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Angry Lobster posted:Nah, most people is outraged for the judge's decision of jailing on remand the members of the catalan government, because how they dare jailing someone for defending their ideals??? Facing the consequences of your own acts is absurd, the fact that they knew very well what they were doing is inconsequential, clearly the work of a fascist, repressive estate. There is making them face the consequences of their actions and there is throwing them in jail for 30 years. They are being charged with violent rebellion, which seems harsh (what violent actions did the Generalitat ever take?), and sedition, which also seems a stretch. Additionally, it is arguably unfair that the people who did turn up for the court hearing are being denied bail because Puigdemont didn't turn up, i.e. they are being punished for someone else's actions. They were deposed from their office as per the law, and they have a case to answer for acting ultra vires and misusing public funds. Immediately throwing everyone in jail though is not what justice should look like.
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Nov 3, 2017 10:04
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Pluskut Tukker posted:There is making them face the consequences of their actions and there is throwing them in jail for 30 years. They are being charged with violent rebellion, which seems harsh (what violent actions did the Generalitat ever take?), and sedition, which also seems a stretch. Additionally, it is arguably unfair that the people who did turn up for the court hearing are being denied bail because Puigdemont didn't turn up, i.e. they are being punished for someone else's actions. They were deposed from their office as per the law, and they have a case to answer for acting ultra vires and misusing public funds. Immediately throwing everyone in jail though is not what justice should look like. I was just doing some lovely irony. Let's remember that being charged does not equal with being declared guilty and condemned. Sure, jail on remand has it's critics, and they have a fair point about it but it's hardly ilegal or unknown in continental law. The article you linked is actually sound and makes pretty good points. As someone who worked in law, I agree that this case is not clear cut and the defense have valid arguments against the charges, especially the rebellion one, as it requires violence to stick through and it's the weakest link in the accusation case. There's hardly, if any, precedent in this regard, if the defense plays their cards right they can pull it through. I even dare to say that all the emphasis on non violence and all the seemingly random procedures in the parlament has been in preparation of this moment, to be able to defend against rebellion and sedition charges. Let me quote the article you linked: quote:En estos momentos lo más sencillo es usar la demagogia hablando de presos políticos y hacer críticas extrajurídicas a la actuación de la magistrada, así como explicar los previsibles efectos de este auto en la opinión de los votantes catalanes en pleno período electoral. Voy a hacer un ruego: dejemos a la política y a los políticos en paz. Aquí estamos en presencia de un auto en mi opinión erróneo a todas luces, y no, en ningún caso, ante una medida represiva propia de una dictadura That's exactly what is happening right now, it's not suprising in the least, because it has happened constantly whenever a court makes a decision in this country for, at least, the last twenty years. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 11:09
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True, and people would probably complain about the members of the Catalan government being put on trial regardless of the exact details. I didn't want to make any further point though than that the choice of charges and the denial of bail seems harsh.
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Nov 3, 2017 11:58
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Pluskut Tukker posted:True, and people would probably complain about the members of the Catalan government being put on trial regardless of the exact details. I didn't want to make any further point though than that the choice of charges and the denial of bail seems harsh. Given the damage they caused (mass demonstration, economic damage to Catalonia) charging them with rebellion doesn't seem to far fetched and given that they can rely on a massive support network and the fact that the most high profile member of their group has fled the country, denying bail seems reasonable too.
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Nov 3, 2017 12:13
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As far as I have understood, the concept of rebellion in Spanish law requires that actual violence be involved. Also, Puigdemont left the country before any charges were brought against him and he is not actually in hiding; his whereabouts are known and he is represented by a lawyer through which he can be contacted. So in the legal sense I don't think you can say he is hiding from justice in any way; the Spanish prosecutor can issue a European Arrest Warrant for him and that warrant will be executed through the Belgian court system.
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Nov 3, 2017 12:58
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Pluskut Tukker posted:As far as I have understood, the concept of rebellion in Spanish law requires that actual violence be involved. Also, Puigdemont left the country before any charges were brought against him and he is not actually in hiding; his whereabouts are known and he is represented by a lawyer through which he can be contacted. So in the legal sense I don't think you can say he is hiding from justice in any way; the Spanish prosecutor can issue a European Arrest Warrant for him and that warrant will be executed through the Belgian court system. Take into account that "violence" can also include non-physical violence (coercion, intimidation and the like), and I'm fairly sure that the public prosecutor will try to use that. As there is pretty much no precedent on this exact case, it is very difficult to predict how it will be resolved by the judge.
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Nov 3, 2017 13:47
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It probably would be insufficient to see these officials sentenced merely for misuse of public funds or prevarication given the amount of damage they could have inflicted, economic and otherwise. We'll see what happens but all of political Europe is certainly going to watch the trial closely so it needs to be done right.
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Nov 3, 2017 13:58
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I suppose that, regardless of which way the judgment goes, it'll be like normal justice so it can be appealed to higher and higher courts until it ends up at the ECJ.
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Nov 3, 2017 14:20
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Pluskut Tukker posted:It probably would be insufficient to see these officials sentenced merely for misuse of public funds or prevarication given the amount of damage they could have inflicted, economic and otherwise. We'll see what happens but all of political Europe is certainly going to watch the trial closely so it needs to be done right.
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Nov 3, 2017 14:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Misuse of public funds? Prosecuting for that is a dangerous precedent for European politicians.  some kind of precedent along those lines would be super good and also hilarious
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Nov 3, 2017 15:05
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Cat Mattress posted:I suppose that, regardless of which way the judgment goes, it'll be like normal justice so it can be appealed to higher and higher courts until it ends up at the ECJ. It seems unlikely that the ECJ will find its own competence, because it'd consider this to be a purely internal matter... With the exception of some points of law like possible extradition of Puigdemont & co in Belgium. There's a pretty high chance this poo poo will end up before the European Court of Human Rights though.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:13
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The best thing to come out of this for Belgium is that the N-VA, which has very vocally commented on Muslim immigrants importing their foreign political problems into Belgium, have now imported a foreign political problem into Belgium because the Catalans are their friends.
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Nov 4, 2017 00:11
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nimby posted:The best thing to come out of this for Belgium is that the N-VA, which has very vocally commented on Muslim immigrants importing their foreign political problems into Belgium, have now imported a foreign political problem into Belgium because the Catalans are their friends. I think the irony will go flying over their heads.
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Nov 4, 2017 01:32
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It's all a matter of perspective. I've had brief moments of being proud of Belgium in the past two months, a sensation that was hitherto almost unknown to me. Even Michel pleasantly surprised me by condemning the violence, however meekly, while the rest of Europe stood by and watched in embarrassed silence. It might be an internal matter for Spain, but it still cuts to the heart of what we want Europe to be, the type of Europe we'd like to see for future generations, much like events in Hungary. Best case scenario is either the separatists or the unionists convincingly win 21D, and the other side accepts the results. I fear that this is unrealistic, unfortunately, since a separatist win would likely only serve to increase the repression from Madrid.
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Nov 4, 2017 12:57
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Interesting (if somewhat distasteful) story in the Süddeutsche Zeitung on France and Germany's haggling over who gets to fill the important jobs in the EU in the future suggests that we may have Dijsselbloem to kick around a little longer:quote:Denn am Freitag wurde bekannt, dass in Berlin erwogen wird, die für Dezember geplante Ernennung des nächsten Euro-Gruppen-Chefs zu verschieben. Es werde sondiert, die Amtszeit des bisherigen Präsidenten Jeroen Dijsselbloem "noch etwas zu verlängern". Kein anderer Kandidat dränge sich auf. Genau das ist das Problem: Es gibt nicht den offensichtlichen Dijsselbloem-Nachfolger. Gegen alle möglichen Bewerber sprechen Gesetze der EU-Machtarithmetik. Einmal passt die Partei nicht, mal die Staatsangehörigkeit, mal ist es die mangelnde Qualifikation. The problem is, per the story, basically that there is no suitable candidate to chair the Eurogroup available who has both the right nationality, the right party affiliation and the right qualifications so as to maintain ideological and national balance. The EPP (centre-right/Christian Democrats) already has Dombrovskis as Commissioner for the Euro, Juncker as Commission President, Tajani as EP president, and Barnier as Brexit negotiator. The PES (socialists) already have Moscovici as economic affairs Commissioner and the European South is also sort of represented by Draghi in the ECB, whom the Germans want to see succeeded by current Bundesbank president Jens Weidmann. So this rules out for now GC favourite Peter Kazimir, since he is nominally a social-democrat, or perennial Spanish candidate De Guindos, who is in the EPP. This would perhaps suggest that the post would have to go to an ALDE (liberals) candidate, but there are no ALDE governments in any of the big EU member states. So it is not implausible that Dijsselbloem could stay in place until 2019 when all the jobs will have to be re-asssigned.
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Nov 4, 2017 13:26
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I nominate Varoufakis.
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Nov 4, 2017 15:02
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I understand there are a bunch of Catalonian politicians who might need new jobs, how about one of them?
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Nov 4, 2017 15:11
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Would be a good idea, Puigdemont is already in Brussels, but sadly he's a part of ALDE and so that might not fly.
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Nov 4, 2017 15:22
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Cat Mattress posted:I nominate Varoufakis. I second this motion.
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Nov 4, 2017 22:21
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Cat Mattress posted:I nominate Varoufakis.
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Nov 4, 2017 22:26
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Also if I ever meet Dijsselbloem I want to shake his hand, smile politely and tell him he did an OK job as finance minister, for a VVD politician.
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Nov 4, 2017 22:35
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I nominate myself
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Nov 5, 2017 00:34
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https://twitter.com/elespanolcom/status/927434374823514112 Also an interesting story here in La Vanguardia with graphs on support over time for Catalan independence since 2006. There is a steady rise in support, but support for independence only really lifts off after the PP government takes over in early 2012. Support for independence reaches a maximum of 48% in favour in 2014, but falls steadily since then, despite the unofficial consultation of late 2014 and the election win of the Junts pel Sì coalition in 2015. There has never in the last decade been a majority of the Catalan population polled in favour of independence. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 09:00
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Pluskut Tukker posted:https://twitter.com/elespanolcom/status/927434374823514112 Unless I'm reading this wrong, the PP is losing 20 seats and over 5% of the share of votes.
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Nov 6, 2017 09:12
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Unless I'm reading this wrong, the PP is losing 20 seats and over 5% of the share of votes. I am dumb and I haven't had enough coffee yet. Clearly people are moving from the PP to C's.
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Nov 6, 2017 09:16
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Pluskut Tukker posted:but support for independence only really lifts off after the PP government takes over in early 2012. I’d argue that this has more to do with the cuts in social services in Catalonia and the Generalitat searching for a scapegoat (Spain) as a remedy for their plummeting ratings (CiU lost 12 of their 60 seats in the 2012 elections) than anything PP did. Fake EDIT: Wait, the Government did refuse to negotiate giving Catalonia special snowflake status regarding taxes. That helped.
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Nov 6, 2017 09:35
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Fat Samurai posted:I’d argue that this has more to do with the cuts in social services in Catalonia and the Generalitat searching for a scapegoat (Spain) as a remedy for their plummeting ratings (CiU lost 12 of their 60 seats in the 2012 elections) than anything PP did. I didn't know about that in particular, I figured it might have to do either with a reaction to the Spanish nationalism of the PP or perhaps a reaction to the labour reform or the banking bailout. But it's more likely you're right and it's something specific to Catalonia.
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Nov 6, 2017 09:56
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I had no idea C's had a presence outside of Catalonia, I thought defending Spain was their entire gimmick. Anyway, it's the results in Catalonia that matter. They might do well there, but I don't see them being able to form a government unless it includes literally every non-separatist party. The big problem is the separatists don't have a hottie like Inés Arrimadas. Puigdemont looks like a dopey accountant.
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Nov 6, 2017 12:33
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Phlegmish posted:I had no idea C's had a presence outside of Catalonia, I thought defending Spain was their entire gimmick. Anyway, it's the results in Catalonia that matter. They might do well there, but I don't see them being able to form a government unless it includes literally every non-separatist party. C's spread like an out of control herpes the last 5 years,hitting peak rash in 2015.The idea was some sensible centrism, no corruption, no bullshit with catalonia. Which was just a bunch of poo poo, they are just a lot of right wing shills without the smelly parochial and paternalistic Catholicism of PP, they'll whore themselves, their mothers and if they could you just to get a sniff of power.
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Nov 6, 2017 13:25
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So, politicians, then?
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Nov 6, 2017 13:37
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Different color, same bullcrap.
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Nov 6, 2017 13:38
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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/925469194543665152 UKIP totally aren't neo-nazis, guys.
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Nov 6, 2017 15:22
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Truga posted:https://twitter.com/thehill/status/925469194543665152 Is his party still dying in the wake of the Tories swinging hard right?
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Nov 6, 2017 16:18
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Truga posted:https://twitter.com/thehill/status/925469194543665152
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Nov 6, 2017 16:28
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MiddleOne posted:Is his party still dying in the wake of the Tories swinging hard right? his party died because they were a single issue movement and emphatically won, taking out the government in the process. After that it just sort of descended into the defence spokesman beating up a leadership candidate in Brussels and then fleeing Europe.
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Nov 6, 2017 16:29
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Truga posted:https://twitter.com/thehill/status/925469194543665152 I mean, there definitely is an Israel lobby in the US that has an outsized influence on US foreign policy. But thats not the same as a Jewish lobby by a longshot. Good to see UKIP moving even further to the crazy-right and future electoral insignificance though.
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Nov 6, 2017 18:53
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A Jewish lobby with disproportionate power probably wouldn't have resulted in the Breitbart candidate becoming president. Just my opinion, though.
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Nov 6, 2017 19:17
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Cat Mattress posted:A Jewish lobby with disproportionate power probably wouldn't have resulted in the Breitbart candidate becoming president. Just my opinion, though.
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Nov 6, 2017 19:29
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The far right managed to get the meme of George Soros as a shadowy puppetmaster to be a mainstream conservative talking point, so antisemitism has been trickling down for a while to people who don't really get what they're going along with.
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Nov 6, 2017 19:35
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The whole being pro-Zionist for evangelical reasons, but also now being told they should be anti-international-Jewish-conspiracy by Trump/Breibart, is going be an interesting squaring of a circle for right-wing Americans to grasp.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:30
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