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FRINGE posted:Ive done both, and the players almost always get more of sense of investment when they roll. That combined with the table excitement of everyone "rolling up characters" makes it worth it, even if its rigged to end up avg-high with some constraints. I think this is true. Also they don't seem to resent a poorly rolled score as much as they resent that 8 that the standard array forces you to use. Back to wizard talk Since you pick up your school archetype at level two, there's even an argument for level one spells being the only ones which are simple enough/don't require contradictory modes of thinking enough for any wizard to learn. A fluff thing for spells is that they're secrets that break the world. The human mind can't comprehend too many of these at the same time without breaking. They're the principle of "Everything is true, even false things." taken to their logical extreme. Therefore, for instance, doing the mental gymnastics to specialise in Abjuration (and get the bonus abilities) means you can't understand how Illusion and Alteration spells work; the things that you need to believe for them to work can't be reconciled with the truths you've learnt from being an Abjurer without going mad. No dining at the restaurant at the end of the universe for specialist wizards. Generalists can learn higher level spells from opposing schools than a specialist can because they haven't committed to the thoughts required. Their higher level spells must be in ritual form because that's a way of taking on the modes of thought required to cast them without permanently altering your paradigm. (to get all Mage:tA in here for a moment). Fighter thoughts In my games I just roll the Champion fighter up into the base class. I've just had a thought about Battle masters (and any other archetype that get superiority dice). The change I'd make is this: A battle master (or character with the feat that gives manoeuvrers) doesn't need to spend dice to use their abilities. Spending the dice makes it so that the effect just works. Your opponent doesn't get a save against being pushed, your Allies' attack that you activate with Commander's Strike hits automatically and so on.
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Nov 5, 2017 09:58
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Angrymog posted:Would multiclassing into something that works better at range work for you? Could one of the people with a better con score take up the tank role? Could you just ask your GM if you could swop your Con score with another one as you didn't realise what a big impact it would have? We ended up having a discussion about this, and she said she'd be either willing to let people swap scores one time before the next session, or let us take advantage on rolls (and retroactively apply the higher rolls to current HP.) It sounds like the latter has the most potential for helping me out in the short term, but I figured since the whole party would be affected that we would run it by them first before deciding. One class I was considering dipping into was actually Sorcerer, both for the flavor (kobold) and to take advantage of his high CHA, so maybe I can also consider that. Fighter could also give Archery as a fighting style + second wind for the times he doesn't totally go down like a punk, but yeah I'll definitely look into different classes.
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Nov 5, 2017 11:06
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gandhichan posted:I did ask if I could use Inspiration for a bad HP roll, but she argued that HP rolls were too permanent to reroll. But I might bring it up before he hits 4 because welp, worth a shot. Suggestion: get murdered, come back as a revenant.
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Nov 5, 2017 11:41
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Angrymog posted:I've just had a thought about Battle masters (and any other archetype that get superiority dice). The change I'd make is this: A battle master (or character with the feat that gives manoeuvrers) doesn't need to spend dice to use their abilities. Spending the dice makes it so that the effect just works. Your opponent doesn't get a save against being pushed, your Allies' attack that you activate with Commander's Strike hits automatically and so on. So they can use the abilities any time with a roll, or they can spend a resource and make sure it happens? Yeah, that sounds real good. As far as rolling Champion into the base, that's what one of my groups has been doing since forever, and it's ok I guess. Makes the numbers bigger on a battlemaster, but doesn't really make the battlemaster do anyhting any more interesting. HAven't seen what'd happen with EK, but I guess it'd be the same thing. Thinking about it, I've never seen anyone play an EK.
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Nov 5, 2017 12:18
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AlphaDog posted:So they can use the abilities any time with a roll, or they can spend a resource and make sure it happens? Yeah, that sounds real good. AlphaDog posted:As far as rolling Champion into the base, that's what one of my groups has been doing since forever, and it's ok I guess. Makes the numbers bigger on a battlemaster, but doesn't really make the battlemaster do anyhting any more interesting. HAven't seen what'd happen with EK, but I guess it'd be the same thing. Thinking about it, I've never seen anyone play an EK. 
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Nov 5, 2017 13:08
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Conspiratiorist posted:Your character is hosed. A paladin who can't take a hit is all but useless before level 6 and even then all it'll get to do is be a Bless bot with an aura and substandard healing. Is Great Weapon Fighting bad even if you use a 2 handed sword?
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Nov 5, 2017 15:37
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CJ posted:Is Great Weapon Fighting bad even if you use a 2 handed sword? Maybe he could multiclass Rogue to level two and spend all his turns running at engaged enemies, short swording them with sneaky smite, then cunning actioning a disengage and running away.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:41
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thehoodie posted:Any tips for paying a low charisma character? My Dwarf Cleric has 4 charisma. I'm getting tired of being grumpy and my group is getting tired of me starting fights because of being disagreeable. Easy - odious personal habits. Your dwarf spits chewing tabacco and has stains of it running down his beard. He Belcher and farts without restraint. Picks his ears in front of the king, his nails are long and yellowed and rimmed with black. Bad BO. A number of possibilities without picking fights that still - flavorfully - let's everyone know he is uncouth. I generally use CHA as a dump Stat and for my Lizardfolk I have him eat parts off fallen foes (especially rotting ones). And instead of throwing myself into social situations I keep quiet since I know my character isn't as good at them (although I don't mind suggesting stuff to other players to help keep things moving). Edit: Also don't forget appearance - he has a pock marked face from a plague or acne, a web of scars that cross his face that make him uncomfortable to look at, or maybe he was burned at one point and his skin melted and ran like wax, maybe interfering with speech. Lots of options. Also, is your wisdom negative also? If not, he should be wise enough to know when not to be crude and an rear end in a top hat and when not to be. If he has everything described above he would still be smart enough to know that sometimes he has to make an effort and do his best to negate his downfalls - to be selfaware - and try not to appear like a jackass in front of the king. Ceros_X fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 15:55
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Also I just want to take a moment to express how really, really good this game is. A game where you can build a melee tank according to the default rules and class' quick build guide, follow the level up rules to the letter, and end up with less melee survivability than the average ranged blaster. Absolutely top notch and a wonderful introduction to the hobby.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:57
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Splicer posted:Also I just want to take a moment to express how really, really good this game is. A game where you can build a melee tank according to the default rules and class' quick build guide, follow the level up rules to the letter, and end up with less melee survivability than the average ranged blaster. Absolutely top notch and a wonderful introduction to the hobby. yeah but learning to deal with such deficiencies is called roleplaying, you filthy minmaxer
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Nov 5, 2017 16:08
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So yeah, your 12 HP lvl 3 Paladin is in trouble mechanically, but let's look at it from a RP perspective. What you've got is a guy (or gal) who is pure of heart, mighty with his or her god's favor, but also poor of health and tires easily. You've got someone who probably shouldn't be on the front lines due to health but chooses to be there anyway because they're just that dedicated to the cause. So play that up. Be out of breath after a battle and tire easily. Let everyone know you're not in good health but don't complain about it and accept your condition stoically. Don't suicide your character, but don't hide either. If you do die, try to go out nobly so that the DM and the other players remember your sacrifice. If, on the other hand, you manage to survive and contribute through the end of the campaign, you'll have a memorable character whose story you can tell for the rest of your gaming career. "You think that's bad? I had a Paladin with a 9 Constitution..." This game isn't just about getting the best bonuses and optimal builds. It's as much or more about telling a good story, and you've got the seed of a good story there. Don't waste that opportunity.
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Nov 5, 2017 16:11
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jng2058 posted:So yeah, your 12 HP lvl 3 Paladin is in trouble mechanically, but let's look at it from a RP perspective. What you've got is a guy (or gal) who is pure of heart, mighty with his or her god's favor, but also poor of health and tires easily. You've got someone who probably shouldn't be on the front lines due to health but chooses to be there anyway because they're just that dedicated to the cause. Yeah it's going to be a great story when he dies three battles in
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Nov 5, 2017 16:14
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Is there a site or app I can pull up on my phone to check the mechanics of my paladin spells without asking for a pbh to sift through?
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Nov 5, 2017 16:21
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Andrast posted:Yeah it's going to be a great story when he dies three battles in Might be if you play it right.  CJ posted:Is there a site or app I can pull up on my phone to check the mechanics of my paladin spells without asking for a pbh to sift through? Sure. Just look for "5e spellbook" in your app store of choice and you'll have a few options.
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Nov 5, 2017 16:25
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jng2058 posted:So yeah, your 12 HP lvl 3 Paladin is in trouble mechanically, but let's look at it from a RP perspective. What you've got is a guy (or gal) who is pure of heart, mighty with his or her god's favor, but also poor of health and tires easily. You've got someone who probably shouldn't be on the front lines due to health but chooses to be there anyway because they're just that dedicated to the cause. "Yes your car can't actually drive, you're late to work every day, and going anywhere recreationally is a miserable chore, but imagine how much fun you'll have later one-upping people who drove marginally less lovely cars!" e: I mean, yes if it's a one-time thing, but what you and a lot of game designers don't seem to remember is that D&D is now about involved character creation designed around long term campaigns. The 12HP paladin is a fun story from a one-shot, not a fun story when it's your primary RPG outlet for potentially months until you snap and tell the Cleric to gently caress off and just let you die. Splicer fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 16:27
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Splicer posted:Also I just want to take a moment to express how really, really good this game is. A game where you can build a melee tank according to the default rules and class' quick build guide, follow the level up rules to the letter, and end up with less melee survivability than the average ranged blaster. Absolutely top notch and a wonderful introduction to the hobby. To be fair point buy and average hit point gain are part of the rules for a reason. It’s not the game’s fault if his GM chooses to ignore rules.
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Nov 5, 2017 16:54
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What makes spellcasters better than fighters isn't the ability to make something definitely happen, but the ability to make something happen that would be insanely overpowered if you could do it more than once a day. Abilities that are Reliable or that deal half damage or a lesser effect on miss or whatever are all good design, especially when their "everything went your way" effect would be outrageously unfair to the victim if it couldn't fail, but the key thing martial characters are missing is per-day powers, not unerringly accurate powers. Also, in the battlemaster's case, high-level powers. So if you had d8s that came back per short rest, and d12s that came back per long rest, and also your maneuvers did special/extra stuff when you funded them with d12s, and ALSO there was such a thing as a level 5 maneuver or a level 10 maneuver...
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Nov 5, 2017 17:24
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CJ posted:To be fair point buy and average hit point gain are part of the rules for a reason. It’s not the game’s fault if his GM chooses to ignore rules. Rolling is the default, average is an alternative. Though you make a point, rules as written, it's up to the player to decide if they roll or take the average. gandhichan: Just take the average and if your GM has an issue with your mighty 19HP just tell her you want to actually enjoy the game and be able to play your melee dude as a melee dude as per the rules.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:40
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Splicer posted:Its always fun playing madlibs with these kinds of posts and putting in other activities. And what you and a lot of "numbers are all" types don't seem to remember is that it is possible to have fun with sub-optimal stats. Where the line is between "this is a handicap but I'm going to have fun overcoming it" and "this character isn't fun to play, gimme a new one" isn't an objective line that you can graph. It's subjective based on the preferences of the player. Con 9 Paladin is unplayable for you. Fine, we got that. But it might not be for everyone. I'm not even saying that Infinity Gaia has to try to stick it out with a Con 9 Pally. What I am saying is that if you wanted to try playing that character, here's some RP ways to try and make it work. It could be fun to try. I don't know anything about IG's group. How much do they RP vs how much do they bash gobbos in the face? Obviously a RP heavy group makes sub-optimal PCs more viable than one that's powergaming its way through a published module. Do you want to dump the character? If you do, that's fine. You've got a pretty bad draw there. But if you want to give it a try and see if its fun to play the Paladin with tuberculosis? Hey, here's what I'd try from a RP standpoint. Nothing more, nothing less. 
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Nov 5, 2017 18:03
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jng2058 posted:And what you and a lot of "numbers are all" types don't seem to remember is that it is possible to have fun with sub-optimal stats. Where the line is between "this is a handicap but I'm going to have fun overcoming it" and "this character isn't fun to play, gimme a new one" isn't an objective line that you can graph. It's subjective based on the preferences of the player. Con 9 Paladin is unplayable for you. Fine, we got that. But it might not be for everyone. I'm not even saying that Infinity Gaia has to try to stick it out with a Con 9 Pally.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:12
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I can’t wait to RP a character that’s lovely at everything and can’t successfully interact with most of the rules in the book I bought. That is my ultimate fantasy world.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:29
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jng2058 posted:And what you and a lot of "numbers are all" types don't seem to remember is that it is possible to have fun with sub-optimal stats. People aren't saying it's impossible to have fun with sub-optimal stats. They're saying it not only impacts things mechanically, but changes your character on a roleplaying level. I usually have some idea of the character I want to play before I begin. Some characters I've made have been clearly sub-optimal for the game they're in, and I've only played with point-buy for years, so I've done this all intentionally. Having a frontliner who's not good in the front line is a potentially good character (and I'd 100% be behind a character like the type you've suggested), but I'd want to choose to play that character. Sometimes you want to play the tough guy, the one who can take a beating and keep on ticking, and I think it's frustrating if I have to change a significant aspect of my character because I rolled a couple of 1s. Just the same, I'd be frustrated if I wanted to play the delicate character who needs to be protected and I find myself with much stronger defenses than the frontliners. I know I'm risking sounding like a "numbers are all" type, but those numbers are how you interact with large parts of the game, and people will treat your character differently based on how they act, mechanically. Now, it wouldn't be so bad in a short game, a one-shot or something. But if I'm playing the same character for potentially months, then I'm likely shooting for something specific. I'd be frustrated more than inspired if someone told me it was a great RP opportunity to play a character other than the one I wanted to play.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:31
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I feel like the "roleplay your way out of a mechanically horrendous character" is very much an imagined, idealistic thing from people with bizarre views on balance and how one should interact with the genre, and is very flimsily propped up by a handful of exaggerated or entirely made up anecdotes about how this one time we totally had session with a character like that where it wasn't completely miserable let me yell you all about it.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:40
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The way you roleplay your way out of a character who keeps rolling 1 for hp is by wearing no armor, always charging into the forefront of every battle, etc.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:50
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CJ posted:Is Great Weapon Fighting bad even if you use a 2 handed sword? It's good for greatswords, and only for greatswords. But Paladins are better off using a Halberd or Quarterstaff with the Polearm Master feat.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:31
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It also overlooks that most RPGs are a team game. A seriously sub-optimal character affects the entire party. Does everyone want to roleplay around how Steve is useless at sorcering again?
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Nov 5, 2017 19:48
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Why is there always someone willing to pop up and go, "Uh, no, actually, you are all the wrong ones for wanting a game to be well designed and if you think about it a shittily designed game is actually better because of a bunch of things that actually have nothing to do with the actual problem while also being things that well-made games can have too"
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Nov 5, 2017 19:54
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Soylent Pudding posted:It also overlooks that most RPGs are a team game. A seriously sub-optimal character affects the entire party. Does everyone want to roleplay around how Steve is useless at sorcering again? I did that once and the group approached me for an intervention.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:55
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Conspiratiorist posted:It's good for greatswords, and only for greatswords. Why are polearms better for paladins specifically?
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Nov 5, 2017 19:56
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CJ posted:Why are polearms better for paladins specifically? With the feat, specifically, it gives you a much more reliable AoO trigger and it gives you an always-on option to use your Bonus for damage
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Nov 5, 2017 19:59
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Darwinism posted:Why is there always someone willing to pop up and go, "Uh, no, actually, you are all the wrong ones for wanting a game to be well designed and if you think about it a shittily designed game is actually better because of a bunch of things that actually have nothing to do with the actual problem while also being things that well-made games can have too" I dunno, probably the same reason that someone else is always ready to yell "no, dammit, it's impossible to have fun unless you play it the exact way I do! Stop having fun the wrong way!" 
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Nov 5, 2017 20:10
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jng2058 posted:I dunno, probably the same reason that someone else is always ready to yell "no, dammit, it's impossible to have fun unless you play it the exact way I do! Stop having fun the wrong way!" Cool! Show me where that happened? edit: Here's the thing: Low stats RP can happen without a system that kicks you in the nuts for it. RP isn't encouraged or discouraged by these mechanics because RP is entirely separate from mechanics in D&D. RP, itself, is not something that any mechanic in D&D is trying to get you to do, even! So when someone uses the same old idiotic "but low stats means you can RP more" defense people roll their eyes and laugh at you. The two things in your defense aren't connected. They never were. Darwinism fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 20:11
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Edit: Eh, na.
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Nov 5, 2017 20:18
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the fact that you can have a paladin with low HP because of unlucky rolls is extremely funny
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Nov 5, 2017 20:21
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My DM made me roll for stats and hit points and class and spells and now I'm playing a third level wizard with 5 int and 3hp, my spells are Friends, Light, Message, Alarm, Identify, Illusory Script, Gust of Wind, and Locate Object. How do I make this a bit less useless?
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Nov 5, 2017 20:30
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My 2 cents on the sickly Paladin idea is that you can just as easily roleplay it while having not poo poo stats. Just chalk up the survivability to being used to getting hurt and sick all the time.AlphaDog posted:My DM made me roll for stats and hit points and class and spells and now I'm playing a third level wizard with 5 int and 3hp, my spells are Friends, Light, Message, Alarm, Identify, Illusory Script, Gust of Wind, and Locate Object. You joke, but a game where you have to randomly roll for EVERYTHING sounds like a fun gimmicky one shot. Add in rolling for level and rolling for wealth! Roll for skills known! Roll for languages!
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Nov 5, 2017 20:30
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tell your gm to kiss your rear end and modify your stats to be in line with a point-buy system and take full hit points for every level so your character isn't hilariously gimped to absolutely no benefit for anyone
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Nov 5, 2017 20:33
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What you numbers are everything types don't understand is that you can roleplay however the gently caress you like regardless of your numbers. Here's the terrible secret though: You can do this even if the numbers do make you mechanically effective. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 20:37
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jng2058 posted:I dunno, probably the same reason that someone else is always ready to yell "no, dammit, it's impossible to have fun unless you play it the exact way I do! Stop having fun the wrong way!" Let me clarify the irony here for you: Their way: a well designed system will put the decision of what they want to play in the hands of the players; if they want to be the Con 9 Pally it's completely up to them Your way: if they become a Con 9 Pally through random chance then they just have to make the best of it, "Don't waste that opportunity" etc Like, your last several posts have been directly telling people how to play - or "suggesting" if you want to be generous - but everyone else wants people to play the way they want!
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Nov 5, 2017 20:46
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10 + CON modifier (minimum 1) HP per level there i fixed your busted-rear end system
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Nov 5, 2017 20:49
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