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bonds0097 posted:There is nothing I can find to support that reading. The designer's commentary indicates that feel no pain style rules are rolled for after rolling for damage and the xenos index faq doesn't contradict that for Fortune, what are you basing this statement on? Yeah, this is what I was looking at too. The computer programmer and former magic judge in me really hate the fact that this is ambiguous - there is a single “flow” for the process of seeing if a model gets wounded, so if they want to have abilities that interfere with or trigger at points in that flow they should bloody well use consistent terminology for the steps! My problems with mortal wounds and saviour protocols in tau are the same - the magic judge in me says that by a very strict reading of saviour protocols the point in the “wound flow” that they interrupt doesn’t happen for a mortal wound, but most people appear to believe that it can offset them. It frustrates me because the amount of additional discipline or targeted proof reading needed for this to not be a problem is not that high.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:37
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One_Wing posted:Yeah, this is what I was looking at too. I think FFG is pretty good about this usually, providing clear sequence diagrams and consistent names for 'phases' so you know when exactly a given special rule is invoked.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:43
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GW are only just getting to grips with the idea of keywords and regular errata, let's not expect them to run before they can walk.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:45
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bonds0097 posted:There is nothing I can find to support that reading. The designer's commentary indicates that feel no pain style rules are rolled for after rolling for damage and the xenos index faq doesn't contradict that for Fortune, what are you basing this statement on? I'm trying to find where i saw it but the crux of the matter is the reuse of the term wound. since it goes suffer wound-> inflict damage -> lose wounds most feel no pains trigger off the target losing a wound and so generate multiple triggers, and then theres the outliers that go on suffer a wound and generate one trigger per wound suffered so its one roll for a las cannon hit rather than d6.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:49
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Artum posted:I'm trying to find where i saw it but the crux of the matter is the reuse of the term wound. since it goes suffer wound-> inflict damage -> lose wounds most feel no pains trigger off the target losing a wound and so generate multiple triggers, and then theres the outliers that go on suffer a wound and generate one trigger per wound suffered so its one roll for a las cannon hit rather than d6. That would make sense, except there's nowhere in the book where "suffers a wound" and "loses a wound" are explained to mean different things. They are used interchangeably because GW is careless with wording. If they changed Wounds to Hit Points we'd not be having this conversation.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:52
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Artum posted:I'm trying to find where i saw it but the crux of the matter is the reuse of the term wound. since it goes suffer wound-> inflict damage -> lose wounds most feel no pains trigger off the target losing a wound and so generate multiple triggers, and then theres the outliers that go on suffer a wound and generate one trigger per wound suffered so its one roll for a las cannon hit rather than d6. It doesn't go suffer wound -> inflict damage -> lose wounds though. There is no where in the rules that shows this flow. It goes allocate wound -> roll saving through -> inflict damage. The core rules make no such distinction between suffering and losing a wound. And barring evidence otherwise, I think your interpretation of the rules is incorrect, particularly when it contradicts the designer's commentary.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:53
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bonds0097 posted:It doesn't go suffer wound -> inflict damage -> lose wounds though. There is no where in the rules that shows this flow. Its not mine, like I said I'm trying to find where it was.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:55
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Artum posted:Its not mine, like I said I'm trying to find where it was. Well, it's not in the core rules, designer's commentary or any of the FAQs, which are the only sources of truth, so it's an incorrect interpretation regardless.
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Nov 6, 2017 20:59
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Artum posted:Its not mine, like I said I'm trying to find where it was. It's nowhere because it doesn't exist. It's Eldar players trying to rules lawyer a bonus to Fortune which isn't there.
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Nov 6, 2017 21:01
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Okay, so if wounds are first allocated, then lost, this sounds like it comes from someone finding an instance where "suffer" is used such that in context it is clearly a synonym for "allocate." I have a sneaking suspicion the book has at least one instance of suffer being used as synonym for allocate and at least one instance of suffer being used as synonym for lose.
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Nov 6, 2017 21:11
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Stephenls posted:Okay, so if wounds are first allocated, then lost, this sounds like it comes from someone finding an instance where "suffer" is used such that in context it is clearly a synonym for "allocate." I have a sneaking suspicion the book has at least one instance of suffer being used as synonym for allocate and at least one instance of suffer being used as synonym for lose. The problem is that they use the same word for "Does this packet of damage get through Y/N" and "How many units of Damage can I take before I die", when those are sepaarte concepts and should use separate words. It goes Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll Save, Roll Damage, Lose that many Wounds. Changing the name of Step 2 or Step 5 would fix it. As it stands people will always confuse things between those two steps.
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Nov 6, 2017 21:15
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Stephenls posted:Okay, so if wounds are first allocated, then lost, this sounds like it comes from someone finding an instance where "suffer" is used such that in context it is clearly a synonym for "allocate." I have a sneaking suspicion the book has at least one instance of suffer being used as synonym for allocate and at least one instance of suffer being used as synonym for lose. I CTRL+Fed through the core rules and could find no such instance but perhaps I missed it. Suffering/Losing and allocating are treated differently throughout.
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Nov 6, 2017 21:20
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A few more idiot Space Marine questions: Do I want this missile launcher in the Sniper Scout Squad? Should I bother making a greenstuff cloak for that last guy? Are Rhinos worth getting or are Land Raiders so good I should be slotting them in? Where can I find a non-poo poo Techmarine model?
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Nov 6, 2017 21:52
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mango sentinel posted:A few more idiot Space Marine questions: Probably, there's a pretty decent stratagem to deal mortal wounds with it. No, it's already there but rolled up on his back. Rhinos are super points efficient. Definitely don't just go all land raiders. Forgeworld has some decent options.
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Nov 6, 2017 21:56
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mango sentinel posted:A few more idiot Space Marine questions: The ML is your choice - its nice to have around, but expensive. You don't have to make a cloak for the other guy - since the whole squad has to take them or not, having the rest in cloaks is enough to be WYSIWYG for most people. Rhinos are good, and about a third the cost of a LR. LRs are great, especially crusaders, but expensive and take a HS slot. Unlss you really want to be running squads larger than 5 guys, you should generally always take Razorbacks over Rhinos - they are really good for the points. Get an Imperial Guard Techpriest and slap some shoulderpads on it. There is no plastic techmarine model, so that was the closest I could come. FW makes some that are nice, I think?
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Nov 6, 2017 21:57
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I can't help but feel GW could be helped by some scummy technical writing English majors just diagramming their sentences for them. They'll work for goddamn peanuts, too.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:19
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Proletariat Beowulf posted:I can't help but feel GW could be helped by some scummy technical writing English majors just diagramming their sentences for them. They'll work for goddamn peanuts, too. Most board, war, mini man games could used a good technical review of the rules.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:23
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Every game needs a good technical writer to go over the rules, especially to avoid poo poo like the Winds of Chaos issues with the Daemon army book in WHFB 8th. If they made their intentions clear and wrote the rules well (and functional so they don't require a day zero faq like Mordians) from the start it'd put an end to all the RAW vs RAI debates.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:28
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Zark the Damned posted:Every game needs a good technical writer to go over the rules, especially to avoid poo poo like the Winds of Chaos issues with the Daemon army book in WHFB 8th. And they often fall back on "If you don't like these rules, forge the narrative and play however you want since its Your Game!", which, thanks guys, I know I can make my own rules, but if I wanted to do that I wouldn't pay 60 bucks for yours. Get it right.
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Nov 6, 2017 22:29
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One_Wing posted:Yeah, this is what I was looking at too. I have always interpreted it as mortal wounds skip straight from hit/cast to making the model losing wound(s), so unless something specifically says when you lose a wound do a thing it should be ignored. 
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Nov 6, 2017 22:35
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Mortal wounds still have to be allocated. I know of several ways that mortal wounds can come up that aren't attacks and so would bypass savior protocols, though.
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Nov 6, 2017 23:47
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I was gonna do Armies on Parade, but the event started at noon, with votes being cast through tge day and ran til 7:30pm. I can kill time in a game store, I'm often happy to, but 7 and a half hours is a bit much. I decided to ham at a friend's house and drink beer instead, which was the right move. Somebody posted upthread about there not being any more Armies on Parade trophies; is that true? I love the silver one I got last year and was hoping for a gold.
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Nov 7, 2017 00:21
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SpikeMcclane posted:Mortal wounds still have to be allocated. Voidraven's Void Mine for example.
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Nov 7, 2017 01:47
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SRM posted:I was gonna do Armies on Parade, but the event started at noon, with votes being cast through tge day and ran til 7:30pm. I can kill time in a game store, I'm often happy to, but 7 and a half hours is a bit much. I decided to ham at a friend's house and drink beer instead, which was the right move. Somebody posted upthread about there not being any more Armies on Parade trophies; is that true? I love the silver one I got last year and was hoping for a gold. While I haven't been back to the store to pick it up, apparently you get a silver pin badge shaped like the old medals just for entering, and a larger, golden one for winning a category, along with a certificate showing which category you won and when. It's not quite the old trophies, but I'll gladly take it. I imagine it's cheaper than giving out a gold, silver, and bronze trophy for 12 categories per store.
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Nov 7, 2017 02:10
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JoshTheStampede posted:Rhinos are good, and about a third the cost of a LR. LRs are great, especially crusaders, but expensive and take a HS slot. Unlss you really want to be running squads larger than 5 guys, you should generally always take Razorbacks over Rhinos - they are really good for the points. Even if I'm taking 10 man squads, can't I still break them up into 5 man combat squads for Razorbacks?
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Nov 7, 2017 02:25
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mango sentinel posted:Even if I'm taking 10 man squads, can't I still break them up into 5 man combat squads for Razorbacks? Sure that also works. I more meant “unless you want to keep ten guys together”
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Nov 7, 2017 02:44
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Ropes4u posted:Most board, war, mini man games could used a good technical review of the rules. This is a problem with the TG industry as a whole. Nearly every bit of crunch would vastly benefit from a technical writer's touch, but the pay for writing in the industry is so low none will touch it.
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Nov 7, 2017 03:04
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SRM posted:I was gonna do Armies on Parade, but the event started at noon, with votes being cast through tge day and ran til 7:30pm. I can kill time in a game store, I'm often happy to, but 7 and a half hours is a bit much. I decided to ham at a friend's house and drink beer instead, which was the right move. Somebody posted upthread about there not being any more Armies on Parade trophies; is that true? I love the silver one I got last year and was hoping for a gold. you don't have to sit there with your board for 7 hours. You just need to drop it off and come back.
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Nov 7, 2017 04:20
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We must (critically) support Chaos in its struggle against imperialism
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Nov 7, 2017 04:52
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Mugaaz posted:you don't have to sit there with your board for 7 hours. You just need to drop it off and come back. You'll never win a popularity contest that way.
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Nov 7, 2017 04:54
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If you're not there to hover around your board making minute adjustments to miniature positions and sweat anxiously while people mouthbreathe all over your work what's the point?
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Nov 7, 2017 05:00
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Just double-checking: on the Genestealer sprue, the flesh hooks are the heads with the pointy tentacles coning out of their mouths and the acid maws are the weird diseased looking ones, but is there a significance to the eyeless heads or the Ymgarl style ones besides “looks cool”?
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Nov 7, 2017 06:36
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PantsOptional posted:Just double-checking: on the Genestealer sprue, the flesh hooks are the heads with the pointy tentacles coning out of their mouths and the acid maws are the weird diseased looking ones, but is there a significance to the eyeless heads or the Ymgarl style ones besides “looks cool”? No. The skull makes for a good base decoration though. And the Feeder Tendrils are now a stratagem for some reason, so the head is completely decorative.
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Nov 7, 2017 06:41
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Argh. I have a 100pl tourney I want to play this weekend, and thanks to work I got next to nothing assembled this week. Gonna have Friday and Saturday to get my backlog put together. Guess I may just be spectating.
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Nov 7, 2017 08:15
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I'm thinking of starting either a Tyrannid or Necron army after Christmas. Can someone please give me some outlines of how they play? Currently I have a pretty sizeable CSM army (Khorne and Nurgle). I picked CSM because I thought they looked interesting. I like both Necrons and Tyrannids equally in that regard. I like how CSM has many customization options and know Necrons have less than Tyrannids, but that's not a big deal. I know Necrons are slow and powerful. Are they similar to Death Guard? I know Tyrannids are a horde army but in what way do they differ from other horde armies? Also I don't care about power gaming but I don't want to be steamrolled because I picked a particularly weak army. Tyrannids got buffed with 8th right? I heard horror stories about them from 7th ed players.
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Nov 7, 2017 10:43
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Nids have a new book coming out on Saturday, so it's hard to tell. It looks like they're going to be good though. Frontline Gaming did a good video batrep this week (important qualities - the hosts are actual humans rather than nerdkings and they keep the thing short) which can give you a little bit of insight as to what the changes will be and how they'll influence the Nid playstyle.
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Nov 7, 2017 11:14
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I'm really excited for the new nids codex, but I'm also skeptical that they'll become top tier. They still seem to lack reliable anti-tank options, and though they can put out a lot of shots, most units are BS 4 and lack the rerolls that most of the good armies get. Against a mostly infantry army, I think nids will totally dominate. But against heavy armored stuff, especially things like knights, they're still going to struggle.
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Nov 7, 2017 13:10
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Corrode posted:Nids have a new book coming out on Saturday, so it's hard to tell. It looks like they're going to be good though. Frontline Gaming did a good video batrep this week (important qualities - the hosts are actual humans rather than nerdkings and they keep the thing short) which can give you a little bit of insight as to what the changes will be and how they'll influence the Nid playstyle. In reply to MasterTwig's comments as well, it's interesting to get the different conclusions from peoples' battle reports on youtube. (I have been laid up at home and watched way too many the past few days) Some are from people who have no real idea about the gameplay or tactics or what's 'good'; some of these don't care and are just casual players having a good time, while some are full of opinions. The strangest I watched was by Bell of lost souls, well-known awful website. They had a very professional camera set-up, constant schills for subscription/donation etc, but appeared to not actually know what armies they were playing, ie one of the players was literally asking what 'his' units were called and what they did. Some reports, and I put Frontline into this category, are very much aimed at tournament players. They all use this complex scoring system (ITC?) which I'm sure is better balanced than the stock missions, but of course like any victory condition it imposes another layer of decisions onto the game, and it means nothing to me or anyone else who doesn't use it. Their assumptions as players obviously rotate around facing the top competitive army types at this time, you can see the players have set deployment plans with everything in a central bubble in order to gain re-roll auras, and a screen of infantry to prevent deepstrike assaults, etc. I'm not criticising this style of battle report, but I find it interesting - Corrode is obviously a guy who has to think about how to beat Guilliman, Magnus etc when he faces those models in his next tournament. So it's very useful to him to watch those. I don't play in tournaments so some things seem more alien to me. I do think some elements are constant: batreps should be kept short, I find it a downside when they show every single roll in slow time. Some hosts get really, really over-excited. There's one guy (The Glacial Geek?) who, whenever he makes all saves, or just rolls a 6, shouts 'whhoooooo!' at an annoying pitch. It seems to be his thing, people comment on the video encouraging him. If I was playing him I'd really have to make an effort to stay civil. To each his own, I guess.
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Nov 7, 2017 13:30
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Master Twig posted:I'm really excited for the new nids codex, but I'm also skeptical that they'll become top tier. They still seem to lack reliable anti-tank options, and though they can put out a lot of shots, most units are BS 4 and lack the rerolls that most of the good armies get. Against a mostly infantry army, I think nids will totally dominate. But against heavy armored stuff, especially things like knights, they're still going to struggle. Isn't the expectation with Tyranids that your anti-tank is going to be in the form of a melee monstrous creature and not something shooting? I would never expect them to have long-range, accurate anti-tank firepower because it doesn't seem their style
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Nov 7, 2017 13:48
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goose willis posted:Isn't the expectation with Tyranids that your anti-tank is going to be in the form of a melee monstrous creature and not something shooting? I would never expect them to have long-range, accurate anti-tank firepower because it doesn't seem their style If you have no capability wrt long-range anti-tank, your army sucks, no ifs no buts. Incidentally, this weakness is one of the things which GW has recognised and e.g. Kronos and double-tapping Exocrines is meant to fix. It's also one of the reasons that pure Primaris doesn't work. Genghis Cohen posted:I'm not criticising this style of battle report, but I find it interesting - Corrode is obviously a guy who has to think about how to beat Guilliman, Magnus etc when he faces those models in his next tournament. So it's very useful to him to watch those. I don't play in tournaments so some things seem more alien to me. I feel driven to point out that I've only played ~10 games of 8th and in no way consider myself good in this edition, and my first tournament in this edition is probably going to end up being in 2018 because a combination of professional exams and my wife's determination to book out every one of my weekends months in advance is really limiting the dates I can make.
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Nov 7, 2017 13:53
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