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Lightning Knight posted:Wasn’t Howard Dean broadly successful as chair? Dean helped contribute to the successes in 2006 and 2008. Ever since, the DNC seems to have departed from the long term 50 state strategy and got more and more invested in the special electoral map tricks that backfired so spectacularly in 2016.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:08
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Neurolimal posted:It's all just, so very tiring. It can be very appealing to look at the vast majority of young minority americans who support leftism and just go "screw the well-off olds, we'll be back in another generation." Yeah, but put yourself into the shoes of a minority who is unfamiliar with the left. Minorities actually have a pretty good excuse for being skeptical towards political movements, and in many cases they're likely unfamiliar with the greater "left vs liberal" debate. So it's not really the same thing as, for example, "minorities feeling exasperated from explaining racism to white people," since white people don't really have the same excuse to be skeptical towards the topic of racism as minorities do towards political groups. I think this is a situation where it makes sense for leftists to usually be patient (unless it's obvious the liberal in question is strongly opposed to leftists to start with, which is unfortunately the case most of the time). Neurolimal posted:Ignored may be a strong word for him, more that the only times he seems to ever get brought up is either in the context of friction with leftists, or his black panther comic book. To be fair, I've also seen this problem with leftists disliking TNC because they've only ever heard of his piece attacking Sanders (and thus assume he's some sort of anti-left centrist) and are unfamiliar with his greater body of work. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 18:08
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Lightning Knight posted:Wasn’t Howard Dean broadly successful as chair? I have no fondness for Dean or a lot of the people he helped elect, and I'm not about to start writing praises for him by virtue of comparisons to other chairs. He did, however, do his job in such a way that it didn't look like he was actively sabotaging his party out of greed or incompetence, much less possibly signing its death warrant. The fact we can only say that about one of these assholes for over a decade is atrocious.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:11
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, but put yourself into the shoes of a minority who is unfamiliar with the left. Minorities actually have a pretty good excuse for being skeptical towards political movements, and in many cases they're likely unfamiliar with the greater "left vs liberal" debate. So it's not really the same thing as, for example, "minorities feeling exasperated from explaining racism to white people," since white people don't really have the same excuse to be skeptical towards the topic of racism as minorities do towards political groups. I think this is a situation where it makes sense for leftists to usually be patient (unless it's obvious the liberal in question is strongly opposed to leftists to start with, which is unfortunately the case most of the time). Not only that, but we currently live in a world where leftists are spilling shitloads of ink and writing thousands of words about how it’s worth it try and peel off Trump voters and engage with them and blah blah blah and comparatively little discussing things like voter suppression and POC. I can see why they resent it. In the broad strokes, we are complicit in taking them for granted electorally. TNC just had a great interview with the Intercept recently where he agreed Obama could’ve been a lot better and discussed how hosed up American history is so accusing him of not being left enough from anyone is patently absurd. (I’m not saying you did, just in reference to your last statement).
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Nov 5, 2017 18:16
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quote:To be fair, I've also seen this problem with leftists disliking TNC because they've only ever heard of his piece attacking Sanders (and thus assume he's some sort of anti-left centrist) and are unfamiliar with his greater body of work. For sure. I didn't intend to say "leftist are perfect and completely informed on social issues", just that we're faaar closer when you remove the lenience centrist/liberal wings get.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:19
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uh what world are you living in exactly where leftists are spilling loads of ink over peeling off trump voters. thats more of a centrist thing! all the leftists I have read seemt to be arguing for the need to appeal to leftist politics and thus get nonvoters voting for us by exciting them and motivating them (and most acknowledge disenfranchisement as a very serious issue that needs to be aggressively tackled with serious reforms and legal challenges) Maybe theres a few but they dont seemt to have any traction in any of my circles except the liberal centrist circles which are strangely big on the idea of converting trumpists GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 18:20
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Quorum posted:Pedantry here, "construed" in this case isn't just interpreting it in the manner of thinking about the document, it also refers to implementation. "Nothing in <x> shall be construed in a manner which would violate <y>" is legal boilerplate which means y supercedes x wherever they conflict. Has the whole agreement leaked? I'm curious if influencing the primary is a defined term.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:20
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Lol has anyone here seriously canvassed in a <40% white area A lot of hypotheticals flying around
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Nov 5, 2017 18:21
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For the record, I do think voter disenfranchisement is extremely important, I feel a lot of leftists are simply either numb to it because of its usage to excuse poor state results, or are wary that it's being used to suggest that the democrats are fine and the issue is entirely out of their hands.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:22
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Potato Salad posted:Lol has anyone here seriously canvassed in a <40% white area what are you actually talking about now
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Nov 5, 2017 18:23
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Lightning Knight posted:spilling shitloads of ink and writing thousands of words about how it’s worth it try and peel off Trump voters and engage with them Care to link some examples?
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Nov 5, 2017 18:24
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Having walked ON FOOT through a minority neighborhood, let me give you internet leftists the real scoop,
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Nov 5, 2017 18:25
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Any updates on the NYC mayor election, or NJ's governor election?
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Nov 5, 2017 18:25
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Lightning Knight posted:Not only that, but we currently live in a world where leftists are spilling shitloads of ink and writing thousands of words about how it’s worth it try and peel off Trump voters and engage with them and blah blah blah and comparatively little discussing things like voter suppression and POC. I can see why they resent it. In the broad strokes, we are complicit in taking them for granted electorally. nah, that's the centrists, as can be seen with northams campaign. leftist policy might pull in some trump voters, but i think it will more bring disenchanted and jaded voters back into the party
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Nov 5, 2017 18:26
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Lightning Knight posted:Not only that, but we currently live in a world where leftists are spilling shitloads of ink and writing thousands of words about how it’s worth it try and peel off Trump voters and engage with them and blah blah blah and comparatively little discussing things like voter suppression and POC. I can see why they resent it. In the broad strokes, we are complicit in taking them for granted electorally. Which leftists? Who, specifically, are the leftists who are talking about peeling off Trump voters and not about voter suppression?
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Nov 5, 2017 18:27
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PhazonLink posted:Any updates on the NYC mayor election, or NJ's governor election? De Blasio is walking his way to another mayoral term. People aren't really happy about him, but he's not in danger.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:27
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Brony Car posted:Is Sunday not a good day to be doing phone banking? I'm working through a virtual phone bank and I'm not getting any answers. Maybe I should just set aside some time for early tomorrow evening? Phone banking always has dismal results because the average person doesn't pick up the phone if it's some rando calling. I think back when I did it for Obama in 08 I would get like 5 answers for every 100 calls I made and people thought that was pretty good. Keep working at it. Potato Salad posted:Lol has anyone here seriously canvassed in a <40% white area Yes. I just did it yesterday. It was mostly hispanic but I talked to 0 white people and a bunch of hispanic/black people. axeil fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 18:28
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GlyphGryph posted:uh what world are you living in exactly where leftists are spilling loads of ink over peeling off trump voters. You haven’t encountered the broad argument that “we can appeal to Trump voters who aren’t (as) racist by touting economic leftism and enticing them with material improvement of their lives?” https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/10/should-we-talk-to-white-supremacists That’s the most recent example I can think of. Notably I don’t think this is a bad article, necessarily. But she even touches briefly on my point here. quote:People who empathize with these voters’ legitimate economic concerns are accused of caring more about Trump voters than about other groups perceived to be more deserving of empathy. And it’s like, well, I’m not the one who thought it was Very Important to write an article about talking to white suoremacists and not on how we can better engage with minority communities they hurt, ma’am.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:28
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Brony Car posted:De Blasio is walking his way to another mayoral term. People aren't really happy about him, but he's not in danger. You mean the white people/pig fuckers and their feefees?
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Nov 5, 2017 18:29
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GlyphGryph posted:uh what world are you living in exactly where leftists are spilling loads of ink over peeling off trump voters. Since the election, there's a strain of thought I've seen among some leftists that at least some Trump voters were taken in by his left-ish rhetoric and talking points. He frequently criticized the moneyed interests that ruled politics, spoke about blue collar jobs, and railed against globalization trends that lead to offshoring. These are generally leftist points, and arguably anyone taken in by that could perhaps be peeled away by someone who talked about such things and meant it. So yeah, this does actually happen, even if it's not as common compared to centrists trying to peel off Trump voters via bipartisanship, respectability, etc. It's also not the best tactic, mind you, compared to focusing on using leftist politics to motivate potential voters who tend to stay at home out of a defeated kind of apathy.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:29
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PhazonLink posted:You mean the white people/pig fuckers and their feefees? Blasio isn't exactly a squeaky clean person, even if we like that he made cops mad enough to prove how ineffectual they are.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:31
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Lightning Knight posted:You haven’t encountered the broad argument that “we can appeal to Trump voters who aren’t (as) racist by touting economic leftism and enticing them with material improvement of their lives?” but leftists don't push economic leftism just because they think it will attract trump voters. that's just a happy side-effect of leftist policy (if it bears out). they do it because they think it's the right direction for the country. try implies extra effort exerted beyond what we'd normally push for, and i don't think leftists are pushing for peeling off trump voters except in the vein of "some might come over cause of our policies help them too"
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Nov 5, 2017 18:32
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Lightning Knight posted:https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/10/should-we-talk-to-white-supremacists This kind of thinking is increasingly dangerous the more we see the capacity of state media to fabricate an alternative, immutable reality for the population caught in its thrall.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:33
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Yeah, at least for my post, I'm not saying "we should go out and convert Trump voters', just that by pushing fiscal leftism we will end up peeling some even without specifically pandering to them. Keep in mind that before Trump and his lying, most of the R base was accusing every well-off rep suit of being a RINO. They're absolutely feeling the same class disconnect that we are. We absolutely should be working to help urban voters as well, of course.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:33
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joepinetree posted:So Keith Ellison was absolutely right to say that it is impossible to know how things would have turned out without that memo (a statement that got him booed by the Pod Save America crowd). I was at this event so I wanted to give my thoughts on it. I think people booed because he started off saying "it wasn't rigged, but it wasn't fair" and that immediately made people think "here we go again with the Eternal Debate", but after hearing what he specifically had to say... He was right. Even if it didn't affect the outcome it made things seem unfair and there's no real telling what kind of impact it could've had since we can't exactly re-do the 2016 primary without all this DNC-shenanigans stuff. It's why I'm glad he said he and Tom Perez are doing what they can to make the DNC a more transparent organization. At the same time I think it's important to realize that the DNC isn't that important and making this our hill to die on is a really bad use of our resources. 2016 is over and any of the particular intricacies of 2016 like this agreement won't come up again in 2020. Fight on ideology. Fight on candidates. Fight on not taking voters for granted. Those are the things that are going to matter. I'd much rather have a debate about what the Party's healthcare and minimum wage platforms should be going forward than have another proxy Hillary-Bernie fight that won't change any minds and is just going to make people feel further and further apart and more and more embittered. Someone at the event asked a really good question about Medicare Advantage and noted it's the most popular single healthcare program in the US. They used that as a segue to talk about the public option versus immediately going Medicare for all. That I think is a useful conversation, not so much arguing about whether the primary was or wasn't rigged. axeil fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 18:36
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Potato Salad posted:This is history rewriting horseshit. Do better. Prove that th establishment was friends to the Civil Rights movement.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:36
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any "leftist" who says we should sacrifice leftist policy or give in to racism to appeal to trump voters is not an actual leftist. if trump voters vote for leftists cause they like welfare, and social security, and medicare for all, and not letting police murder black people bothers them less than they want medicare for all, great if trump voters don't want to vote for the left because we want sanctuary cities and immigration reform, well we shouldn't bother with them
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Nov 5, 2017 18:36
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axeil posted:2016 is over and any of the particular intricacies of 2016 like this agreement won't come up again in 2020. we don't know that. i'd like to believe it's true, but a look at the 2017 special elections, and how resources were allocated during them, says that this problem will still be a problem in 2020.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:38
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Condiv posted:but leftists don't push economic leftism just because they think it will attract trump voters. that's just a happy side-effect of leftist policy (if it bears out). they do it because they think it's the right direction for the country. I agree, but currently the conversation tends to be dominated by discussion of Trump voters, and it leads to a perception that everyone is much more interested in them than all the marginalized communities who define much of the Democratic base. We’re all still living in 2016, but in retrospect. quote:if trump voters don't want to vote for the left because we want sanctuary cities and immigration reform, well we shouldn't bother with them  Office Pig posted:This kind of thinking is increasingly dangerous the more we see the capacity of state media to fabricate an alternative, immutable reality for the population caught in its thrall. I think it’s a worthwhile question to ask on it’s own merits, but it’s not a discussion happening in a vacuum. I also don’t like her criticism of a POC talking to a white supremacist on how the POC didn’t handle it well enough, it didn’t sound good and there were plenty of better examples to use that wouldn’t sound like victim blaming no matter how hard she tried for it not to.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:40
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Condiv posted:we don't know that. i'd like to believe it's true, but a look at the 2017 special elections, and how resources were allocated during them, says that this problem will still be a problem in 2020. Agreed. That's why I wanted Ellison as chair even though I'm a dirty, dirty Centrist I'm mostly just trusting him that when he promised the Pod Save America audience he wouldn't allow for agreements like this again that he meant it.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:41
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axeil posted:Agreed. That's why I wanted Ellison as chair even though I'm a dirty, dirty Centrist well, if we get ellison as chair i'd believe a lot more. currently we got empty suit perez in there instead and i don't trust him cause he's gone back on a ton of his election promises already (50 state strategy??)
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Nov 5, 2017 18:46
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https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/926822382882324481 so glad we missed our chance to jettison this motherfucker by electing perez
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Nov 5, 2017 19:01
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Raskolnikov38 posted:https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/926822382882324481 Some claim mothers are too old for him.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:12
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https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/paradise-papers Updated the OP, looks like Kushner has ties to Russian money funding twitter. RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 19:17
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https://twitter.com/guardian/status/927212568707510272 Hahaha, this is... this is certainly one way to interpret the recent power grab. Yes.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:21
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Office Pig posted:https://twitter.com/guardian/status/927212568707510272 one time somebody on twitter (adam h johnson?) collated like a dozen of these kinds of articles written over a decade, in which reform in SA is constantly juuuuust around the corner
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Nov 5, 2017 19:36
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I think half of them are by David Ignatius.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:41
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axeil posted:
But the problem is that those platform issues--rather, elected Dems' stances on those issues--have turned into proxy Hillary-Bernie fights. Once Hillary declared that single-payer will never, ever happen, most elected Dems felt justified in dropping their circa-2010 trope that "the ACA is the first step toward single-payer" and joining the fight against it (see, eg, CO elected Dems' trashing of the ballot initiative last year). eta: Since last week, I've seen tons of Hillary supporters saying that Elizabeth Warren is dead to them now, bc she agreed that the DNC needs serious reform. I've said in the suck zone that Warren was the one potential 2020 candidate who could unite both factions of Dems, but after watching the reaction to her remarks I now seriously doubt that. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 20:54
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Quorum posted:So there's a few mixed messages here. This Washington Post article is a good read, as is this Politico one. The campaign has been pretty regular with touching base with black community organizations (as you reference with the HBCU and church visits, though the WaPo article suggests it's more than just a few), but there are other organizations worried it's not enough. Something some have wished for is more focus on how Fairfax would be the first black elected statewide official since Wilder, but other voters say they'd be irritated if his race got more billing than his qualifications. One of the issues is the statue thing; polls really aren't the take-them-down side, with black voters in the minority position but generally and not at all surprisingly very passionate about it, and Northam's sort of middle-of-the-road position satisfies them but doesn't exactly light a fire. Which, despite all of the Very Online people talking about how he's a mega racist, is the actual thing he's mostly guilty of. ralph northam's problem is he didn't do a step show at the norfolk state homecoming
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Nov 5, 2017 21:28
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Obama will be remembered as one of the most corrupt Presidents, like Grant. His patronage system, as seen by the DNC, Clinton Foundation access to the State Department, and things like Soylandro are all the history books will talk about in order to keep them appealing to the Texas educational market.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:42
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