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ClancyEverafter posted:Right, and that would just make him a bad researcher or journalist, or at least, one that could be better, rather than TERF, which is 99% of the criticism about him. Say he is transphobic (and on balance of evidence, the gentleman appears to exhibit some of those traits), it doesn't mean he is human garbage just that he is wrong and should maybe do a bit more reading into it before shooting his mind of about something that confirms to his biases. I mean we all make mistakes, but it is better to learn from them.
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Nov 2, 2017 23:59
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OwlFancier posted:And also in the belief that if you put more words around a sentiment it makes it a different sentiment... Nah, have a good one.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:00
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OwlFancier posted:You are persisting in this belief that transphobe is an identity rather than a descriptor... Words like racist, XXXXphobe etc. are pretty charged though. It's not like calling someone an idiot. Or at least that is how most people will see it. Until people come to accept that most people have some dark stuff deep down we will always see baddie words as only worthy to be used on super baddie people.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:00
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Midig posted:Words like racist, XXXXphobe etc. are pretty charged though. It's not like calling someone an idiot. Or at least that is how most people will see it. Until people come to accept that most people have some dark stuff deep down we will always see baddie words as only worthy to be used on super baddie people. I mean linguistically they aren't great because phobe has a connotation of intent even though strictly it doesn't need to with things like hydrophillic/phobic but they're the words we've got and nobody's going to know what you mean if you just start making up random words and I don't know any alternatives that have even caught on enough to be used nichely. Plus to be honest I'm not particularly sad about them being forceful words, it's a forceful subject.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:04
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OwlFancier posted:I mean linguistically they aren't great because phobe has a connotation of intent even though strictly it doesn't need to with things like hydrophillic/phobic but they're the words we've got and nobody's going to know what you mean if you just start making up random words and I don't know any alternatives that have even caught on enough to be used nichely. What I mean is that it focuses on them being baddies instead of telling them why what they are doing is bad. Some people get really upset about being called an Islamaphobe for example. This guys channel is relevant to this thread anyway, so perfect timing to bring it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUJefiibHL4
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Nov 3, 2017 00:06
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Well that's an argument for not using it to their faces if you particualrly want to salvage them but it seems fine for use otherwise.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:07
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Midig, this is the "tolerate our intolerance" argument all over again. If your feelings get hurt because someone calls you racist or transphobic, that's your problem to figure out, it's not the responsibility of others to create a safe space where no one ever gets called racist ever again. If people are getting butthurt over being called racist, it's on them to change their behavior. This is how social progress is slowly made. It took decades to get people to (mostly) stop yelling the n word in public, it's going to take a long time to eliminate these types of behaviors.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:14
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I am not expressing sympathy, I am just making it clear that it is a slight shift in conversation which they will actually use to their advantage. Most people dont do that part you mention because of this thing called an "ego". So 50 percent of people when confronted will just go "I am not a BADDIE, here are the reasons why I believe this and still not a BADDIE." Midig fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 00:18
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ClancyEverafter posted:edit2: Define the words in quotes.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:18
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If Contra's getting heat for getting interviewed by that guy, why doesn't anyone catch heat for being friendly with people like shoeonhead? She's absolutely a bad-faith bomb-thrower with no genuine investment in any moral position who just gets off on the attention she gets from pepes. I would give Contra a much harder time for being friends/friendly acquaintances with her, given the justification given by others is that shoeonhead is a friendly or kind personality off the clock and face to face (the implication being that she knows she's just playing a game). That seems to just give her a pass on her public behavior, which is much less defensible than anything Contra has said about this reporter.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:20
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business hammocks posted:If Contra's getting heat for getting interviewed by that guy, why doesn't anyone catch heat for being friendly with people like shoeonhead? She's absolutely a bad-faith bomb-thrower with no genuine investment in any moral position who just gets off on the attention she gets from pepes. I would give Contra a much harder time for being friends/friendly acquaintances with her, given the justification given by others is that shoeonhead is a friendly or kind personality off the clock and face to face (the implication being that she knows she's just playing a game). That seems to just give her a pass on her public behavior, which is much less defensible than anything Contra has said about this reporter. Wasn't that what was happening with the convention debacle earlier this year?
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Nov 3, 2017 00:23
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Shoeonhead is... the transgirl who is in with the alt right I think? I can't keep track of everyone.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:25
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OwlFancier posted:Shoeonhead is... the transgirl who is in with the alt right I think? That's Blaire. Shoe is Armored Skeptic's girlfriend. It feels lovely to describe her in terms of her relationship to a man, but I legitimately know nothing about her beyond that.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:29
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OwlFancier posted:Shoeonhead is... the transgirl who is in with the alt right I think? I don't think she's trans, and you'd have to be more specific anyway. I think she's one of the old guard skeptic-turned-septic youtubers, if memory serves.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:30
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I think I was thinking of someone else, there was a girl came up a while back in the thread doing basically "hi I'm trans and I endorse all this horrible nazi poo poo lol" videos. Really young I think, like late teens.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:33
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Genocyber posted:Wasn't that what was happening with the convention debacle earlier this year? My impression with that was that they were being criticized for making light of internet polarization, not necessarily meeting each other or talking. And I don't think that's the same thing--I didn't have a problem with them talking over their positions or meeting each other. But I think it's weird now that shoeonhead and armoured sceptic occupy this weird gadfly position where they float into Contra's stream chat and buddy-buddy around with her like they're the warner bros. cartoon wolf and sheepdog after the whistle blows and they punch the timeclock. Those are people who deserve to be held accountable for their poor reasoning and lack of rigor, and I would expect Contra to have a firm enough mind to pin them to the wall on their bullshit. Not necessarily when she's drunk and playing the Sims for patreon people, but I kind of expect her to have higher standards when it comes to that sort of thing. I get that there's probably a certain delicacy to making a living on youtube and that the economics of that are mysterious to me, but I wish someone would explain it. I notice Contra doesn't take shots at Sargon when he comes up either, I'm guessing because it guarantees a chud invasion and lots of fraudulent video flagging.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:34
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OwlFancier posted:Shoeonhead is... the transgirl who is in with the alt right I think? Shoeonhead is not trans from what I know. Midig posted:I am not expressing sympathy, I am just making it clear that it is a slight shift in conversation which they will actually use to their advantage. Most people dont do that part you mention because of this thing called an "ego". So 50 percent of people when confronted will just go "I am not a BADDIE, here are the reasons why I believe this and still not a BADDIE." I get what you are aiming at here mate. I just wish there were better ways of talking to people than just screaming into the internet.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:35
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business hammocks posted:My impression with that was that they were being criticized for making light of internet polarization, not necessarily meeting each other or talking. And I don't think that's the same thing--I didn't have a problem with them talking over their positions or meeting each other. But I think it's weird now that shoeonhead and armoured sceptic occupy this weird gadfly position where they float into Contra's stream chat and buddy-buddy around with her like they're the warner bros. cartoon wolf and sheepdog after the whistle blows and they punch the timeclock. I think it might, partially, be that Contra really believes in the power of persuasion and debate. Like not in the way that you could even argue its utility but a rock solid belief of "If I can change my views then if I keep talking to these people they will surely see that their ideas are foolish and change". Like I have friends in real life work that I want to persuade away from certain ideas, but it is difficult and I am not being scrutinised by people on the internet all the time.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:39
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Josef bugman posted:I think it might, partially, be that Contra really believes in the power of persuasion and debate. Like not in the way that you could even argue its utility but a rock solid belief of "If I can change my views then if I keep talking to these people they will surely see that their ideas are foolish and change". Like I have friends in real life work that I want to persuade away from certain ideas, but it is difficult and I am not being scrutinised by people on the internet all the time. I have noticed that too but I diagnosed it as a particularly stubborn strain of liberalism  Yes she does seem to have a bizzare affinity for the idea that talking to people can change minds. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 00:41
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Josef bugman posted:I think it might, partially, be that Contra really believes in the power of persuasion and debate. Like not in the way that you could even argue its utility but a rock solid belief of "If I can change my views then if I keep talking to these people they will surely see that their ideas are foolish and change". Like I have friends in real life work that I want to persuade away from certain ideas, but it is difficult and I am not being scrutinised by people on the internet all the time. Yeah, I guess I'm maybe stuck in my own frame of reference and projecting, in that I could never tolerate a person who argues in bad faith, either as a colleague or a friend. I do find Contra's dedication to discourse admirable.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:46
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Midig posted:What I mean is that it focuses on them being baddies instead of telling them why what they are doing is bad. Some people get really upset about being called an Islamaphobe for example. This guys channel is relevant to this thread anyway, so perfect timing to bring it up: Would this guy also have an issue with "anti-semitism" as well do you think? OwlFancier posted:I have noticed that too but I diagnosed it as a particularly stubborn strain of liberalism I mean I understand the impulse. It is a worthy one and it does her credit, and I am not going to tell a grown up who they can't be friends with as long as those friends are not actual Nazis, but ultimately there may come a time when talk runs out. Ultimately we aren't really "rational" about how we view the world, even if we try to be we bring lots of hidden meanings to everything and everyone, even ourselves.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:46
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Well I got you beat on cynicism cos I generally start from the assumption that talk is useless in the majority of circumstances and rarely have cause to deviate. It's even weirder if you don't understand the impulse. But everyone's got their weird habits and an excessive willingess to engage with people seems more dangerous to the bearer than to bystanders at least.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:49
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Josef bugman posted:Would this guy also have an issue with "anti-semitism" as well do you think? Shoeonhead is extremely tiresome because whenever she gets called on saying something dumb she falls back on the defense that she's just a shitposter on the internet and nobody should take her seriously, and in fact her critic is a moron because that person took her seriously. Five minutes of being in the same room as someone like that would turn me insane.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:51
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OwlFancier posted:Yes she does seem to have a bizzare affinity for the idea that talking to people can change minds. business hammocks posted:Yeah, I guess I'm maybe stuck in my own frame of reference and projecting, in that I could never tolerate a person who argues in bad faith, either as a colleague or a friend. I do find Contra's dedication to discourse admirable. This is the issue, I had to get into Leftist styles of thinking based on a bit of personal experience and wanting to be a good person. Persuading people will not always work, but we can, and should, make it a very important plank of poo poo we do. OwlFancier posted:Well I got you beat on cynicism cos I generally start from the assumption that talk is useless in the majority of circumstances and rarely have cause to deviate. It's even weirder if you don't understand the impulse. I get that. I don't understand the feeling of Disphoria, like the video that Contra made about it was just so bewildering because I have never experienced it, but I understand that it is a thing that people feel . As a secondary issue I do wonder how much utility there is in being cynical towards people that need persuading. I think a bit of understanding goes a long way when it comes to things like this, I hope so anyway. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 00:54
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Josef bugman posted:I think it might, partially, be that Contra really believes in the power of persuasion and debate. Like not in the way that you could even argue its utility but a rock solid belief of "If I can change my views then if I keep talking to these people they will surely see that their ideas are foolish and change". Like I have friends in real life work that I want to persuade away from certain ideas, but it is difficult and I am not being scrutinised by people on the internet all the time. She also probably believes in making it about the policies and politics rather than the personalities, which is smart to a degree. In some cases, due to cults of personality, it's easier to attack what someone stands for than the person themselves.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:54
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Josef bugman posted:Would this guy also have an issue with "anti-semitism" as well do you think? His arguments against punching nazies are stupid, even for being a rational. He even managed to cram all that stupid into 6 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XtQ1BVhcOk. So maybe. Midig fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 00:54
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Midig posted:His arguments against punching nazies are stupid, even for being a rational: See I don't get this whole "reform your religion" thing people keep trotting out about Islam. It's a big loving collection of poo poo you'd have to "reform" and the last time we had a "reformation" most of Europe burned for a generation. Also, why isn't it that we just go "human rights" instead of "reform your faith". Like, surely the former is more important than the latter?
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Nov 3, 2017 00:59
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Josef bugman posted:See I don't get this whole "reform your religion" thing people keep trotting out about Islam. It's a big loving collection of poo poo you'd have to "reform" and the last time we had a "reformation" most of Europe burned for a generation. Did you post in the wrong thread?
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Nov 3, 2017 01:01
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Midig posted:Did you post in the wrong thread? I watched his video and wanted to respond to it without wandering into the open sewer that is youtube comment sections. Though I do realise how weird that probably seemed now. Sorry guys!
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Nov 3, 2017 01:07
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Speaking of which, apparently Contra has an upcoming debate with Blair White on childhood transition.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:10
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ClancyEverafter posted:Alright, post some links and we've got something to work with. Normally I'd tell you I'm not gonna do your homework for you, but why not. These articles go over the problems with these studies, as does this presentation. A different, more recent study that only looked at children who actually identified as the opposite gender, found that "transgender youth are statistically indistinguishable from cisgender children of the same gender identity." Please consider reading the actual report that resulted from the investigation that ultimately led to the closure of Zucker's clinic, and don't just rely on Singal's biased article. Just some things I noted skimming over it: quote:-In a German study (2014) which interviewed 13 international experts in the area of gender identity, 11 of these 13 stated that the approach and methods of the CAMH C&Y are unethical. The 2 who stated it was ethical was [redacted] and Dr. Ken Zucker. You have been mislead into believing that Zucker was simply using a different approach, based on different evidence in a field of science that was still in flux. This was not the case: Zucker's clinic utilized methods that were years, if not decades out of date, and their methods were not even consistent with their own research. aware of dog fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 01:10
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Josef bugman posted:I watched his video and wanted to respond to it without wandering into the open sewer that is youtube comment sections. My hot take is that religious extremism will not go away as long as religion exists. Reformation of religion is just allowing progress to go slowly. Midig fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 01:11
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islam is not why we have terrorism and poo poo. the united states is directly to blame for not only the rise of isis but also for iran becoming a theocracy and the continued strength of the most backward of all arab nations saudi arabia. it's our fault all this poo poo happening and we just make it worse and worse and worse.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:16
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Midig posted:My hot take is that religious extremism will not go away as long as religion exists. Reformation of religion is just allowing progress to go slowly. I disagree, Relgions and Faith will always exist. The searching for divinity or meaning is a basic part of human life, and even if we did the whole "stone from last church falls on last priest" deal then it isn't going to stop people being dicks to each other until we all have a goodly amount of resources to live with ourselves. ^^ This too, the major Western powers have been backing Saudia Arabia and various local strong men for about 100 years. I think it is bad to do that and likely encourages a greater number of problems than it solves.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:18
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I don't think if you somehow make the entire world atheist it would do much to stop people killing each other tbh.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:18
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Religion is not the root cause, but it will help with recruitment for causes like it until 0 people believe in magic. Also, atheism won't removes all problems, but it would surely be a little easier to lift the bar without greasy hands.
Midig fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 01:20
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think if you somehow make the entire world atheist it would do much to stop people killing each other tbh. Pretty much this. Midig posted:Not the root cause, but it will help with recruitment for causes like it until 0 people believe in magic. Also, atheism won't removes all problems, but it would surely be a little easier to lift the bar without greasy hands. In opposition to this idea I present you with: Dick Dorkins and Sam Harris.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:22
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Eh, in my experience people just find temporal reasons to be dicks to each other. The only quarrel I have is that I find immaterialism profoundly offputting but it doesn't seem to produce better people either way.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:23
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Josef bugman posted:
I am sure that weakening the hold of tribalism for billions will more than make up for the mistakes of personalities that are not even relevant anymore.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:29
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Midig posted:I am sure that weakening the hold of tribalism for billions will more than make up for the mistakes of personalities that are not even relevant anymore. Except it won't. They will just build new tribes. That is what we, as humans, do. I don't mean them as a slam-dunk "take that athetits" what I mean to show is that assholes and people that support assholes will always gain power and declare other people part of the outgroup regardless of faith in a divinity.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:31
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