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There's a nethack tourney this month. I play nethack again now. This is where you've driven me to, devs.
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Nov 3, 2017 03:41
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No. Come back. The choices. No not WJC. You can't choose that.
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Nov 3, 2017 03:43
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Nov 3, 2017 11:06
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what the gently caress is crawl actually trying to be?
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Nov 3, 2017 11:37
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Superterranean posted:what the gently caress is crawl actually trying to be? Crawl is well on its way to being the best-engineered roguelike on the market.
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Nov 3, 2017 11:44
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Serephina posted:My local version of crawl is .19.5, didn't even know .20 was out. Not that I particularly care, but I decided to take a skim of what they have planned: Well I like the wand stacking/merging idea at least? Still not super promising. It's so annoying because they are genuinely adding qol improvements so I don't really want to go back to earlier versions but they also seem to be totally allergic to any sort of charm.
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Nov 3, 2017 12:59
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-I thought the monster spawn changes already happened but this is a nerf to mummies I guess and will take time to get used to considering the already high chance of getting swarmed right away. Murder holes and corner-hallways just became even stronger. -Wands are annoying and I don't mind changes to them, -call Gnolls whatever you want just don't gently caress them up -revamp swamp if you like sure who cares, just don't screw it up but I never went through swamp once thinking that it was weird that frogs were there -WHY ARE YOU GETTING RID OF PLAYER GHOSTS? DID ONE AUTIST BITCH ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE BEING TOO SWINGY OR SOMETHING? WHAT THE HELL -food removal has been discussed forever, is this an end to player hunger or is it the end of monster chunks? Will purple chunks remain? -the treatment of council god has been fuckin lol and kinda sums up the non-QoL changes that Crawl has been going through
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Nov 3, 2017 15:10
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they're getting rid of player ghosts because gammafunk got logicninja'd one too many times 
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Nov 3, 2017 15:13
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people have complained about player ghosts for loving years guys, that's hardly unprecedented. or bad. remove ghosts
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Nov 3, 2017 15:26
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Ghosts are good. The point about their stats is true though, they really shouldn't go 1:1 because player stats are nothing like monster stats. Especially defenses, fighting a ghost with 40+ AC & EV is really dumb.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:33
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ghosts becoming reasonable to kill and not sometimes having firestorm on d6(which can actually happen currently) or more commonly just having huge stats so you have to keep retreating up stairs and going back down somewhere else because you can't kill them, until you run into them again, would also be good yeah
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Nov 3, 2017 15:38
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I haven't heard anyone complain about ghosts, is this an online complaint? Because there are a lot of people that don't play online that don't mind ghosts at all.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:48
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yes, this is an online complaint at the very least I have complained about ghosts before, and people complain about them all the time in places that are not here. I don't know why people here are more ok with them, to be honest. I think they're really really annoying because they're usually not actually dangerous(bc most players play melee so most ghosts are normal move speed, no spells) but their defenses are through the roof so you can't reasonably fight them so you have to keep dipping back up the stairs to make them lose you while you explore the level one chunk at a time
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Nov 3, 2017 15:54
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they're like exclusion zones that move and it sucks, except sometimes they're wimps because of the kind of build someone else was using. especially because ghosts get certain advantages players do, but not others-they can use spells but not ranged attacks or invocations, for example. they mimic brands but they don't accurately mimic the dead player's damage, instead being a weird approximation based on level. they can't use stairs so if you have regen gear even if they're a decent threat you can whittle them down slightly, go up stairs and regen faster than them, go back down, attack them a bit more, etc until they finally die. etc etc etc. at least draconian ghost breath doesn't exist anymore
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Nov 3, 2017 15:59
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Player ghosts are part of the character of Crawl and always (?) have been. They could definitely be toned down a bit, but removing them would be like taking out wands or something.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:05
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they're cutting purple chunks.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:15
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item destruction was also "part of the character of crawl", until it was removed and the game became better for its removal
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Nov 3, 2017 16:21
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Player ghosts have been complained about for literally a decade plus so I don’t see what could possibly change NOW to remove them besides “lol crawl devs”
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Nov 3, 2017 16:30
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Devlan Mud posted:Player ghosts have been complained about for literally a decade plus so I don’t see what could possibly change NOW to remove them besides “lol crawl devs” People have been using VPNs to run bots that populate the online servers with awful player ghosts (CeCK, which gives them fast speed and a chaos brand), so it's become a situation of fix it or get rid of it because haven't been able to wall out the griefers as of yet.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:40
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IronicDongz posted:item destruction was also "part of the character of crawl", until it was removed and the game became better for its removal Item destruction: scrolls, potions and food being randomly destroyed based one enemy attacks forcing the player to create stashes everywhere and/or at the first sign of enemies with destructive attacks dropping their valuable and/or vulnerable items or risk losing them. Pointlessly punishing unless you follow a specific and tedious optimal method of avoiding it. How many people lamented that removal and are begging for its return today? Player ghosts: random dangerous enemy that usually forces the player to play differently on the floor, maybe burn some consumables to tank it or... run away. An added challenge with some potentially valuable XP in a game where XP is becoming tighter and tighter. And no to mention, are kinda fun to come across either as a reminder of a previous run you had that went bad, or that other people Yeah it might suck that once in a while someone leaves a firestorm ghost somewhere but I don't see how that's any bigger of an issue than the many other things that could use some attention right now, like the current state of Malmutate, Tomb, and late game. When making awful comparisons why not talk about the good old days of making the player (P)ray before going on killing sprees in order to get piety or corpse sacrificing? No wonder Crawl is starting to get a bad reputation out there for making changes with a sword instead of a scalpel when it seems like every QoL improvement is matched with a head-scratcher. EDIT: if it's an issue with people griefing online, I get that but it sounds like some are using it as an opportunity to axe ghosts. Again, myself and the dozen of people I've introduced the game to over the years mostly play offline.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:42
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Floodkiller posted:People have been using VPNs to run bots that populate the online servers with awful player ghosts (CeCK, which gives them fast speed and a chaos brand), so it's become a situation of fix it or get rid of it because haven't been able to wall out the griefers as of yet. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that crawl players will go to just to grief other crawl players in a single player game. It's even more amazing when it's not the devs!
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Nov 3, 2017 16:47
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Ghosts that appear before D:10 have heavily reduced stats. Problem solved.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:49
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FulsomFrank posted:Yeah it might suck that once in a while someone leaves a firestorm ghost somewhere but I don't see how that's any bigger of an issue than the many other things that could use some attention right now, like the current state of Malmutate, Tomb, and late game. I don't think malmutate really matters as much given how few monsters even have the spell and they're mostly just in extended
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Nov 3, 2017 16:51
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FulsomFrank posted:I haven't heard anyone complain about ghosts, is this an online complaint? Because there are a lot of people that don't play online that don't mind ghosts at all. Yeah, it's pretty much an online issue only. I've probably made 20 posts in these threads talking about how poorly they are implemented. They are xp pinatas for strong combos while being literally impossible for many other combos to kill, often locking a large portion of early content behind a wall of death or tedium. The mechanism is easily abused by players to either make the game easier or grief others across an entire server. The fact that they are trivalized by berserk and movespeed is really a problem with those mechanics, not the ghost mechanics. They could be good in the game as an extremely variable threat that is gamewide and requires the player to stop and think and examine them. But at the very least devs would need to reduce the xp reward, cap their stats by dungeon level or player XL, and remove incredibly stupid poo poo like giving draconian ghosts DRAIN breath. I don't think they are inherently bad or boring and wouldn't mind seeing the feature revised rather than removed. Take what I say with a grain of salt, I really don't play anymore because I'm so tired of the arrogance and deep divides both between and within the dev and player communities. When I look back on the comments and suggestions I've made I feel like I've been part of this and it makes me reticent to play or interact with either group. It's unfortunate that there's so much negative energy obfuscating what is at its core a fun little game that doesn't take itself too seriously and I regret my part in that.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:51
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draconian ghost breath has been removed fairly recently
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Nov 3, 2017 16:52
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IronicDongz posted:item destruction was also "part of the character of crawl", until it was removed and the game became better for its removal That's not a good comparison at all. Ghosts can be balanced to be fun and not overpowered. No amount of balancing can make item destruction fun because it's fundamentally bad.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:53
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There are a lot of things you could do to make ghosts more interesting but less bullshit, but I expect devs to just remove them rather than put in effort because that's the current state of things.IronicDongz posted:I don't think malmutate really matters as much given how few monsters even have the spell and they're mostly just in extended As someone who played extended all the time malmutate mattered a lot to me. Its still essentially impossible to avoid when going through Pan. Also orbs of fire are going to mutate you now and there's nothing you can do about it. It sucks.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:54
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Fitzy Fitz posted:That's not a good comparison at all. Ghosts can be balanced to be fun and not overpowered. No amount of balancing can make item destruction fun because it's fundamentally bad.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:58
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I won't be, because ghosts are something really unique in Crawl. This game has been losing a lot of its character with recent versions and the removal of ghosts would be another blow in that regard. I'd rather they put in the effort to make a proper reform or just do nothing.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:02
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Samog posted:they're cutting purple chunks. They'd better loving not be! I care way more about that than ghosts!
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Nov 3, 2017 17:18
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cutting purple chunks is the modem tax of crawl
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Nov 3, 2017 17:22
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IronicDongz, you've listed a bunch of problems with ghosts some of which same reasonable but I'm curious: are you happier that they're totally gone rather than just re-worked? Is there something wrong with just fixing their issues as you've already described? Nerf their defense, prevent them from having certain spells, reduce their XP... It just seems like another case of tossing the baby with the bath-water because of perceived issues.Araganzar posted:Yeah, it's pretty much an online issue only. I've probably made 20 posts in these threads talking about how poorly they are implemented. They are xp pinatas for strong combos while being literally impossible for many other combos to kill, often locking a large portion of early content behind a wall of death or tedium. The mechanism is easily abused by players to either make the game easier or grief others across an entire server. All good points. It's tough to remain positive when numerous little good things seem overshadowed by bigger badder things. Why nuke ghosts entirely when the problems listed as reasons for removal appear to be fairly simple to fix, so much so that in one page I've read solutions to mostly everything? It's the same thing with mutation (lol @ there not being many mutators, that's nonsense. Slime, zot, pan, and hell effects all are quite mutation friendly.) the game is for the most part way way better than it used to be but rather than make it even better poo poo like player ghosts are being axed. I get it takes time and work to balance these things but the trend of taking a good thing with problems and just getting rid of it is something that's dragging this great little game down.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:23
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... They want to remove scrolls of recharging and let you recharge wands by finding the exact same wand? *Looks at three flame wands, three digging wands, two iceblast wands, and the one clouds wand (first clouds wand found in five runs)* gently caress outta here
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Nov 3, 2017 17:27
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FulsomFrank posted:IronicDongz, you've listed a bunch of problems with ghosts some of which same reasonable but I'm curious: are you happier that they're totally gone rather than just re-worked? Is there something wrong with just fixing their issues as you've already described? Nerf their defense, prevent them from having certain spells, reduce their XP... It just seems like another case of tossing the baby with the bath-water because of perceived issues. Like, they're already not accurate copies of the dead characters, and if you nerf them, they're even less so. Why keep them around in that case? Also there aren't many mutators, and they are mostly in extended, just like I said. Half your examples(and the ones that cause mutation more often) are extended, and of the others, 1 is optional and the other comes right at the end of the game. Archenteron posted:... They want to remove scrolls of recharging and let you recharge wands by finding the exact same wand? LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 17:29
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I think his complaint is that if you get rid of recharging scrolls, then being able to recharge them by finding another equally rare wand is kind of bullshit because it removes your choice from the matter. The fact that your lovely wands all stack in charges is nice, but you weren't going to spend a recharging scroll on them anyway.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:33
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one of the other ideas for player ghost reform in the dev plan is to make ghosts temporary allies that help you fight against other monsters(perhaps specifically the kind of monster that killed them), which is exactly in line with this thread's love of flavor and wanting the game to get easier. but none of you are talking about that because apparently you would all rather bitch about how the devs are ruining your fun before they've done it
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Nov 3, 2017 17:34
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I don't hate the devs and I do believe they are trying to make the game better however their and my definition of better has long forked away from each other. I strongly dislike the tomb, malmutate, evocables, certain god changes (bring back Pake with evocables already), ogre, and many other minor changes that add up. Some of the new proposed changes look bad to me to (I like ghosts) While the qol changes over the last ten or so versions have been great it just doesn't match up to the other negatives. I've gotten over a decade of fun out of the game, but I may finally shelf it. Still going to keep up on the thread to see if the development direction changes but ain't holding my breath.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:36
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Zaodai posted:I think his complaint is that if you get rid of recharging scrolls, then being able to recharge them by finding another equally rare wand is kind of bullshit because it removes your choice from the matter. The fact that your lovely wands all stack in charges is nice, but you weren't going to spend a recharging scroll on them anyway. That one, yeah.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:36
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Sure, but the simple solution is the one that is going to get enacted and "remove ghosts" is much simpler than "fix ghosts in a way that makes the game easier and more flavorful", especially when the Devs don't like flavor or ease either one.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:36
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IronicDongz posted:one of the other ideas for player ghost reform in the dev plan is to make ghosts temporary allies that help you fight against other monsters(perhaps specifically the kind of monster that killed them), which is exactly in line with this thread's love of flavor and wanting the game to get easier. but none of you are talking about that because apparently you would all rather bitch about how the devs are ruining your fun before they've done it Cool idea that will literally never happen.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:41
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