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Ashcans posted:You just asked if you could have a playable WWII game without people playing nazis, not if you could play one without people playing a group that committed gross atrocities  maybe you should do a little more reading up on what is also known as the rape of ethiopia if you dont think gross atrocities were committed during it
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Nov 4, 2017 08:37
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:
I was going to say the Italians used chemical weapons on civilians and the Red Cross numerous times. Then set up extermination camps after the war was over.
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Nov 4, 2017 14:13
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:
I am not sure that you can find a theatre in WWII where people weren't doing some terrible stuff.
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Nov 4, 2017 14:44
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Basically all war is filled with atrocity, it’s just a matter of whether the grog across the table from you gets an erection thinking about it or not.
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Nov 4, 2017 14:47
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Shadin posted:Basically all war is filled with atrocity, it’s just a matter of whether the grog across the table from you gets an erection thinking about it or not. This a thousand times. At the end of the day it's a hobby that makes light of the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions of people across history and even when you dress it up as elves versus demons, it's still grounded in the reality that war, warfare, and mass death are inseparable from the overall human experience.
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Nov 4, 2017 15:15
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Fortunately, we chose to portray the fighting part, and not the raping-civvies-and-mistreating-pows part. Rolling to see if some shithead Guardsman tried to grope a Sister Hospitalier after the battle is one of the few ways to make playing hams worse.
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Nov 4, 2017 20:21
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Imperial-guard-and-eldar-prisoner.jpg I'm going to write a Necromunda mod where the gangs resolve their differences through mediation and establish joint ventures.
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Nov 5, 2017 00:13
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Ashcans posted:I'm going to write a Necromunda mod where the gangs resolve their differences through mediation and establish joint ventures. I would play the hell out of this. Necromunda: Adeptus Advocatorum
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Nov 5, 2017 01:40
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Ashcans posted:Imperial-guard-and-eldar-prisoner.jpg Arbite Wright
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Nov 5, 2017 13:38
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berzerkmonkey posted:40 years older! This is awesome and I really hope it happens. The pricing difference between currencies is absolutely bizarre, though. Main box is $125 US, $150 AU, so 20% more expensive. The crew boxes however go from $40 US to $70 AU, a 75% increase. Why is drat currency conversion not consistent?
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Nov 5, 2017 15:37
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Wazzu posted:The pricing difference between currencies is absolutely bizarre, though. Main box is $125 US, $150 AU, so 20% more expensive. The crew boxes however go from $40 US to $70 AU, a 75% increase. I’ve never understood Australian prices, other than maybe Games Workshop hates Australia.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:42
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Australia is insane. I hear even the vidja is expensive there.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:48
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Some more news about Necromunda? It's probably nothing new that they're pulling a Deathzone on us, but quote:So i guess necromunda is not in the necromunda box ^^
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Nov 6, 2017 09:16
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At least with Blood Bowl the rules for the old game have been around awhile in various formats and the new game is basically the same. Would it be so impossible for them to just release a combined book with the special dice you'll need?
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Nov 6, 2017 10:53
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JcDent posted:Some more news about Necromunda? Yeah, this has been known for some time. Atlas Hugged posted:At least with Blood Bowl the rules for the old game have been around awhile in various formats and the new game is basically the same. Would it be so impossible for them to just release a combined book with the special dice you'll need? However, there is absolutely no reason BB shouldn't have come with league rules right out of the box.
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Nov 6, 2017 15:37
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berzerkmonkey posted:Yeah, this has been known for some time. Presumably the gang wars supplement is worth 30 bucks and wasn't worth raising the boxed set price. If you're totally new, you maybe don't want to spend the extra money on the box set to learn that in order to use these fancy new rules you also need 200 bucks worth of 3D terrain. Having it self-contained makes it more approachable, and as someone new to Necromunda I'm happy to give zone mortalis a go before moving on to the 3D stuff.
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Nov 6, 2017 15:56
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The idea generally is that they're two distinct rulesets with some shared mechanics. The boardgame version's designed to be played quickly and is more suited for casual/pick-up games, while Gang War is more along the lines of old Necromunda and designed for campaigns (though from what I've heard the book encourages the opening stages of a campaign to be played using the boardgame rules, the represent fresh gangs crawling their way out of the sewers and underways of the Underhive). So yeah, unlike Deathzone this is more a move to keep the box self-contained.
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Nov 6, 2017 17:58
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Yeah, they wanted it to be two games, basically. Just like Blood Bowl, which is why Deathzone wasn't in that box, either. You can take Necromunda off the shelf and play it all you want to without ever having to worry about a table, terrain, etc.
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Nov 6, 2017 21:04
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The premise of blood bowl is an organised sporting event. Being able to play one off games out of a box without league play is kind of reasonable. Necromunda is a small scale skirmish wargame built entirely around around creating a gang, personalising it and watching it grow. They made a concious choice to split it up to make more money. Not wanting to have rules in the main rulebook for stuff that isn't in the box is weak as gently caress because they are the people that decided the terrain wouldn't be in the box. They added an entirely new way to play the game to justify spreading it over two purchases. 
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Nov 6, 2017 21:52
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They made a decision not to include $200 worth of plastic terrain in the box perhaps not out of greed, but because that would have made the starter box unreasonably expensive. Apparently under the new rules it's entirely possible to have a single skirmish game of Necromunda outside of a campaign context too.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:03
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Where did you pull that number from? They didn't need to include $200 of terrain  They also price the terrain, btw.  I've no idea how they could have possibly put out a box with miniatures, terrain AND a rulebook in. I guess its completely impossible and is nothing to do with a cash grab.  
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Nov 6, 2017 22:08
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TTerrible posted:The premise of blood bowl is an organised sporting event. Being able to play one off games out of a box without league play is kind of reasonable. Necromunda is a small scale skirmish wargame built entirely around around creating a gang, personalising it and watching it grow. They made a concious choice to split it up to make more money. I think it makes sense. I mean, I would prefer they did card terrain like the original box apparently had but that wasn't on the table because GW have all this plastic terrain they want you to use. This is how GW operates - army books, codexes, supplements - if they can charge separately for it they will.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:11
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I still think it's a better idea to do it this way. If they have done their jobs, we'll have a complete stand alone game that is fun to play, but which can seamlessly be expanded into something closer to the full Necromunda experience. Which should be an ideal intro purchase, and an ideal way of demoing the game to friends.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:11
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TTerrible posted:Where did you pull that number from? They didn't need to include $200 of terrain Ah come on, man. That's a bit disingenuous. SW:A was mostly the terrain, and a few old rear end scout and ork sculpts from existing kits that the molds were paid for long ago. Also, the game in the box is standalone, it's just as reasonable to play one-off style games (think Space Hulk) using the board and rules in the box set as it is Blood Bowl. EDIT: There's something to be said about having a self-contained board game that can then be expanded to a full out 3D terrain tabletop miniatures game. If Necromunda was just a reboot of Old Necromunda I don't think it would have the potential appeal to bring in people that never played the original (which by all accounts, Blood Bowl has managed to do with its model).
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Nov 6, 2017 22:13
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MrFlibble posted:I think it makes sense. I mean, I would prefer they did card terrain like the original box apparently had but that wasn't on the table because GW have all this plastic terrain they want you to use. Absolutely. It's a cash driven choice and thats fine but I can't stand people dressing it up as a neccesity because the rules aren't in the book/the terrain is expensive/whatever. The two types of gameplay were driven by the need to split the game into base game + expansion + terrain, not the other way around. They could have put stack of the walkway sprues in, maybe one of the stack/reactor things and two gangs. They just chose not to because they'll milk the nerds harder this way. Shadin posted:Ah come on, man. That's a bit disingenuous. SW:A was mostly the terrain, and a few old rear end scout and ork sculpts from existing kits that the molds were paid for long ago. Also, the game in the box is standalone, it's just as reasonable to play one-off style games (think Space Hulk) using the board and rules in the box set as it is Blood Bowl. A reprint of Necro with two new plastic gangs + terrain in a box would have sold out like the latest Space Hulk edition did. over. and. over. forever. Nerds and nostalgia. I dont' think they have any concerns at all about the Necro moulds not paying for themselves. TTerrible fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 22:15
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Hell, it's not even as if they needed to include fancy 3d terrain in the main box. Just throw in Gang War as an 'Advanced Rules' book like in the old WHQ set and you're done.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:24
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TTerrible posted:Where did you pull that number from? They didn't need to include $200 of terrain If my memory isn't failing me, I pulled the number from White Dwarf, where the product designers actually said that. I'd also like you to point me to where I can buy the fantastic deal that is Shadow War: Armageddon without paying crazy ebay prices, since I showed up to my local GW an hour after opening on release day and they were 100% sold out and no more sets were made. The reason GW don't want to sell a shitload of super detailed scenery along with two brand new ganger sprues at bargain prices is most likely because they actually want to make a profit on their investment and thus continue operating as a business, I don't see how this is hard to understand.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:52
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Texmo posted:If my memory isn't failing me, I pulled the number from White Dwarf, where the product designers actually said that. No, companies making enough money to thrive and survive is unethical. Also, the amount of terrain in SW:A is laughable. While it's an awesome kit, it's not nearly enough for an actual game of SW:A or presumably Necromunda (I have not played it before). I guess maybe the model they've gone with is awesome for newbies like me without preconceived notions about what Necromunda is and are just excited for something self-contained to play with the option of expanding down the road, but is less good for old grogs who want something very specific out of Necromunda.
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Nov 6, 2017 23:03
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Honestly I’m an old grog and I’m excited to be getting two games for $150. It’s going to be way easier to get people to play Board Game Necromunda on a whim than to get them to try full on New Old Necromunda.
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Nov 6, 2017 23:34
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Texmo posted:If my memory isn't failing me, I pulled the number from White Dwarf, where the product designers actually said that. The product designers revealed in the Games Workshop official magazine that the cost price for the SWA terrain is £200?.  Texmo posted:I'd also like you to point me to where I can buy the fantastic deal that is Shadow War: Armageddon without paying crazy ebay prices, since I showed up to my local GW an hour after opening on release day and they were 100% sold out and no more sets were made. ..what? That's my point. They could have sold it at a higher price with similar contents to the original release and it would have sold like crazy. Like SWA did and like Space Hulk did. Texmo posted:The reason GW don't want to sell a shitload of super detailed scenery along with two brand new ganger sprues at bargain prices is most likely because they actually want to make a profit on their investment and thus continue operating as a business, I don't see how this is hard to understand. I never at any point said they needed to sell it for a bargain price. Where has that come from? I never said they weren't allowed to sell it for a profit. What the gently caress are you talking about. bonds0097 posted:No, companies making enough money to thrive and survive is unethical.  bonds0097 posted:Also, the amount of terrain in SW:A is laughable. While it's an awesome kit, it's not nearly enough for an actual game of SW:A or presumably Necromunda (I have not played it before). As i said in another post, they could have chucked a pile of walkway sprues in, instead they developed a seperate ruleset and the cardstock to go with it. That cost money too. bonds0097 posted:I guess maybe the model they've gone with is awesome for newbies like me without preconceived notions about what Necromunda is and are just excited for something self-contained to play with the option of expanding down the road, but is less good for old grogs who want something very specific out of Necromunda. Weird how people might want Necromunda to be like Necromunda. 2017 continues to deliver.  It's like in the past when the prices of 40k characters was influenced by how good they were in game. Imagine someone saying "Uh, clearly they can't just charge normal price for this plastic miniature he has Eternal Warrior and BS5. It's not GWs fault, it's in the rulebook. "tl;dr again as people are seemingly wilfully misunderstanding me or something. I don't have an issue with GW making money. Or GW stuff being expensive, we all expect that now. I have an issue with people defending the splitting up of the game as something that had to be done because they wrote the rules a certain way. They made a concious decision to split the game into multiple parts to make more money out of it. I'll repeat that again just in case. I don't have an issue with them making money, I have an issue with people defending them doing so because "the rules are written that way, they can't help it".
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Nov 6, 2017 23:37
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Shadin posted:Honestly I’m an old grog and I’m excited to be getting two games for $150. It’s going to be way easier to get people to play Board Game Necromunda on a whim than to get them to try full on New Old Necromunda. This. As much as I love Necromunda setting up a game, never mind setting up a campaign, can be a mess. Just being able to slap down a board and play some games at the pub with some mates has had me really enjoying Warhammer Underworlds and I can't wait to do that with Necromunda.
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Nov 6, 2017 23:38
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TTerrible posted:I don't have an issue with them making money, I have an issue with people defending them doing so because "the rules are written that way, they can't help it". You have an issue understand how product design works then, because including a big thick book in the starter set that effectively says "you now need to buy about two hundred bucks worth of terrain in order to play the game properly"(no, SW:A is not enough terrain) that also has the effect of making the starter box cost more is gonna leave a sour taste in most consumer's mouths, whereas having the expanded rules in an expansion book not only lowers the cost of the core set, but also comes with an implicit agreement that you're buying into the Expanded Game which requires Additional Purchases. The Core Set is a complete product with everything you need to play the core game in it, and the Expansion book has stuff that tells you how to play the expanded game with. It's a Good Product Design decision, not a Price Gouging decision.
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Nov 7, 2017 00:02
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What I need most out of a game is people to play it with me and holy gently caress, did the new edition of Blood Bowl deliver that. I'm one of the assholes who didn't buy a single new thing for BB but I played in the last league and I can still grab a game any time I want. If I still had my old crew from 20 years ago to play Necromunda with, I wouldn't need anything from GW. I haven't seen any interest in Necromunda at my lgs basically ever. Even when my group was playing, we were playing at someone's house. If Necromunda can work like BB worked, not everyone will buy everything. Some people will just pick up a gang and play on someone else's set. Some people will go in on it in groups, like we did back in the day, where a couple of guys will split the main box, someone else will pick up the expansion book, and someone else can get the 3D terrain. I'm probably going to go nuts and get everything because I loved the poo poo out of Necromunda and I am prepared to bully my friends into playing it with me.
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Nov 7, 2017 00:18
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Texmo posted:You have an issue understand how product design works then, because including a big thick book in the starter set that effectively says "you now need to buy about two hundred bucks worth of terrain in order to play the game properly" Yeah, I'm sure the extra pages with the campaign and terrain rules would weigh just as much if not significantly more than an entire card gameboard, associated paraphenalia and the pages taken up by printing the rules for this entirely new game mode.  Texmo posted:(no, SW:A is not enough terrain) Good thing I never said it was or that they should include that exact terrain. Texmo posted:that also has the effect of making the starter box cost more is gonna leave a sour taste in most consumer's mouths, whereas having the expanded rules in an expansion book not only lowers the cost of the core set, but also comes with an implicit agreement that you're buying into the Expanded Game which requires Additional Purchases. Games Workshop customers: Noted as being averse to large price tags or buying new expansions/armies at the drop of the hat. This is wildly different to any other game they have ever released and it's a good thing they tried to bring customers attention to it. Texmo posted:The Core Set is a complete product with everything you need to play the core game in it, and the Expansion book has stuff that tells you how to play the expanded game with. There is only a core game and an expanded game because they chose to make it so. They could be the same thing, easily. They were before. Texmo posted:It's a Good Product Design decision, not a Price Gouging decision. Did you miss all the times I said I'm not mad that its expensive in this form, or would be expensive in the form I've proposed but I'm irritated by people claiming they had to do it this way for bullshit reasons? Are you actually reading my posts? Please write back.
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Nov 7, 2017 00:27
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TTerrible posted:Did you miss all the times I said I'm not mad that its expensive in this form, or would be expensive in the form I've proposed but I'm irritated by people claiming they had to do it this way for bullshit reasons? Are you actually reading my posts? Please write back. Dude, you seem pretty mad. People are excited that a game they liked is coming back, just let it go.
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Nov 7, 2017 00:49
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TTerrible posted:
Maybe making a game with less required components at a lower pricepoint would attract people beside existing GW customers.
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Nov 7, 2017 00:53
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Unless they've radically changed the rules of Necromunda, it has always been as much a campaign game as Blood Bowl has and for largely the same reasons. Starting gangs have poo poo stats, poor and unvaried equipment, and only a handful of skills to go around. Blood Bowl and Necromunda need the campaign to make the gangs interesting and to invest you in playing. I can't imagine wanting to play starting Goliaths and Eshers again and again and again just to say that I'm "playing Necromunda" and it's bizarre to me that so many people in this thread are taking that angle. Have you guys played it yet? Do we know if it's even a good two player game? To me, it's just another two player boardgame with miniatures. Without the campaign, it's not really Necromunda. It has the name and the aesthetic, but nothing else. Though I guess that's enough for some people. And that's fine, I get why they wanted a new entry point and why they want it to feel like a "complete game". It's just not a game I want. As before, I said that I'd be perfectly happy if Necromunda and Gang War existed as steps into the game for beginners, but I would absolutely love it if GW produced a separate, complete rulebook for veterans that has the core mechanics, the 3D terrain rules, and the campaign rules for those that know they want to play that way. There's nothing stopping GW from producing such a product. As it is, the current model is not something I'm interested in purchasing. I don't want two gangs, a bunch of cardboard, and rules spread across multiple books. I want one gang (or to use the one I already own) and a single book with the new rules. So at $150, I'm currently priced out. Also, saying that a thick rulebook that tells you you have to go and buy $200 worth of terrain to use your product is a terribly bad faith argument. If it's true for the core set, it's true for Gangwar as well. Your $30 expansion is worthless without the $200 terrain! But no one actually believes that. If you're playing in a club or at an FLGS, adequate terrain is already available to you. If you play other miniature games, you can probably put enough terrain on a 3x3 or 4x4 surface to play. Third party companies make a huge range of cheap, detailed terrain that would work with Necromunda, from plastic kits to MDF to printed card. And gamers, especially new gamers, have always been happy to throw some soda cans and cardboard on the table to play while they build up a collection of adequate terrain. I can't speak for everyone else, but when I got "big thick rulebooks" in my core sets as a teen, I didn't lament that I "couldn't play the game". I was excited and engaged by the scope of the game and couldn't wait to get playing and to expand when I had the money and opportunity. If you think GW is going to make no mention of the 3D and campaign rules in the core box, you're insane. It's just that now, new players won't get any more than a press release or an ad in the back of the book and certainly won't have a taste of what the mechanics will actually look like to really excite them into wanting to spend more money. And just to make sure I'm not cherry-picked here, I'm going to reiterate exactly what I mean: I have no issue with the box or Gang War as is and I get exactly why GW is doing that. I just don't see any value in it at that price since I know what I want out of Necromunda and I could get that experience with just a book and that's what I would love to see GW produce alongside the current products. Nyarlothotep posted:Maybe making a game with less required components at a lower pricepoint would attract people beside existing GW customers. Let me know when they do this.
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Nov 7, 2017 01:05
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Atlas Hugged posted:but I would absolutely love it if GW produced a separate, complete rulebook for veterans that has the core mechanics, the 3D terrain rules, and the campaign rules for those that know they want to play that way. Assuming you don't arbitrarily require the core rules and expanded rules to be in the same book, you just described the contents of the Gang War supplement. Atlas Hugged posted:Let me know when they do this. Shadespire is quite good
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Nov 7, 2017 01:19
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Texmo posted:Shadespire is quite good Take this trash to the appropriate thread
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Nov 7, 2017 01:21
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Texmo posted:Assuming you don't arbitrarily require the core rules and expanded rules to be in the same book, you just described the contents of the Gang War supplement. Doesn't Gang War not have the core mechanics in it? If it's a compete game in the book then yeah that's great. But my understanding is you still need the core rules, which are in a $125 box.
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Nov 7, 2017 01:22
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