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I mean, we have "roads" in space already - more efficient travel routes between bodies in our solar system based on the interaction between gravitational fields. If we're positing FTL, why wouldn't it have more efficient routes within it?
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Nov 3, 2017 01:10
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I get the concerns around "chokepoints in space" issue, but you can really address that pretty well for MP without messing with SP too much since you could put it into things the AI doesn't have to consider ever building. In fact, most concerns about choke points are really going to focus on MP since I doubt the AI will really focus on setting up specific choke points and then loading them up with every defensive option like players will. Some Examples of how to crack chokepoints for MP in interesting ways: 1. A module you can put on boats (instead of afterburner/shield cap) called something like "Offensive EMP": when you first enter a new space section through a hyperlane, it automatically fires a 80-110 range debuff shockwave that either "disables ship/stations for X days" or "reduces weapon damage/fire speed/ etc for X days." It allows fleets to not get super camped at the entrance to a fortified chokepoint, forcing your enemies to build their defenses a bit further back in the subspace of the system, giving you a better fighting chance to actually attack with your fleets. 2. New combat based megastructures: - A late game wormhole generator that can generate a wormhole within a certain radius (think the size of jump drives now), that has huge power requirements while the wormhole is open, like 1500 energy a month or something. It lets you create a new wormhole, bypassing your enemies defended space, but unless you can move your fleet out through the same wormhole before you close it, or win the important space battles, your ships get trapped there with no emergency jump option. Also building the wormhole station and using the wormhole station both get telegraphed, so your enemy can respond by leaving the safety of their checkpoints and coming to stop you. - Mass Driver style static artillery, that can fire on static targets like military stations or starbases only. Same small radius of action, so it has to be built right on the frontlines like the above wormhole station. This lets a player pop the defenses of a static doomfort if the other player is just turtling hard. It cannot target any ships, which is easy to explain as the targeting computer cannot hit moving targets at these extreme distances. You can also have high power requirements for firing, and even long travel times of the shots as the telegraph. These are just things I made up in a few minutes of brainstorming, if defensive chokepoints are really tedious in the long run there are certainly ways to counter them that are cool and interesting. But adding "terrain" is a pretty cool feature and I'd rather just address the shortfalls like above then argue against change, and I was one of the people against hyperlanes only in the game's current design. Mazz fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 01:10
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If it helps, pretend that hyperlanes are point-to-point microwormholes that popped into creation naturally that increase warp speed by a factor of 10billion and the Yuht were actually a warp-only race who went extinct because they refused to use those newfangled hyperlanes.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:11
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Shadowlyger posted:Hyperlanes as a concept are stupid. Why the hell would you have space roads. It's space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_Network
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Nov 3, 2017 01:12
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Shadowlyger posted:Okay if you're just going to be intentionally obtuse then there's no reason to talk to you. It's the exact same thing 
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Nov 3, 2017 01:12
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Shadowlyger posted:Okay if you're just going to be intentionally obtuse then there's no reason to talk to you. turn on your monitor
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Nov 3, 2017 01:13
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Shadowlyger posted:Hyperlanes as a concept are stupid. Why the hell would you have space roads. It's space. Since FTL as a concept has no basis in reality, you can come up with any number of fictional reasons why they exist. They could be naturally occurring wormholes connecting nearby systems, or the only navigable paths between those systems based on the range/endurance of whatever magic FTL drive that you're using. Two otherwise nearby star systems don't have a hyperlane between them? There's some sort of navigational hazard there preventing ships from moving between the two, it's just not on the map because it's not of strategic interest beyond the fact that it is impeding your movement. It's trivially easy to explain away these kinds of things. But games set in a space opera setting like Stellaris by their very nature usually don't have to answer them because it's just a game mechanic, and the rules exist to make the game fun/balanced/Blorg-like. Hyperlanes are ultimately no more stupid than any other form of FTL. They are simply a way to constrain movement across the map and create a network of artificial terrain. Is that realistic? Maybe not, but this isn't a simulation. If Stellaris was a "realistic" hard sci-fi game you'd be stuck in the solar system, there would be no aliens, and you'd be playing something more akin to Kerbal Space Program.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:16
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So we got a long long wait ahead of us. A lot of people seem to want more connectivity in their lanes, I always like less. I want weird dead ends and choke points and whole arms only accessed from a single lane. Are there any map scripts or poo poo that make space more fractured like that? I like how endless space 2 did it. From the start you could see all the level 1 lanes, which often formed isolated pockets that you could not escape. Eventually you got tech that let you slow-boat but it was super slow compared to taking a lane. Finally you'd get tech that revealed all the level 2 lanes, which connected all/most of the isolated pockets into one network. I actually love the idea of starting in a little corner of space maybe alone, maybe with a couple rivals, and being totally unable to get out or explore beyond it until you research or build something. It keeps you exploring through the whole game, it keeps you wondering what's going on on the other side of the universe. That new sector of space you now have access to, is it a fractured bunch of rival nations? Empty? One big super power? It's like in civ, you could never explore the entire map from day 1. You could only explore you continent, then you could explore nearby landmasses but not cross oceans, then you could finally cross oceans and explore it all. But it introduced the world slowly to you, with new tech really opening up more and more of the map. There's a total lack of this sense of progression in Stellaris.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:19
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turn off the TV posted:In my game where space is a two dimensional ocean, newtonian physics do not exist, spaceships have wings, and a magic race of slug people is summoning giant demonic monsters from another plane of existence, the existence of hyerplanes is where I draw the line. Yes, the mental image of a giant two lane highway in space does, in fact, break my suspension of disbelief.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:22
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Shadowlyger posted:Yes, the mental image of a giant two lane highway in space does, in fact, break my suspension of disbelief. Hello from the future! 
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Nov 3, 2017 01:25
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It would actually be pretty interesting if when they released it, there were a section or two of the galaxy completely inaccessible by hyperlane, but with the edges still in sensor range. They would only be accessibly by jumpdrives and have a set of potential '2nd level' inhabitants (or even be empty).
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Nov 3, 2017 01:25
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Shadowlyger posted:Yes, the mental image of a giant two lane highway in space does, in fact, break my suspension of disbelief.  Golli posted:It would actually be pretty interesting if when they released it, there were a section or two of the galaxy completely inaccessible by hyperlane, but with the edges still in sensor range. That was specifically mentioned as something they want to do.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:26
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Hello from the future! That only serves my point better. I'd be okay with Stellaris being Futurama, though.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:29
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Golli posted:It would actually be pretty interesting if when they released it, there were a section or two of the galaxy completely inaccessible by hyperlane, but with the edges still in sensor range. The Blorg delved too greedily and too deep.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:30
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I can't say I expected Actual Spaceman Shadowlyger to show up to tell us how space really works but, hell.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:30
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Shadowlyger posted:Okay if you're just going to be intentionally obtuse then there's no reason to talk to you. No really, FTL travel makes no sense, complaining that the specific method doesn't make even more...less... sense because it maps to an intuitive idea is... really weird. I genuinely can't follow this line of reasoning that magic FTL travel is somehow intuitive but not if it's based around magic connections between stars.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:31
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OwlFancier posted:I mean... In the new system that would be an amazing start (barring leviathan on the route). You've got a single chokepoint to fortify that controls access to 3 stars.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:31
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Baronjutter posted:So we got a long long wait ahead of us. A lot of people seem to want more connectivity in their lanes, I always like less. I want weird dead ends and choke points and whole arms only accessed from a single lane. Are there any map scripts or poo poo that make space more fractured like that? From a quick search there's Improved Hyperlanes and Fog of War. I think it's a valid criticism that if there's only one defensive point to break through, then the attacking player isn't really given any tactical choice, they're just going to have to build enough of a doomstack to overpower it (before jump drives). But it's likely there are many other combat changes to make the gameplay more complex than that.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:32
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DatonKallandor posted:In the new system that would be an amazing start (barring leviathan on the route). You've got a single chokepoint to fortify that controls access to 3 stars. For an extra bit of "holy poo poo don't restart," he's running NSC in that screenshot (the second fleet is what gives it away) and NSC has absolutely monstrous defensive stations even at game start. That's actually a real good position to be in if he can get to that doorway star.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:35
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I'm kinda into space things, there's so much we don't know about space. Zero clue about dark matter yet we can "see" its gravity forming webs in space, which have guided where stars and galaxies form. We have even less idea what dark energy is. FTL is still impossible based on what we know and what we know we don't know, and it's unlikely there's something major that we don't know that we don't know that would allow it. All that said, in a fantasy setting like Stellaris there's a million ways hyperlanes can make sense. Much in the way dark matter forms blobby strands, perhaps there's areas of space that naturally form between large masses like solar systems. Maybe these are exotic particles we can't even imagine that we can interact with in such a way to make FTL possible, but only along those (relatively) narrow corridors? For instance, here's a "map" of some dark matter distribution. Stuff like "roads" absolutely do form in space.   GRAVITY ROADS Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 01:35
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Tyrel Lohr posted:Kerbal Space Program. Admittedly, it might be interesting to KSPish fleet movement physics in a 4x/Space Grand Strategy as long as the fiddly orbital calculations were abstracted away. Then again, that would make fleet combat as we know it completely impossible, as Stellaris style fleets, even if they manage to get in range, would just sail past each other and have a non-decisive exchange on their way to another location, which would be lovely and unfun.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:35
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OwlFancier posted:No really, FTL travel makes no sense, complaining that the specific method doesn't make even more...less... sense because it maps to an intuitive idea is... really weird. It's especially funny when he's insisting that he must imagine hyperlanes as literal space two lane highways when people have offered plenty of other, less retarded explanations in the thread.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:36
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BurntCornMuffin posted:Admittedly, it might be interesting to KSPish fleet movement physics in a 4x/Space Grand Strategy as long as the fiddly orbital calculations were abstracted away. Then again, that would make fleet combat as we know it completely impossible, as Stellaris style fleets, even if they manage to get in range, would just sail past each other and have a non-decisive exchange on their way to another location, which would be lovely and unfun. Ever played Children of a Dead Earth?
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Nov 3, 2017 01:48
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Baronjutter posted:I'm kinda into space things, there's so much we don't know about space. Zero clue about dark matter yet we can "see" its gravity forming webs in space, which have guided where stars and galaxies form. We have even less idea what dark energy is. FTL is still impossible based on what we know and what we know we don't know, and it's unlikely there's something major that we don't know that we don't know that would allow it. I like the idea that there are only a few incredibly rare star systems that actually have these FTL facilitating filaments joining them together in a web. So out of the whole galaxy of billions of stars there are only a few hundred that actually matter to space empires because the rest are all lightyears apart and effectively un-exploitable. Otherwise I'd want a map generation that didn't even pretend to be a whole galaxy. Just make it a tiny little region of space or some isolated star cluster.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:55
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I got one am excited about the hyperlane changes, as long as they don't gently caress with the New Horizons mod.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:58
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Eiba posted:To be honest hyperlanes help with verisimilitude issues for me, for reasons like this and the fact that otherwise galaxies are absurdly small. This is why I'd love it if the new update introduced dummy filler stars unconnected to the hyperlanes to make galaxies look much, much larger than they actually are. I really feel like large swaths of space being unexplorable due to FTL limitations contribute to the sense of spaceyness that Mass Effect 1 has. Even after being slingshot half way across the galaxy space was still impossibly big and unknowable, and an entire shadow galaxy could have existed outside of the relay network.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:01
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Baronjutter posted:So we got a long long wait ahead of us. A lot of people seem to want more connectivity in their lanes, I always like less. I want weird dead ends and choke points and whole arms only accessed from a single lane. Are there any map scripts or poo poo that make space more fractured like that? Yeah that would be really cool! I think maybe they can do something like that, they talked about a new Galaxy shape called clusters or clouds or something....might be aboe to fill this dream
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Nov 3, 2017 02:08
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Psycho Landlord posted:For an extra bit of "holy poo poo don't restart," he's running NSC in that screenshot (the second fleet is what gives it away) and NSC has absolutely monstrous defensive stations even at game start. That's actually a real good position to be in if he can get to that doorway star. I generally aspire to owning more than three systems so to me that's kind of just an annoyingly snakey imperial core.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:11
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Kris xK posted:I got one am excited about the hyperlane changes, as long as they don't gently caress with the New Horizons mod. Is that a good mod and what does it do
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Nov 3, 2017 02:16
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gowb posted:Is that a good mod and what does it do Star Trek Total Conversion and yeah it's really cool.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:16
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turn off the TV posted:This is why I'd love it if the new update introduced dummy filler stars unconnected to the hyperlanes to make galaxies look much, much larger than they actually are. Plenty of stars outside of the hyperlane network are already depicted. I mean, what did you think the glowing bulge in the middle of the galaxy was made of?
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Nov 3, 2017 02:18
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turn off the TV posted:Star Trek Total Conversion and yeah it's really cool. Dang I'm not really a pedophile so I doubt that would mean much to me Is there anything like CK2+ or HIP for this game? A mod that balances the game in certain ways and adds more content but doesn't change the underlying systems too much?
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Nov 3, 2017 02:18
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Eiba posted:You know how there's that Milky Way glow in the background of the galaxy map? From a distance a galaxy has an indistinct glowing shape like it's made of glowing fog or something. But it's not. It actually is an indistinct glowing fog, the galaxy in Stellaris is basically just a .dds texture of cloudy looking stuff with animated nebula and dust sprites sprinkled throughout it. It's stacked on top of itself multiple times to give the appearance of depth. There's a universe .dds of some sort, but you can't really see it through the galaxy texture and the dust and nebula sprites. E: The glowing bulge in the middle of the galaxy is another sprite.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:25
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turn off the TV posted:It's especially funny when he's insisting that he must imagine hyperlanes as literal space two lane highways when people have offered plenty of other, less retarded explanations in the thread. I mean they're still space roads, dude.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:28
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Eiba posted:To be honest hyperlanes help with verisimilitude issues for me, for reasons like this and the fact that otherwise galaxies are absurdly small. I've heard this complaint before and I don't really get it. Is it that hard to pretend that the available systems are the relevant ones and the ones not shown simply aren't that important? It's like complaining that EU4 doesn't show every single hamlet in the world on the map.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:31
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Kainser posted:I've heard this complaint before and I don't really get it. Is it that hard to pretend that the available systems are the relevant ones and the ones not shown simply aren't that important? It's like complaining that EU4 doesn't show every single hamlet in the world on the map. It actually matters to me. Something about the galaxy map only having a few prominent stars triggers a weird uncanny valley response in me. I don't care if the stars are actually real objects in the game, I'd just like them to be represented on the map.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:37
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Shadowlyger posted:I mean they're still space roads, dude. Like the ones in real life, yes
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Nov 3, 2017 02:39
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turn off the TV posted:It actually matters to me. Something about the galaxy map only having a few prominent stars triggers a weird uncanny valley response in me. I don't care if the stars are actually real objects in the game, I'd just like them to be represented on the map. Maybe you're playing in some super tiny little globular cluster???
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Nov 3, 2017 02:43
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hobbesmaster posted:Like the ones in real life, yes Those are in-system. Also I'm talking about their gameplay implementation so I'm not sure why you keep talking about real life.
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Nov 3, 2017 02:43
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Shadowlyger posted:Those are in-system. If it's just about gameplay, why don't you wait until you play the new version of the game (or at least read more of the upcoming dev diaries so you get a fuller picture of the changes and what they allow) before deciding that it's terrible?
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Nov 3, 2017 02:48
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