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turn off the TV posted:It'd be neat if there was a command structure where the highest level admiral in a system determined how many separate fleets could operate in it before the penalties kick in. I love this idea as it means you also want to time yand that ambushing a high level admiral can make a big difference. quote:I mean, if anything it'll be less intensive for the player because the AI will have to actually move its ships through systems, making the whack a mole fleet chasing gameplay we have now more bearable. Weirdly, I never experienced the whack a mole thing. Although I never focus on engaging the enemy fleet unless I am clearly superior or if I necessary in order to capture a high value system. I try to engage in wars when I have a higher warp tech so I can actually interdict their fleets properly. If it's even FTL tech, I go for planets.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:48
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Nickiepoo posted:Nah just roll with it. Nickiepoo, you speak with the voice of authority. I will roll with it. But if my people all end up enslaved by brainworms you're going to have some explaining to do.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:53
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Dick Trauma posted:But when my people all end up enslaved by brainworms you're going to have some explaining to do.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:56
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Dick Trauma posted:But if my people all end up enslaved by brainworms you're going to have some explaining to do. One thing to always remember about Stellaris - it is possible to lose, and lose FAST. "Oh, hi, an empire I wasn't paying attention to just declared war on me and has 8 times my fleet strength."
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Nov 3, 2017 18:58
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Lum_ posted:One thing to always remember about Stellaris - it is possible to lose, and lose FAST. "Oh, hi, an empire I wasn't paying attention to just declared war on me and has 8 times my fleet strength." I played the Khazars a few times in CKII so I'm familiar with that experience.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:01
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Libluini posted:All this talk about choke points makes me imagine some sort of giant space man choking people From a couple of pages back, but I'm disappointed nobody replied to this with Stardust the Super Wizard. So I will.  Aaand now I want a mod that replaces the Stellarite Devourer with Stardust.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:06
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Given Stadust's nature, he's more likely to be running a variant of a Curator Enclave. He'd be this weird combination of them and a Fallen Empire. Be a decent sort, and he's likely to boost you up or help you out should you need it. Piss him off, and he intervenes. PERSONALLY. Fanatic Purifiers will have something new to fear. Expect not only him wrecking your fleets, but revolutions on your planets from people he grants special super-science equipment to. The world of Fletcher Hanks is an odd one. But it's still one where Evil is Punished. HARD. And often Earth can stand up to things as much as it often needs help from people like Fantomah and Stardust against the weird and wonderful enemies. Bloodly fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:20
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Splicer posted:I'd assume it's a case where you can shove as many ships into a fleet as you like, but they'll be less and less useful somehow so that a 20/10 fleet is only effectively 2 or 3 ships better than a 10/10 fleet. Then if you shove two 10/10 fleets into a battle they're treated exactly like a 20/10 fleet would be. Meanwhile a 10/10 fleet chilling at the edge of the system has no impact because it's not actually doing anything to impact the fight, but if you shoved it into the above battle you're now fielding a 30/10 fleet. The problem with this is that it's going to create the same awful noria meta that currently dominates EU4 where you want to rotate fleets in and out of battle. Its much, much worse than doomstacking is I promise you.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:28
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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A little late, but I think when people say "micro" in this thread, they mean it more in the sense of "micromanagement as busywork" and not deft tactical maneuvers requiring precise hand-eye coordination.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:30
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:I imagine that you would need to station fleets with your static defenses to keep them viable, much like actually manning a fort. I don't remember ever seeing any sci fi space battles between a fleet and only static defenses. There was that episode of DS9.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:32
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OwlFancier posted:There was that episode of DS9. And you know, Star Wars
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Nov 3, 2017 19:35
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Micro is having to constantly remember to cycle through all you 15 core worlds and upgrade buildings when the techs become available or go in and replace half your farms with labs because you have way too much food. It's building the exact same buildings all at once every time a new habitat comes online for the 50th time. It's having to choose between setting your fleet to aggressive and constantly get bogged down with mining stations or passive and have to constantly make sure they're re-ordered to bombard a planet because they got distracted by an enemy fleet for 2 seconds. It's having to click way too many times to do repetitive choiceless things over and over because the automation is really bad or losing focus for even a moment can delay a whole war or even lose it.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:37
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hobbesmaster posted:And you know, Star Wars Oh yeah they didn't have a fleet in the first one did they? I always forget that.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:38
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Once again, the answer to this questionSoup du Jour posted:Are we just using "micro" to mean "thing I don't like" at this point? remains a hard yes. hobbesmaster posted:And you know, Star Wars But the death star wasn't static 
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Nov 3, 2017 19:40
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Baronjutter posted:Micro is having to constantly remember to cycle through all you 15 core worlds and upgrade buildings when the techs become available or go in and replace half your farms with labs because you have way too much food. It's building the exact same buildings all at once every time a new habitat comes online for the 50th time. It's having to choose between setting your fleet to aggressive and constantly get bogged down with mining stations or passive and have to constantly make sure they're re-ordered to bombard a planet because they got distracted by an enemy fleet for 2 seconds. It's having to click way too many times to do repetitive choiceless things over and over because the automation is really bad or losing focus for even a moment can delay a whole war or even lose it. Mind you, that sounds like what was considered "macro" when I used to play Starcraft but I get what you mean.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:41
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Psycho Landlord posted:But the death star wasn't static Yavin 4 was!  I’m trying to remember if any of he skirmishes around Babylon 5 didn’t involve an allied fleet. I don’t actually think so.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:43
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Baronjutter posted:Micro is having to constantly remember to cycle through all you 15 core worlds and upgrade buildings when the techs become available or go in and replace half your farms with labs because you have way too much food. It's building the exact same buildings all at once every time a new habitat comes online for the 50th time. It's having to choose between setting your fleet to aggressive and constantly get bogged down with mining stations or passive and have to constantly make sure they're re-ordered to bombard a planet because they got distracted by an enemy fleet for 2 seconds. It's having to click way too many times to do repetitive choiceless things over and over because the automation is really bad or losing focus for even a moment can delay a whole war or even lose it. That's broadly how I would use it too, it's having simple tasks need doing repeatedly and having too many buttons involved in the process. There's not really any thought involved just a lot of operating menus. It's having to manually do things that don't really need a human to figure out, or aren't entirely worth the time. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:45
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:I imagine that you would need to station fleets with your static defenses to keep them viable, much like actually manning a fort. I don't remember ever seeing any sci fi space battles between a fleet and only static defenses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlhzOE-vXlk
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Nov 3, 2017 19:48
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Yeah I've never really played the classic RTS's like starcraft and poo poo so so I'm not using "micro" in the very specific jargon that group uses it. I'm talking about micro-management, getting in and dealing with what should be minor small-scale things that should either be competently automated or abstracted away. Invading a system should be a one-click thing. Set fleet to aggressive, attach a transport fleet, and they'll automatically bombard, deploy troops when defenses reach 0, and repeat until every enemy planet in the system is taken. When I've built my 50th science habitat I should be able to just in a couple clicks apply a science template to it which automatically builds a paradise dome, leisure district, and fills the rest with labs, or what ever pre-sets I have saved. 1/3 of the "micro" problems in stellaris are legitimate literal micro-management problems that a ruler of an empire shouldn't ever worry about 1/3 are automation or AI issues that push players, specially more OCD ones, to do it all them selves because the AI often fucks up 1/3 are just bad interface problems that could be solved with more hotkeys and macro-orders.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:49
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Also when they lost DS9 to the dominion.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:52
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah I've never really played the classic RTS's like starcraft and poo poo so so I'm not using "micro" in the very specific jargon that group uses it. I'm talking about micro-management, getting in and dealing with what should be minor small-scale things that should either be competently automated or abstracted away. Invading a system should be a one-click thing. Set fleet to aggressive, attach a transport fleet, and they'll automatically bombard, deploy troops when defenses reach 0, and repeat until every enemy planet in the system is taken. When I've built my 50th science habitat I should be able to just in a couple clicks apply a science template to it which automatically builds a paradise dome, leisure district, and fills the rest with labs, or what ever pre-sets I have saved. One of my favorite features of Supreme Commander was that you could save segments of bases and plop them down wherever so you got all your synergy bonuses and fiddly placements right off the bat. You could also make cool looking bits too. That to me is a good example of automating micromanagement while retaining control. Cos some micromanagement is good and interesting, but when you have to do it whether you find it interesting or not, that's a bit irksome.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:52
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hobbesmaster posted:Yavin 4 was!
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Nov 3, 2017 19:54
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hobbesmaster posted:Yavin 4 was! If you count her fighter squadrons, then no, never, but there were a few fights that didn't involve any friendly capships around, pretty sure. Baronjutter posted:Yeah I've never really played the classic RTS's like starcraft and poo poo so so I'm not using "micro" in the very specific jargon that group uses it. I'm talking about micro-management, getting in and dealing with what should be minor small-scale things that should either be competently automated or abstracted away. Invading a system should be a one-click thing. Set fleet to aggressive, attach a transport fleet, and they'll automatically bombard, deploy troops when defenses reach 0, and repeat until every enemy planet in the system is taken. When I've built my 50th science habitat I should be able to just in a couple clicks apply a science template to it which automatically builds a paradise dome, leisure district, and fills the rest with labs, or what ever pre-sets I have saved. I don't disagree that we need better automation and template options for structures and worlds, but yeah, you're using your own definition of that word and it's important to make that distinction. Micro-management and "micro" in strategy games have pretty different connotations in this day and age.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:55
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I don't know if there's a better word for that than micromanagement though, it's kind of what it is, it's the leader of a galactic empire having to sign off on the stationary expenses for planet ZL110384-Beta or else they won't work efficiently. Very much the thing you would delegate or at least create a procedure for so you don't have to fill the form out every time.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:00
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Speaking of micro I’m really glad they changed to having a single governor for the core sector. Teleporting the same governor around every time a building was about to finish was really boring. Yes I know I could just not have done it, but I wanted the exp and I’d want the governor in there to get the build speed bonus for the next building anyway (and build cost from arvhitectural genius). Which reminds me, does anyone know what the 10 day move time for leaders does, if anything? I never noticed any difference between someone who was still traveling and someone who had arrived.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:01
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The fighters don’t count because you can put hangars on stellaris stations too.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:01
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hobbesmaster posted:Also when they lost DS9 to the dominion. Yeah, I think they said the station, without any support, took out like 50 Dominion ships
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Nov 3, 2017 20:07
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PittTheElder posted:The problem with this is that it's going to create the same awful noria meta that currently dominates EU4 where you want to rotate fleets in and out of battle. Its much, much worse than doomstacking is I promise you. Yeah, I wish battles were a much quicker affair in EU4. This thing were the battle grinds on and on and troops can march half-way across a continent to join in is goofy.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:13
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To be fair, the Dominion was smart and had a fleet on the way to play defense for Terok Nor, if it wasn't for Bajoran Jesus pleading with the wormhole aliens to use their console commands, it would have all gone space south for the Federation.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:38
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I think I play Stellaris in a much more laissez-faire way that you guys
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Nov 3, 2017 20:40
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Dukat was Right
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Nov 3, 2017 20:40
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Psycho Landlord posted:Dukat was Right idk fanatic authoritarian/xenophobia doesn’t seem to be a good combo.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:47
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hobbesmaster posted:idk fanatic authoritarian/xenophobia doesn’t seem to be a good combo. Look at this guy, The Cardassian Union is clearly an Oligarchic-government with Authoritarian/Militarist/Xenophobic ethics.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:05
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3 DONG HORSE posted:I think I play Stellaris in a much more laissez-faire way that you guys Yeah this At the end of the day, the micromanagement argument boils down to "how much of the game do you actually want to play and how much do you want to have replaced with pressing a button?" Obviously the answer to this is subjective, meaning that everyone thinks their opinion is Objective Truth. This applies doubly to people who are Good At Video Games, who think they've discovered the One True Build Order and believe that not deploying that by default can only be a disadvantage.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:12
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:I imagine that you would need to station fleets with your static defenses to keep them viable, much like actually manning a fort. I don't remember ever seeing any sci fi space battles between a fleet and only static defenses. Iserlohn Fortress, in Legend of Galactic Heroes comes to mind.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:17
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OwlFancier posted:I don't know if there's a better word for that than micromanagement though, it's kind of what it is, it's the leader of a galactic empire having to sign off on the stationary expenses for planet ZL110384-Beta or else they won't work efficiently. Very much the thing you would delegate or at least create a procedure for so you don't have to fill the form out every time. I think Distant Worlds had a decent solution where you could automate your fleet movements, but could specify rules of engagement. Like for example you could make a "Home Fleet" to set your homeworld's starbase as a home base, set it to Defensive, and set a patrol radius to 500 parsecs or whatever; this made it so if anyone warped into a nearby system and started shooting your stuff, fleets would react automatically and defend your mining station, planet, or whatever. You could set up attacking fleets the same way, which made fighting as a huge empire a lot less tedious. You could set up fleets to have a target and attitudes like "blow up everything you see" vs "go home if an enemy fleet actually shows up" and set a similar radius so they could burn down or just "raid" an area. Meanwhile, you could override automation for your main fleet or whatever you felt needed the personal attention. The character system might be a neat way to implement this, maybe have the power to set RoE attached to appointing an admiral. Interacting with character traits might be fun, like maybe aggressive leaders would have a bit quicker reaction time when set to aggressive tactics? They'd have to be different kind of benefits, though, you wouldn't want to make the player get penalized for leader traits or it gets unfun, like if your fleet runs away from winnable fights because the admiral is Cowardly or something like that. You'd have to make sure not to make the AI retarded, though, it would live or die as a feature based on that. Distant Worlds' automation AI was... OK at managing itself. A little bit frustrating occasionally, you had to babysit raiding fleets sometimes to make sure they didn't find their way into a hairy situation, but it did mean you could kind of leave them to do their own thing for a while while you microed another fleet somewhere else. I think it did improve the "Grand Strategy" aspect a lot and made it much easier to manage multifront wars. Stellaris already has the pop-up system though which could help with that, like you could get a message from your admiral saying "Yo Starfleet is this a good idea?" when their orders are setting them up to attack something with twice their firepower. Vlonald Prump fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 21:48
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On the defensive at least my implementation of that would still be extra AI fleets you get as a result of developing your empire. That way it's not a tradeoff between AI control and player control but rather you get extra stuff for the AI to solve small problems with. Oh also I just thought today that the gate system is going to make allied wars extremely interesting. Because you can share your gates with your allies, meaning your empires functionally overlap.
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Nov 3, 2017 22:06
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You know the gateways are a trap set by a race of extra-galactic genocidal god ships right? Sheeple!
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Nov 3, 2017 22:29
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tooterfish posted:You know the gateways are a trap set by a race of extra-galactic genocidal god ships right? 
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Nov 3, 2017 22:33
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tooterfish posted:You know the gateways are a trap set by a race of extra-galactic genocidal god ships right? That's a very narrow viewpoint. They're not traps, they're merely the agar of the petri dish that is our galaxy; encouraging our growth, until such time that the harvest comes.
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Nov 3, 2017 22:37
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