov 2, 2017 00:19
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NikkolasKing posted:Like some sort of superweapon? I figured that was too obvious. I half-expected there to be nothing at all and the message was "the box was inside you all along" or some bullshit. The reveal was just fine IMO. Unless of course you view it as justifying Zeon a bit too much which I can see why that bugs people. Gonna do a big ol' rant about the reveal at the end of Unicorn so I'm just gonna black bar all of it. The problem is that it's entirely nonsensical and weird in the context of the setting. The possible existence of newtypes was a thing first theorized and advanced by Zeon Zum Deikun, a man who wasn't born until a decade after the Laplace Incident took place and who developed that theory after observing humanity living in space for his entire life. Him being the guy who first advanced this theory is extremely central to the events of the Universal Century; there's a MAJOR reason why the Zabi family chose to usurp his legacy by naming their space fiefdom after him. Meanwhile, the original charter that was contained in Laplace's Box is from half a century before newtype theory existed! The central conceit of Laplace's Box is that whoops, there were people who came up with this idea literally before Zeon was ever born and who were influential enough to get this idea inserted into the intended final draft of a government document(they were literally lasering this stuff into a stone tablet at a public ceremony before a terrorist attack interrupted it) and I guess they literally all died and never told anyone about it or wrote about it ever and also no copies of the intended final draft survived anywhere else besides the big stupid stone tablet so that idea completely disappeared until Zeon revived it? Then there's the practical side of things. For a set of government framers to put such a ridiculously open-ended phrase("In the future, should the emergence of a new space-adapted human race be confirmed, the Earth Federation shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government") in the founding document of a government is utter insanity. You might as well say "if space aliens or mutants or cyborgs or elves show up, give them seats in parliament". You don't have any loving idea what a "space-adapted human" is or will be because they don't loving exist(and won't exist for at least half a century, as the UC shows). It's so silly that it instantly breaks any sense of gravitas the reveal might have had. Basically, to summarize, it's a stupid plot point because the "real" charter only makes sense if Doc Brown and Marty McFly took the Delorean and went back in time from UC 0079 to UC -1 to let the Federation Founders know that in 80 years there will be space psychic people so put something in the constitution about them, thanks. As for the NT-D system, it was originally intended to be used by non-newtypes, but the way the system functions puts so much strain on the pilot's brain that only a newtype can actually handle it without loving dying. When NT-D activates, the pilot gains the ability to control the entire suit directly with his brain, but the stress of controlling a giant robot and all of its functions with your noggin is too much for a normal human to handle and even newtypes can't handle it for long(this is why the system has a 5 minute cutoff initially). It needing a newtype isn't really a big deal for the Federation, anyway, since Cyber Newtype labs are still a thing that exist. They would have had a perfectly suitable NT-D user by reconditioning Marida if Banagher and Zinnerman hadn't been around, for example.
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Nov 2, 2017 00:55
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Hey so, an aside but on other Unicorn issues The flashes Banager gets really heavily implied to me that he was a cyber newtype, but it's not mentioned otherwise and everyone else treats him as a natural. Knowing that there's the idea "oh well cyber newtype and regular newtypes aren't that different!" did I totally misread those scenes?
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Nov 2, 2017 01:53
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DamnGlitch posted:Hey so, an aside but on other Unicorn issues The flashes Banager gets really heavily implied to me that he was a cyber newtype, but it's not mentioned otherwise and everyone else treats him as a natural. Knowing that there's the idea "oh well cyber newtype and regular newtypes aren't that different!" did I totally misread those scenes? Well Unicorn itself states that Cyber Newtypes are limited while real Newtypes have truly limitless potential. Considering the ending, I'm petty sure Banagher is supposed to be the genuine article. But what exactly do you mean by "flashes?"
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Nov 2, 2017 01:59
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NikkolasKing posted:Well Unicorn itself states that Cyber Newtypes are limited while real Newtypes have truly limitless potential. Considering the ending, I'm petty sure Banagher is supposed to be the genuine article. But what exactly do you mean by "flashes?" Unicorn is wrong about that though. It's pretty explicitly the point of Marida's plot. It's just that 'limitless potential' in combat vs the actual purpose of newtypes is different
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Nov 2, 2017 02:01
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Monaghan posted:No it's not. It has no binding force whatsoever. It's like finding out that the framers of the constitution were gonna add a provision like "Every citizen gets a slice of pie every thursday" but took it out in later drafts. It's effectively meaningless. The federation approved the new version with that clause taken out, which would override all previous legislation. Personally I love it when my law and legistation is made with science fiction prospects added in. NikkolasKing posted:Here's my big question about Unicorn. The NTD System - Newtype Destroyer. Why the hell does this need a Newtype to pilot it? Its very existence is to stamp out Newtypes. Not even a selfish prick like Scirocco would pilot this thing because as soon as your superiors ask you to exterminate everyone like you, alarm bells are gonna sound. That's the thing, They don't ask you. The NTD system activates and turns you "off" and uses your brain as a processor and your Newtype abilities to detect and interact with other Newtypes as the world's best bloodhound nose. There's a big deal with Loni where Banagher finally gets the Unicorn to let him be conscious and in control. He mentions towards the end of the series that its a struggle because still there gnawing at his mind, asking to be put in control and murder all Newtypes because as far as it knows Newtype=Bad. DamnGlitch posted:Hey so, an aside but on other Unicorn issues The flashes Banager gets really heavily implied to me that he was a cyber newtype, but it's not mentioned otherwise and everyone else treats him as a natural. Knowing that there's the idea "oh well cyber newtype and regular newtypes aren't that different!" did I totally misread those scenes? Nope, he definitely has something done to him, but I don't think its clear if it made him a thing or just amplified his abilities or what. Unicorn doesn't state the Cyber Newtypes are limited. Full Frontal says that and he's full of poo poo. The entire Marida thing is showing that Cyber Newtypes are every bit a Newtype as natural Newtypes.
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Nov 2, 2017 02:01
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DamnGlitch posted:Hey so, an aside but on other Unicorn issues The flashes Banager gets really heavily implied to me that he was a cyber newtype, but it's not mentioned otherwise and everyone else treats him as a natural. Knowing that there's the idea "oh well cyber newtype and regular newtypes aren't that different!" did I totally misread those scenes? I think that's less 'cyber newtyping' and more just relentless childhood 'training' in the vein of those prodigy horror stories about kids being forced to play an instrument for days on end, just with piloting a giant robot with your mind instead of plonking away at a piano at age 4. And I think it makes decent sense, given his abilities, and the insane and frankly magical poo poo that happens, especially at the end of the novel.
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Nov 2, 2017 02:06
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EthanSteele posted:
Oh it's very clear they aren't truly different, at least insofar as being newtype. I just thought it was weird the cybernewtype element was at least hinted at for his character and then isn't addressed in him at all.
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Nov 2, 2017 02:07
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:
What happens at the end of the novel?
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Nov 2, 2017 02:10
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For Unicorn's ending Imagine if the framers of the constitution had added an amendment that "Pioneers adapted to the ways of the Ohio valley and other Territory, should they emerge shall be granted, prominence in government". It's just a nonsensical and impossible thing to add to a piece of legislation
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Nov 2, 2017 02:11
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EthanSteele posted:Unicorn doesn't state the Cyber Newtypes are limited. Full Frontal says that and he's full of poo poo. The entire Marida thing is showing that Cyber Newtypes are every bit a Newtype as natural Newtypes. Actually it's the Vist butler who says it during episode 7 when Banagher and Mineva meet Grandpa Vist. His exact words, at least in the dub, are: "The Laplace Program is a system that was designed to identify true Newtypes. Because, unlike Cyber-Newtypes, the psycho-waves of a true Newtype are actually immeasurable. And that is why it is a key that leads a true Newtype to the Box."
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Nov 2, 2017 02:26
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NikkolasKing posted:Actually it's the Vist butler who says it during episode 7 when Banagher and Mineva meet Grandpa Vist. His exact words, at least in the dub, are: I'm pretty sure Frontal says the thing as well when he sends out Marida to get dunked on. Either way, one of the actual good characters arcs is about how they're full of poo poo.
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Nov 2, 2017 03:02
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EthanSteele posted:That's the thing, They don't ask you. The NTD system activates and turns you "off" and uses your brain as a processor and your Newtype abilities to detect and interact with other Newtypes as the world's best bloodhound nose. There's a big deal with Loni where Banagher finally gets the Unicorn to let him be conscious and in control. He mentions towards the end of the series that its a struggle because still there gnawing at his mind, asking to be put in control and murder all Newtypes because as far as it knows Newtype=Bad. I'm fairly certain that it only knocks Banagher out like a light because he's an untrained idiot civilian kid at the start. Marida certainly has no problems remaining conscious and in control(for a crazed cyber newtype) when the Banshee NT-Ds, and neither does Riddhe.
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Nov 2, 2017 03:07
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Kanos posted:I'm fairly certain that it only knocks Banagher out like a light because he's an untrained idiot civilian kid at the start. Marida certainly has no problems remaining conscious and in control(for a crazed cyber newtype) when the Banshee NT-Ds, and neither does Riddhe. That’s the Banshee, though. It’s the upgraded second unit where they had a chance to iron out the kinks.
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Nov 2, 2017 03:10
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Both are reasonable possibilities. The Banshee is the "evil" version of the already not good robot, piloted by a cyber newtype with a pumped up mindset that aligned with the Kill All Newtypes thing via Kill All Gundams and Riddhe is similar with his thing too, so maybe it just turns you off if you don't agree with it. Or the Banshee does a feedback thing and amplifies that sort of thinking in the pilot. I've always gone with the maximum bad news one, but Banagher being a raw dude fits too!
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Nov 2, 2017 03:25
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I was under the assumption that the Banshee has less reality-altering bullshit mind power and potential, but in exchange ditched the pilot lock, put a bit of a limiter on the NT-D, and had some extra power and versatility added in the form of the various Armed Armors. Meanwhile the Unicorn had no restrictions and once Banagher tamed it and got all his green NT-D powers, he could just do insane poo poo. But without any newtype stuff, Banshee was supposed to be a better and more usable suit. ManSedan posted:What happens at the end of the novel? If the old summaries are correct, Banagher goes Full Synchro and basically becomes Unicorn.
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Nov 2, 2017 03:41
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NikkolasKing posted:Here's my big question about Unicorn. The NTD System - Newtype Destroyer. Why the hell does this need a Newtype to pilot it? Its very existence is to stamp out Newtypes. Not even a selfish prick like Scirocco would pilot this thing because as soon as your superiors ask you to exterminate everyone like you, alarm bells are gonna sound. *extremely Brian Cox in X-Men 2 voice* They serve their purpose. As long as they can be controlled.
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Nov 2, 2017 08:44
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Kanos posted:
This kind of amuses me in the context of IBO. If I'm understanding you right, something that, in the Universal Century, is nearly impossible proof of superhuman enlightenment, is also quite managable for the average child slave in Post Disaster. It also means Mikazuki is pretty much the ideal pilot for the Unicorn from a design prospective, while being the worst person to do the whole messianic Newtype act.
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Nov 2, 2017 11:15
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Well, for what it's worth we've no idea how much Mikazuki's overall lifespan was affected by his whiskers. What would his maximum age turn out to be? What insane side effects would he have down the road? I don't think his accomplishing what he did means he's somehow better than UC counterparts. I think...I think he probably wouldn't have lived past 30, between the whisker use and the childhood malnutrition.
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Nov 2, 2017 11:22
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Give me a Unicorn-themed laptop and a "This machine kills newtypes" sticker.
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Nov 2, 2017 12:08
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Manatee Cannon posted:according to the internet, apparently feldt was 14 (???) in the first season, 19 in the second, and 21 in the movie Some of the CB crew being underage isn't actually unreasonable. They're all generational members of Celestial Being, growing up in the organization and getting hands-on learning from their parents.
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Nov 2, 2017 12:45
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I'd have pegged feldt as being at least as old as soma personally
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Nov 2, 2017 13:02
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chiasaur11 posted:This kind of amuses me in the context of IBO. You're not quite, no. Whiskers are not exactly the same thing. They're more of an in-between. What Unicorn is is actually more akin to Barabtos red-eye mode... and that is what eventually killed Mika.
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Nov 2, 2017 13:27
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chiasaur11 posted:This kind of amuses me in the context of IBO. A whiskered pilot using an AV system in IBO is more akin to a newtype using a psycommu or a biosensor than NT-D; from a combat perspective, you could consider the whiskered child soldiers in IBO as rough analogues to Cyber Newtypes like the Puru Clones. Both the basic AV system and the Psycommu/Biosensor use the pilot's brain and abilities to enhance control of the suit in significant ways that are separate from their actual piloting skills, but their usage doesn't harm the pilot because there's an explicit limit to how much of the pilot they're allowed to use. NT-D is effectively what Mika does when he slips the limiters off the Barbatos in his big climax battles; it's full utilization of the pilot's entire brain for the purposes of making the robot fight better. As we saw, even a prodigy of Mika's level was horribly mangled and killed by abuse on this level, and Mika was already an impossible freak by in-universe standards for being so adaptable to the AV system that he survived whisker surgery three times to the point where a one-whisker pilot even trying to move the Barbatos across a hangar had a minor stroke. Anyone else trying to cut the limiters would have died instantly. e: Whoops, that's what I get for not refreshing. Darth Walrus posted:That’s the Banshee, though. It’s the upgraded second unit where they had a chance to iron out the kinks. EthanSteele posted:Both are reasonable possibilities. The Banshee is the "evil" version of the already not good robot, piloted by a cyber newtype with a pumped up mindset that aligned with the Kill All Newtypes thing via Kill All Gundams and Riddhe is similar with his thing too, so maybe it just turns you off if you don't agree with it. Or the Banshee does a feedback thing and amplifies that sort of thinking in the pilot. I've always gone with the maximum bad news one, but Banagher being a raw dude fits too! "Turns you off if you don't agree with it" is probably closer to what we see on screen during the Loni fight, where Banagher desperately attempts to stop NT-D from going full murder mode and it appears to be causing him significant distress. I'd probably say that Banagher's ability to resist it and then remain conscious in Red NT-D during the Loni fight despite explicitly trying to do the opposite of the KILL ALL NEWTYPES functionality at that point gives a lot of weight to the first time it knocked Banagher spark out being a fluke due to it catching him completely off guard. There's definitely some extremely strong pressure being put out by the system to do what it was designed to do, though. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 13:49
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Kanos posted:NT-D is effectively what Mika does when he slips the limiters off the Barbatos in his big climax battles; it's full utilization of the pilot's entire brain for the purposes of making the robot fight better. As we saw, even a prodigy of Mika's level was horribly mangled and killed by abuse on this level, and Mika was already an impossible freak by in-universe standards for being so adaptable to the AV system that he survived whisker surgery three times to the point where a one-whisker pilot even trying to move the Barbatos across a hangar had a minor stroke. Anyone else trying to cut the limiters would have died instantly. I'd say that's more about the AV hardware than Mika, because the other guys have two and ran the Flauros and Gusion just fine. Poor guy with just one Whisker simply didn't have the bandwidth to handle a Gundam.
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Nov 2, 2017 15:18
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The wing boys all being 14
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Nov 2, 2017 16:25
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Tae posted:The wing boys all being 14 Excuse me, they're all 15, way more realistic.
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Nov 2, 2017 16:30
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At least Treize is like 27.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:01
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as with most anime, the takeaway here is that anime ages are bullshit
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Nov 2, 2017 17:03
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Yeah basically just add 10 years unless they are literally a child or still clearly in school. Treize and Une could have been mid 30s at least pretty easily. Likewise with most of the SEED adults.
chumbler fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 17:15
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08th MS Team is the only show with realistic ages, oddly enough. Norris actually looks like he's in his late 30s. But age does not mean maturity, and MIchel is still the worst. Whiny little Russo/French wimp. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 17:18
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