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So I was inspired to try playing ADOM as a result of reading this thread and I've been playing it since Friday. I've only gotten to level 12 but I think...I think I love it. It's extremely janky, but, like, I really like certain types of jank, so instead of being unbearable it's great! I haven't gotten anything past the early game though, so maybe it gets really bad later. It kinda reminds me of Elona, except way more focused. I wonder if the Elona guy took inspiration from it?
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Nov 5, 2017 20:52
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:If you look at most bullet hell games, the vast majority of enemies die in 1 hit. They exist to distract you from the more beefy enemies, of which there's generally 1 or maybe 2 at a time that create more complex patterns for you to dodge. Then the bosses are bullet sponges and get off a dozen or more attacks. Gungeon's not designed under those pretenses at all, is the thing. There's really no "chaff" because every enemy requires more attention than one well-placed shot, and they're all complex enough that they can get a hit or two in on you if you don't get them under control. The idea isn't to clear the board and then focus on the big threats, it's to manage all significant threats at once. That's also something that makes me prefer Gungeon over Nuclear Throne, so while I appreciate that not everyone cares for that pacing I'm very glad it is what it is instead of trying too hard to copy something else.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:05
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MORE TAXES WHEN posted:So I was inspired to try playing ADOM as a result of reading this thread and I've been playing it since Friday. I've only gotten to level 12 but I think...I think I love it. Elona dude was 100% super inspired by ADOM. All the herb names, puppy cave, the magic system (iirc), the pressure of a globally corrupting thing, the overworld and how seven-league boots just make you faster than god on it are all things I can think of off the top of my head that were clear influences. It's pretty cool seeing what's basically an insane variant of a closed source game, but with a lot more Crazy added.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:13
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pumpinglemma posted:There was a bug where using the starting weapon to clear a room made ammo drops a lot less likely. So specifically the players who were predisposed to use an unfun weapon because of worries about ammo conservation had that tendency reinforced. Kind of. Whenever you clear a room, you had a chance of an item drop - this could be pretty much anything - a heart, ammo, a key, bonus casings, etc. The chance of this goes up every time you don't get this item drop and resets to the base chance again whenever the item drop actually happens.In addition to the regular item drop, every time you clear a room there's a chance for a separate ammo drop. This means that it's possible to clear a room and receive two ammo drops as a reward - one from the normal item reward and one from the ammo-specific drop reward. On release, however, if you had any gun with infinite ammo equipped the ammo-specific drop simply would not happen. In practice, what this meant was that if you ran out of ammo for your guns and used your starter weapon, or made a happen of finishing rooms with your starter weapon (to conserve ammo), a majority of your ammo drops just wouldn't even happen. Later on they changed the way the ammo drop chance was calculated to not care about whether or not your currently equipped weapon had infinite ammo, so it's significantly better than it used to be, but at the time it was an incredibly valid complaint because at no point was the ammo drop behavior ever actually communicated to the player until after it was changed.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:15
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Gungeon is pretty fun but the early game inconsistency can be a massive drag. There's a few runs where poor luck means you're using a starter gun well into the 2nd floor as all your drops are items or other useless things. My real pet peeve is the max life bonus. Often I feel like if I take a hit from the 1st boss you may as well start over as it can be a massive difference, especially when max life drops are so rare. Dunno what a better alternative to it would be though, rewarding perfect runs is good but it feels bad when you don't get it. Black August posted:I’m doin’ ok. Ditched into the background noise from TG once SA started to decline. Just keeping on and loafing in my treehouse in irc with Muk and Aeo. Them, me, No Control and Fraction have been running ADOM 3 for the last 5 years, and it’s about to end in a year. Finally caught the big one. oh man is this the same ADOM game I read years back and bought an account to PM you about? Always hoped it'd actually have an ending one day.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:45
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Razakai posted:My real pet peeve is the max life bonus. Often I feel like if I take a hit from the 1st boss you may as well start over as it can be a massive difference, especially when max life drops are so rare. Dunno what a better alternative to it would be though, rewarding perfect runs is good but it feels bad when you don't get it. Isaac rewards perfect runs by giving you devil rooms, which let you trade life for (usually) offense. Better offense makes it easier to get perfect runs, of course, but it also narrows your margin of error. It's a nice self-balancing mechanism where you're allowed to bite off more than you can chew, but only so long as you continue to be able to play effectively. I won't claim that Isaac is perfect in this regard, but it feels like a better reward for perfect play than "congrats, now you're allowed to make more mistakes" is.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:50
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I played some Rogue Empire over the weekend: https://portal-entertainment.itch.io/rogue-empire Lots of potential, pretty tiles, dead simple gameplay in its current state. If you are the kind of goon who throws 8 bucks at a roguelike experiment because you can and you want to support the genre, please do so because your feedback will help. If you are more picky with your resources, this game isn't ready yet. It plays like a passion project, but doesn't have much (currently!) that we haven't seen before. You don't gain any new gameplay abilities as you level, but you are encouraged to try and research spells from scrolls, books, and wands. There are a few Because Roguelikes features, such as locked doors at random that have no meaningful content behind them but may also block progression entirely, unless you (K)ick them repeatedly which damages you each time. Check, check, and check. There's potential in the magic system where not only do you have a mana pool but also Arcane Weave, which goes down by one when you cast a spell, stays down by X if you buff yourself, and recovers very quickly if you don't cast for a couple of rounds. Cool in theory, but I played a Tree Mage and my first attack, Water Bolt, was the only attack I used for nine levels. I killed 90% of the monsters I saw with hot streams of piss until I came across a Water Elemental who could cast it harder than I could. RIP. I got a Summon Monster spell I used a handful of times but each cast of Summon Monster reduced my max mana, which was a huge turn off. Leveling up gives you a choice of options drawn at random, sometimes those choices are temporary and fleeting, like some gold or healing potions. Never choose money over power. I'mma play it a little more, and then wait for further content patches. The game has potential and I hope the dude keeps plugging away at it. Here's the end of my run, a handful of minutes from death, but you can scroll around the previous two hours for other snippets of game. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/187328746?t=2h38m0s
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Nov 5, 2017 22:55
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Someone mentioned IVAN so ive been playing it again and it continues to be super great. They Increased the quality of the item drops early game since i last played which is insidious.
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Nov 5, 2017 23:14
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madjackmcmad posted:I played some Rogue Empire over the weekend: Huh, they've got a patreon where you can pay 3$ a month and if you do that for three months you can get the full game on release. Hmmmmmmm how much do I want to support this...
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Nov 5, 2017 23:42
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 At first glance this seems really lovely. I'm assuming "Soul Essence" is what you use for progression? This is like... concealed time-shifted micro-transaction. Yes it's sorta honest in that the purpose of Patreon isn't "you buy games" but "you're supporting creators", but it feels slimy to put that up there as a reward.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:37
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Captain Foo posted:Mirrors my story, basically, I'm barely around though I have been running some successful and some failed Apocalypse World games, and am mostly in 219 and Twitter these days. I'm done with roleplaying after ADOM 3 ends. I want to run a minor Metroid one-shot for fun after that, but it'd be a quick deal. No more grand year spanning campaigns for me. I'm glad you're doing well. I still wonder what happened to all the 2002-2006 TG alumni. Feels like a different life and timeline entirely these days. And yeah, I turned ADOM into a setting for GURPS, and tried to run two games in it to no real success before hitting it on the third try. I really liked ADOM as a roguelike because it felt very different from all the others, and had style choices and idea that I genuinely do like. Classes feel like CLASSES, with their own powers and focus, however sloppily and unbalanced it was implemented. There's weird monsters like Molochs, the whole system of the world map and racing against time, hidden various endings (with way too much RNG and esoteria attached to them), the board is always one screen large to make exploration quick and snappy, and you can play weird race/class combos like Troll Wizards and still find them viable. Sadly, Biskup is like a bad GM who only sees immense adversity as a virtue in design, which leaves you finding diamond dust in all the ugly rear end soot he's shat all over the place. ADOM is just a big loving ugly stupid mess of a bad game, but it has HOOKS in it if you play it long enough. It's mostly the small poo poo. Massive equipment destruction is boring. Water murders you better than an orc ever could, somehow, and automatically magic-rusts your stuff. Many quests feel shallow, poorly explained, and have gotchas in them that you can't react to or prepare for without being psychic. You don't feel like you grow and learn so much as just smash through wall after wall as your head bleeds worse each time. But poo poo! Conquering the Tower of Eternal Flames, a really cool looking level, was a huge rush. Seeing the Casino, emptying Darkforge, the first time you access Ultra content and thread the needle, robbing the water dragon cave, saving the puppy (I am an IDIOT WHO ALWAYS DOES THE PUPPY QUEST FIRST because if you can't save the puppy, you're worthless as a hero ((and if you do beat the cave you're goddamn set to have a chance against the early game)), summoning the Emperor Moloch, the game just has a strange flavor and vibrancy to it other roguelikes didn't get me with. ADOM feels alive and personal, with Biskup's desire to be a petty piece of dumb gently caress about it. It's a game you want to spite-win.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:40
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Razakai posted:oh man is this the same ADOM game I read years back and bought an account to PM you about? Always hoped it'd actually have an ending one day. Oh, yeah. That's me. We're on #3 now. It's funny because the actual ADOM content is all back-end stuff and mechanics and references by now. To answer you, this 3rd try is already tied into the 1st and 2nd games and is wrapping them up and into it. One player is playing his original character from the 1st one even. So it's all getting a hell of an ending on par with ADOM's ultras themselves, which I didn't really intend on this go but I'm very happy with it. I kind of want to play and beat current ADOM one more time before this game ends for good luck and a final gently caress You. I ultra's a human farmer once, I'll drat well do it again. Though I wish it was viable to get a redemptive Chaos Knight UNE.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:42
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Isaac rewards perfect runs by giving you devil rooms, which let you trade life for (usually) offense. Better offense makes it easier to get perfect runs, of course, but it also narrows your margin of error. It's a nice self-balancing mechanism where you're allowed to bite off more than you can chew, but only so long as you continue to be able to play effectively. I'm actually fine with the implementation of devil rooms in Isaac. Not getting a devil room isn't a punishment for being bad, since if you're bad enough that you can't snag at least a couple early devil rooms, you probably haven't gotten ten Mom's Heart kills yet so you haven't unlocked anything hard enough to really require the devil room items in the first place. Also, even if you're good, you still have to sacrifice hearts to take them, so it's not like it's a free gift for being good, it's still a risk/reward choice. eta: Also there are several ways to improve your odds of getting devil rooms, so it's not like one errant shot from the boss because you didn't pay attention is the nail in the coffin. Getting hit and missing a heart upgrade in Gungeon is missing out on an upgrade that a bad player desperately needs and a good player doesn't, it's about the most backwards implementation possible.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:02
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Dancer posted:
Soul Essence are points earned between plays. When your run ends, you've gathered up X soul essence and then you can spend it on things that make your next hero stronger. It's a pretty straightforward metaprogression system. In this case, if you sub to the game (which is effectively what Patreon is here) you get increased resource generation. In genres like MMOs that's so common no one bats an eye. The roguelike audience is different. This sounds like I'm being snarky but I'm not: there are vocal members of the RL audience who get really angry at the thought that someone else playing a single player game has a different experience because they paid more money. That why my only piece of dmans DLC is completely free of any sort of bonuses, enhancements, or new gear. It just makes you die more. That said, it's loving difficult work making ends meet selling people hours of concentration and focus followed by intense frustration and anger. If the guy can get an extra tank of gas money every month out of a Patreon, he should do it.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:09
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madjackmcmad posted:The roguelike audience is different. This sounds like I'm being snarky but I'm not: there are vocal members of the RL audience who get really angry at the thought that someone else playing a single player game has a different experience because they paid more money. What I really mean is, do those people being loud and angry all over the internet have actual, measurable financial impact?
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Nov 6, 2017 01:13
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DACK FAYDEN posted:This is a flippant, totally unconsidered response: gently caress those people. Does it have a measurable impact? Word of mouth among RL lovers is important to me, especially three years in. I'm already down to 89% rating on Steam, a handful of negative reviews would tank it even further. That's the main metric Steam uses to decide who gets to see your game. I don't bow and scrape before people to keep my ratings up, but I keep it in mind.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:18
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There's a kind of meritocratic intensity to the community for Nethack / ADOM / Crawl / etc, a certain pride in being the kind of person for whom "you could play this game for years before you beat it once" is a positive. Anything that gives you an advantage other than skill or luck in that context is suspect, and anything that gives you an advantage silently, where you can't see it prominently displayed on someone's YAAP, is unacceptable. If you can buy a win it devalues the significance of that accomplishment for everyone else who's done it. That said, in this particular case it's a stupid thing to get upset about because the minute your game has metaprogression you've lost any claim to that kind of attitude anyways. Buying something with money that you could already buy with sheer time doesn't really make it any worse. 
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Nov 6, 2017 01:21
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note also that i leave ToME out of this classification because, much as I enjoy the gameplay, ToME has had metaprogression and donor-only features with a larger impact than that for years, it's just cleverly obscured by the fact that you have to be a certain baseline threshold of good to take advantage of it
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Nov 6, 2017 01:27
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madjackmcmad posted:But what if these are otherwise good cool fans who are supportive and great to have on your side? Everyone's got weirdo ticks. There is a point where it might be too much -- I've given it a lot of thought, and I haven't stopped. Dancer, quoted above, thought the practice of subscribing for increased resource generation was slimy. I don't agree, but I also don't think it's a super outlandish position from Planet Wrong. Agreed: in a niche community, which is what roguelikes are, word of mouth IS your primary marketing force. Anything that damages your marketing damages your sales damages the dev's financial gain from making one of these things.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:36
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Also madjack I'm sorry but I can't leave you another review for Dmans. Same to Unormal and Hand of Luke and the Deathstate guy and so on. I do my part with the metrics, but I don't have fifty friends I can ask to review the game as well.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:36
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In hindsight, I rushed forming my opinion there. First of all, even when I typed that I didn't mean to imply that the author is Bad and Uncool for doing that. I get that he's an indie game dev in a world where that's hard, and by being on Patreon he's explicitly saying "you're supporting me". Secondly, I am myself strongly of the opinion that you can play your single player game however the gently caress you want. I just got tickled the wrong way by the fact that it's advertised the way it is. I still consider it ever so slightly... "slimy" (simply for lack of a better word) but I would be crazy to think less of the game or its players for it.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:38
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Dancer posted:In hindsight, I rushed forming my opinion there. First of all, even when I typed that I didn't mean to imply that the author is Bad and Uncool for doing that. I get that he's an indie game dev in a world where that's hard, and by being on Patreon he's explicitly saying "you're supporting me". Too late, you're using wizard mode in nethack and that means you're the SCUM OF THE EARTH e: Can you IMAGINE Nethack devs charging five bucks for wizard mode e2: oh my god quote:The legitimacy of most of the actions in this section is unclear and often subject of some controversy. Most people would not refer to them as "cheating", but rather as "degenerate behavior" even if not approving of them.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:39
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The best way I've seen of doing metaprogression is the way that Necrodancer and 20XX do it -- there's a specific play mode that gives you your cool metaprogression unlocks and starting buffs, and a separate playmode where you don't have to unlock anything but you don't get any buffs either. You can use the first mode to learn the game, or hell, play that way as long as you feel like it. Or you can dive right into the second mode and play the game as if it has no metaprogression at all.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:42
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According to that wiki article a non-trivial amount of people consider taking notes out of game as cheating. Nethack!
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Nov 6, 2017 01:44
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:Elona dude was 100% super inspired by ADOM. All the herb names, puppy cave, the magic system (iirc), the pressure of a globally corrupting thing, the overworld and how seven-league boots just make you faster than god on it are all things I can think of off the top of my head that were clear influences. It's pretty cool seeing what's basically an insane variant of a closed source game, but with a lot more Crazy added. Playing adom was what made me want to play elona, so I could play a character in a game intended for forever rather than just what feels like forever Adom was the first time I died in a rl and went "man gently caress doing all that again"
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Nov 6, 2017 01:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:The best way I've seen of doing metaprogression is the way that Necrodancer and 20XX do it -- there's a specific play mode that gives you your cool metaprogression unlocks and starting buffs, and a separate playmode where you don't have to unlock anything but you don't get any buffs either. You can use the first mode to learn the game, or hell, play that way as long as you feel like it. Or you can dive right into the second mode and play the game as if it has no metaprogression at all. Yeah but just lol if you play Necrodancer any other way than All Zones Mode. After practicing zone 4 and the Necrodancer fight a zillion times each because they're so much harder than everything else, including the DLC content.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:45
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Dancer posted:I still consider it ever so slightly... "slimy" (simply for lack of a better word) but I would be crazy to think less of the game or its players for it. Tuxedo Catfish posted:There's a kind of meritocratic intensity to the community for Nethack / ADOM / Crawl / etc, a certain pride in being the kind of person for whom "you could play this game for years before you beat it once" is a positive. Anything that gives you an advantage other than skill or luck in that context is suspect, and anything that gives you an advantage silently, where you can't see it prominently displayed on someone's YAAP, is unacceptable. If you can buy a win it devalues the significance of that accomplishment for everyone else who's done it.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:45
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madjackmcmad posted:Wins on leaderboards that are backed by real money should be in their own category, or at least starred. I'm not sure if there's currently a live example of what you're describing but there probably is. Beating a game on I Am Death Incinerator difficulty is an accomplishment that is undiminished by someone else beating it on Please Don't Hurt Me, but since accomplishment value is subjective, some players disagree. Those are the people who would be angry with me if I sold Proof and Potion Panoply Packs on the Steam Store for a buck. When you put it as plainly as that, it's easier for me to formulate: As someone not intimately familiar with the exact inner workings of the game, the moment I see that I will automatically wonder if maybe your design wasn't compromised (e.g. you made it extra grindy and tedious, and maybe those items are OP to make the purchase extra attractive) by this extra profit motive. It won't probably stop me from enjoying the game if I started and realized that it's fun, but it will at the very least make it slightly less likely for me to get started in the first place.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:50
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RyokoTK posted:Yeah but just lol if you play Necrodancer any other way than All Zones Mode. It's kind of weird that Necrodancer doesn't have an All Zones Mode that uses the unlocks. It's a pretty obvious omission, so I assume they did it for some reason.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:51
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Like, I'm not saying your game would automatically be Gacha level microtransaction hell, but the whole thing lies on a spectrum, and the existence of those microtransactions would shift my perception of your game towards the lovely end of that spectrum.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:53
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For me, I wouldn't want increased resource generation because that basically feels like part of the game has already been played for me. I want a difficult game that's properly balanced around a specific level of resource generation. I don't want what more or less amounts to a cheat code.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:54
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Dancer posted:Like, I'm not saying your game would automatically be Gacha level microtransaction hell, but the whole thing lies on a spectrum, and the existence of those microtransactions would shift my perception of your game towards the lovely end of that spectrum. On its own, microtransations are fine if they're optional. Yeah, sure, support the dev. I'm cool with that! The trouble is, as per usual, the market has seized upon that concept and gone to town with it in all kinds of scummy ways, with the latest culmination being that you literally watch other players in CoD WWII open lootboxes that fall from the sky, which is gross on multiple levels.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:55
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Games as a Service is gaining major traction because it makes an absurd amount of money. There isn't anything stopping the Nethack devs from making you pay for wizard mode beside their own morality and committal to "the art". It really is a question of how much of the game is an expression of art versus it as a vehicle to make money. Lots of devs (or in most cases publishers, I suspect) are just starting to figure out what players are willing to pay for.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's kind of weird that Necrodancer doesn't have an All Zones Mode that uses the unlocks. It's a pretty obvious omission, so I assume they did it for some reason. Because the idea of All Zones Mode is that it's more about collecting items and snowballing your way to victory rather than having a bunch of hearts and a free gold multiplier off the bat and buying yourself better starting gear, I think. drat near any run I've had that made it to zone 4 in all zones has made it past zone 4 since by that point I usually have awesome armor and gear, and dammit I earned it.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:12
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RyokoTK posted:Because the idea of All Zones Mode is that it's more about collecting items and snowballing your way to victory rather than having a bunch of hearts and a free gold multiplier off the bat and buying yourself better starting gear, I think. Sure, but All Zones Mode is also intimidating for newbie players because they don't start with five hearts and whatever gear the NPCs let you buy. I'm just saying that it's completely conceivable to have an All Zones Mode that starts you with that power and then lets you ramp to even more absurd levels if/when you make it to the late game.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:17
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I would actually go further than Dancer: even a well-designed difficult roguelike will at least occasionally leave players angry and shouting bullshit, because that's always easier than admitting you're bad. (And I completely include myself in that statement.) If the game had microtransactions, I don't think I could at all distinguish that sort of temporary rage from the slimy sort of sales tactics where you can't really progress without paying. So it's not even a question of whether the microtransactions are Actually Bad, in the sense of warping the game's balance around them - they inevitably taint the feel of the game just by existing. Donator-only classes are a cool and good form of monetization, though.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:18
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If you want an easy mode in Necrodancer, just play Bard.  Newbies should absolutely play the game zone by zone, All Zones is incredibly difficult and I think there's an expectation of comfort with the game before you jump into it. I think it exists to be the traditional roguelike mode. I guess there isn't a reason why they couldn't or shouldn't let you start All Zones with six hearts and call it easy mode, except for the same reason why you can't start with a super shotgun in DoomRL: gaining power and defining your run is a big part of what makes it fun.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:19
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Dancer posted:When you put it as plainly as that, it's easier for me to formulate: As someone not intimately familiar with the exact inner workings of the game, the moment I see that I will automatically wonder if maybe your design wasn't compromised (e.g. you made it extra grindy and tedious, and maybe those items are OP to make the purchase extra attractive) by this extra profit motive. It won't probably stop me from enjoying the game if I started and realized that it's fun, but it will at the very least make it slightly less likely for me to get started in the first place. If someone is bad at roguelikes but enjoys them, only has two hours a week to play, and just wants to get strong without having to Git Gud, they also likely are willing to pay a couple bucks to smooth the process of leveling and have enough pots and supplies that they should never die (even though they will, lol). My biggest problem with doing this in my own game is that offering a player a button that makes the game easier changes everything about how the game feels to a committed player. Smuggo games journalists say things like "Just don't push the button then, who cares?" but that's because they push the button with their raging smug-chode as soon as they are able and don't give a skinny dump about the games they play. Cheating is a hymen that never grows back, the first time you realized you could just IDKFA yourself all the guns in Doom, everything got less scary.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:20
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I love watching smart devs discuss this kind of thing.  They have a perspective on the issue that the average consumer wouldn't consider. Every time I read Dungeonmans guy explain his position articulately and accurately, I feel somehow more validated about purchasing his game at full price. To be honest I would probably never have bought Dungeonmans (or Qud. Or Cogmind.) if I hadn't read this thread. They just aren't typically games that show up on my radar. Tangledeep I probably would have gotten without reading the thread though, mostly because I am sucker for 16-bit JRPG nostalgia.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:58
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I love watching smart devs discuss this kind of thing. I might have gotten Caves of Qud, and I definitely would have gotten Cogmind when it dropped on Steam, but honestly, without this thread I'd still be back at the "I enjoyed Nethack when I was a kid" stage without ever having installed DoomRL or ToME4 or Brogue or... Basically this thread was my intro to roguelikes and I appreciate it a lot.  e: Also, looking back - this place has also been where I've cut my teeth on posting and learning to participate instead of lurk. You guys are cool, chill, and make great points.
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Nov 6, 2017 03:01
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