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Captain Foo posted:holy poo poo I read this post before reading the username and I knew it was you gently caress me with a brick it’s you How’s it been ADOM TG survivor 
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Nov 5, 2017 02:09
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Black August posted:gently caress me with a brick it’s you Pretty good, hope you're well! You still active in the 103?
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Nov 5, 2017 02:35
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Here's how I would describe these games: [*]Deathstate: Dodging is the key, and all you really have to focus on. A reflex-poor player can do well in this game, but the higher difficulty levels are crazy. Or, it's my favorite out of this genre because it's fun and I'm actually decent at it!
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Nov 5, 2017 02:46
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Enter the Gungeon is getting a big overhaul, though they're pretty vague about what means just yet. 'Too slow' is among the things they're fixing. And which is the popcorn enemy? I only remember the popcorn left by the poo slimes, and those are harmless. I've got to get Nuclear Throne at some point apparently.
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Nov 5, 2017 02:50
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vorebane posted:Enter the Gungeon is getting a big overhaul, though they're pretty vague about what means just yet. 'Too slow' is among the things they're fixing. And which is the popcorn enemy? I only remember the popcorn left by the poo slimes, and those are harmless. popcorn enemy == trash mob
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Nov 5, 2017 02:51
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nuclear throne is pretty much a distillation of what makes a game feel good to actually play and it has actually interesting gameplay on top of that i also recommend cryptark for sure. it's less of a crapshoot ever since they did some balance patches
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Nov 5, 2017 03:09
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Nuclear Throne is super depressing though. At no part of the game is there any hope of poo poo getting better, storywise. 
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Nov 5, 2017 03:13
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Artificer posted:Nuclear Throne is super depressing though. At no part of the game is there any hope of poo poo getting better, storywise. everything hurts
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Nov 5, 2017 03:20
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FLASHYN
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Nov 5, 2017 03:22
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Artificer posted:Nuclear Throne is super depressing though. At no part of the game is there any hope of poo poo getting better, storywise. If only you could talk to the monsters.
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Nov 5, 2017 03:25
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Artificer posted:Nuclear Throne is super depressing though. At no part of the game is there any hope of poo poo getting better, storywise. i don't need no bread, i don't need no home, just a bag of severed heads and my nuclear throne
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Nov 5, 2017 03:55
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There's no reason to fight. And yeah, "popcorn enemies" are the ones that aren't supposed to amount to more than a speedbump. Most of the enemies on level 1 in Gungeon are popcorn, but they have entirely too much health for the level of threat they present.
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Nov 5, 2017 03:55
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A lot of people say that Nuclear Throne feels super good, but I really like the feel of Gungeon more. The movement and animations have really good... kinesthetics, I guess? And I really like the constant bullet hell patterns, because they're almost all patterns. In addition, Throne is generally too fast for my tastes - or, really, it's fine for a lot of the time, but certain enemies and bosses are too speedy for me. I just can't understand the complaints about Gungeon being too slow; it doesn't feel that way to me at all. If it sounds like I'm against NT, I'm not; I think it's a really good game, and I've destroyed the Throne a couple times. I just don't find myself coming back to it constantly.
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Nov 5, 2017 04:14
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See I favor NT a lot more in part because it rewards twitchy reactionary play rather than measured calm bullet hell dodging. I'm really bad at bullet hell but I can do a decent job with NT since it's just tapping into instinct rather than weaving through a visual pattern.
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Nov 5, 2017 04:17
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John Lee posted:A lot of people say that Nuclear Throne feels super good, but I really like the feel of Gungeon more. The movement and animations have really good... kinesthetics, I guess? And I really like the constant bullet hell patterns, because they're almost all patterns. In addition, Throne is generally too fast for my tastes - or, really, it's fine for a lot of the time, but certain enemies and bosses are too speedy for me. I just can't understand the complaints about Gungeon being too slow; it doesn't feel that way to me at all. I guess I fit your hypothesis. Beyond liking Gungeon beacuse it's so incredibly polished, I come from a bullet-hell background - beat all the Touhous on normal - and even though Gungeon does actually feel slow and tedious at times, I'm attracted to its gameplay much more than NT.
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Nov 5, 2017 04:22
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Here's how I would describe these games: I agree with this. It's just there's a lot of garbage indie games out there and I wouldn't count Gungeon among them.
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Nov 5, 2017 04:50
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idk if I'd call monolith "shallow", just because it doesn't have a ton of items doesn't mean the gameplay is less deep than any other isaac like. the real depth comes from the gameplay, not rng item drops to give a shallow sense of replayability, and monolith provides that with interesting and challenging bullet patterns.
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Nov 5, 2017 05:22
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Captain Foo posted:Pretty good, hope you're well! You still active in the 103? I’m doin’ ok. Ditched into the background noise from TG once SA started to decline. Just keeping on and loafing in my treehouse in irc with Muk and Aeo. Them, me, No Control and Fraction have been running ADOM 3 for the last 5 years, and it’s about to end in a year. Finally caught the big one.
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Nov 5, 2017 05:53
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I wanted to like Gungeon a lot, it's visually polished and very clean overall. I just wish I did significantly more damage and that the maps were more compact. Plinking forever at a boss, unless I was lucky and got a gun that was out of depth, is super lame.
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Nov 5, 2017 06:45
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There was kind of a hump I had with gungeon, where I had a lot of problems with it, and then I hit a point where I found it all very fun and enjoyable. There were a few updates that improved the game, but I think there's just an aspect of the game you sort of have to get used to in regards to not being scared of running out of ammo and being able to consistently avoid damage. I do think health is generally too high, tho.
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Nov 5, 2017 06:52
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I definitely thing Gungeon would be improved by having more enemies overall, but with less health. Its way more fun to blast a room full of 20 weaklings than it is to blast 1 single bullet sponge. Nuclear Throne recognized this I think, I love how you can blast the first boss to pieces in like a second if you know what you're doing.
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Nov 5, 2017 07:09
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PMush Perfect posted:I deeply appreciate the hunter class in Gungeon for starting with a weapon that can actually one-shot the popcorn. Up until you realize "oh god there are no ammo drops ever I need to save all my crossbow ammo for bosses or actual threats" and go back to plinking at the trash enemies with your infinite ammo pistol forever.
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Nov 5, 2017 10:28
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ammo drops based on how much ammo you've used up
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Nov 5, 2017 10:41
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i mean, sometimes you'll run out of ammo for a weapon, but that's what your basic weapon is realistically for when the loot rng isn't the worst, a backup plan
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Nov 5, 2017 10:42
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Tollymain posted:i mean, sometimes you'll run out of ammo for a weapon, but that's what your basic weapon is realistically for when the loot rng isn't the worst, a backup plan At launch it was more like ammo didn't loving drop ever and since you can only make a first impression once a lot of us haven't bothered trying it since.
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Nov 5, 2017 10:47
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Tollymain posted:ammo drops based on how much ammo you've used up
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Nov 5, 2017 10:47
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There was a bug where using the starting weapon to clear a room made ammo drops a lot less likely. So specifically the players who were predisposed to use an unfun weapon because of worries about ammo conservation had that tendency reinforced.
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Nov 5, 2017 10:56
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pumpinglemma posted:There was a bug where using the starting weapon to clear a room made ammo drops a lot less likely. So specifically the players who were predisposed to use an unfun weapon because of worries about ammo conservation had that tendency reinforced. The problem is that even fun weapons tend to get plinky as levels pass. You get to the last levels unloading entire cartridges of the once fun ak on basic mooks. And if you get one of the joke weapons you can get totally screwed on the hp arms race
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Nov 5, 2017 14:09
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The site appears to have been Dreamhost nuked at some point, but for all the chatter above I quite recommend folks somehow wrangling a way and/or bothering(alerting? Though I want to say I remember him raging...) teknopants so as to give Shoot First! a proper go. Shoot First! happened prior to NT, and to my mind, represents a fine alternative line that just didn't have the timing in terms of the marketplaces and more to catch fire as was more than warranted. I will always have a soft spot for it.
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Nov 5, 2017 14:54
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IronicDongz posted:idk if I'd call monolith "shallow", just because it doesn't have a ton of items doesn't mean the gameplay is less deep than any other isaac like. the real depth comes from the gameplay, not rng item drops to give a shallow sense of replayability, and monolith provides that with interesting and challenging bullet patterns. It's "shallow" mostly in the sense that there's not a lot of replayability to it. You can grind to purchase new weapons, but otherwise you pretty much just have a few runs on Normal to unlock the last level, then however many runs it takes you to beat Hard -- assuming you care about Hard because it's the same content as Normal, just amped up in various ways. In every run you're going to see the same core upgrades and mostly the same weapons, so there isn't that Isaac-like "what if I find a completely game-changing item this run?" aspect encouraging replays. I enjoyed the game, don't get me wrong. It's just that after 9 hours I feel like I've wrung everything I can from it. Considering what it cost, I've more than gotten my money's worth, it's just that in comparison to the other games being talked about here, it's much more of a "what you see is what you get" game.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:20
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Oh, and a thing that really bugs me about Gungeon (that also happens to add to the bullet sponge effect): mobs have a global hp multiplier that goes up per level. So I spend a level with the basic enemy taking three shots, then I enter a room in a new level with enemies on two sides of me. I shoot at one side until I see that a third shot will connect with the thing, then move towards him expecting safety, but he's not actually dead. This will probably go away with practice but for now it annoys me to no end.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:28
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Black August posted:I’m doin’ ok. Ditched into the background noise from TG once SA started to decline. Just keeping on and loafing in my treehouse in irc with Muk and Aeo. Them, me, No Control and Fraction have been running ADOM 3 for the last 5 years, and it’s about to end in a year. Finally caught the big one. Mirrors my story, basically, I'm barely around though I have been running some successful and some failed Apocalypse World games, and am mostly in 219 and Twitter these days. Bringing it back to roguelikes, sort of, I always thought ADOM had amazing world building and was conceptually cool but the mechanics were brutal. Incidentally, what Black August did, converting the setting into a tabletop rpg, was really, really cool.
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Nov 5, 2017 16:03
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Every single person here is an apologist for some bad game.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's "shallow" mostly in the sense that there's not a lot of replayability to it. You can grind to purchase new weapons, but otherwise you pretty much just have a few runs on Normal to unlock the last level, then however many runs it takes you to beat Hard -- assuming you care about Hard because it's the same content as Normal, just amped up in various ways. In every run you're going to see the same core upgrades and mostly the same weapons, so there isn't that Isaac-like "what if I find a completely game-changing item this run?" aspect encouraging replays.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:36
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SKULL.GIF posted:I wanted to like Gungeon a lot, it's visually polished and very clean overall. I just wish I did significantly more damage and that the maps were more compact. Plinking forever at a boss, unless I was lucky and got a gun that was out of depth, is super lame. SolidSnakesBandana posted:I definitely thing Gungeon would be improved by having more enemies overall, but with less health. Its way more fun to blast a room full of 20 weaklings than it is to blast 1 single bullet sponge. Nuclear Throne recognized this I think, I love how you can blast the first boss to pieces in like a second if you know what you're doing. I think the sticking point here is that Gungeon is all about bullet avoidance. Nuclear Throne can easily have bosses that last three seconds or less, but the bosses in Gungeon HAVE to be able to get off more than a dozen attacks. You're being tested on the ability to eave and dodge through interlocking bullet patterns, and being able to entirely chump the bosses or enemies would take away that aspect entirely. It's not an accident that the first floor bosses all have major attacks that shoot directly at you, but you can't quiiiite just run away from, or that the company is Dodge Roll Games, or that the dodge roll is the Gungeon's gift to those locked inside it. Conversely, when Throne starts up, you see that you have eight health, which SOUNDS good until you take 3-5 damage from all the enemies, giving you either two or three hits before you're flat on the floor. It'd be bullshit, except that both you and enemies are fragile as all hell; some people prefer it, some people don't. Dancer posted:Oh, and a thing that really bugs me about Gungeon (that also happens to add to the bullet sponge effect): mobs have a global hp multiplier that goes up per level. So I spend a level with the basic enemy taking three shots, then I enter a room in a new level with enemies on two sides of me. I shoot at one side until I see that a third shot will connect with the thing, then move towards him expecting safety, but he's not actually dead. This will probably go away with practice but for now it annoys me to no end. This, on the other hand, is annoying as hell. You have a strong tendency to get better GUNS as you go, but straight damage increases also exist... it's just that they're relatively rare. Different, beefier varieties of enemies show up, and it bugs me to have the same guys just get beefier along with it. It seems mildly at odds with the game's design in other way, y'know?
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Nov 5, 2017 20:23
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The funny thing is you should play gungeon like NT. Clearing rooms aggressively frees up a lot of space.
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Nov 5, 2017 20:27
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John Lee posted:I think the sticking point here is that Gungeon is all about bullet avoidance. Nuclear Throne can easily have bosses that last three seconds or less, but the bosses in Gungeon HAVE to be able to get off more than a dozen attacks. You're being tested on the ability to eave and dodge through interlocking bullet patterns, and being able to entirely chump the bosses or enemies would take away that aspect entirely. It's not an accident that the first floor bosses all have major attacks that shoot directly at you, but you can't quiiiite just run away from, or that the company is Dodge Roll Games, or that the dodge roll is the Gungeon's gift to those locked inside it. If you look at most bullet hell games, the vast majority of enemies die in 1 hit. They exist to distract you from the more beefy enemies, of which there's generally 1 or maybe 2 at a time that create more complex patterns for you to dodge. Then the bosses are bullet sponges and get off a dozen or more attacks. I'm legit curious if the Gungeon devs tried having the "most enemies die in one hit, but each room gets a few super-enemies" approach that seems like the obvious mirror to a classic bullet hell. It seems like it would work pretty well, but maybe there's something I'm missing? I mean, I know that Gungeon does have plenty of rooms that combine a few chaff enemies with one or two bigger ones, but the chaff still have a lot of hitpoints, and there are plenty of rooms that consist of nothing but chaff.
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Nov 5, 2017 20:28
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I mean, I personally don't feel like the chaff have a lot of hitpoints. They die in 2-3 seconds, it's not like an intense struggle for survival. But I don't think the one-hit enemies would work with the design well; there just wouldn't be any bullets to dodge because the enemies would all have melted. Even if there was a huge amount of enemies to make up for it, most rooms would still be trivialized by a significant portion of the guns, like anything with a beam, or homing attacks, or just a really high firing rate. You could change that and remove some gun types, but then you've reached the part where you're just making an entirely different game. It just wouldn't be the Gungeon without huge amounts of guns and protoguns (and one sword).
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Nov 5, 2017 20:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu3mIqfnVuQ DDP's the beamiest, chaffiest game and boy are there still a lot of bullets
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Nov 5, 2017 20:45
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John Lee posted:But I don't think the one-hit enemies would work with the design well; there just wouldn't be any bullets to dodge because the enemies would all have melted.
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Nov 5, 2017 20:46
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