|
Never mind he sounds like a piece of poo poo.
admanb fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Nov 7, 2017 |
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 08:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 10:58 |
|
|
CA Suleiman is the author of a fantasy novel (series?) called Tales of the Lost Citadel, and his association with Green Ronin is that he's developing a tabletop RPG based on this world? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33651706-tales-of-the-lost-citadel https://greenronin.com/blog/2017/01/24/press-release-green-ronin-to-publish-lost-citadel-roleplaying-game/ To be clear I'm not looking to defend this person or anything, it's that I didn't see Suleiman credited in, say, Fantasy AGE or True20 or Blue Rose.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 08:19
|
|
|
So...what do we make of this then? Is it a justified accusation or just the first of a spearhead of BS targeting people for minor things? Man, I miss people not being shitheads.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 08:44
|
|
|
Mr.Misfit posted:So...what do we make of this then? Is it a justified accusation or just the first of a spearhead of BS targeting people for minor things? Man, I miss people not being shitheads. He's probably not an anti-Semite, but he's a creep towards ladies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 08:50
|
|
|
Well I guess "I believe victims of sexual harassment but Jews are probably still lying Zionists" is progress in a way, whatever gets people not rewarding his crap.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 09:13
|
|
|
Mr.Misfit posted:So...what do we make of this then? Is it a justified accusation or just the first of a spearhead of BS targeting people for minor things? Man, I miss people not being shitheads. It's generally a good idea to err on the side of believing the victim.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 09:16
|
|
|
I'm wary of accusations of anti-semitism based on someone being critical of Israel, because the right wing of the Labour Party have been accusing left wing Jewish people of being anti-semitic because they support the Oslo agreement or oppose the current Israeli government. Literally the anti-semitism accusations at the recent conference were made against a former Israeli commando speaking out against the occupation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 09:49
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:To be clear I'm not looking to defend this person or anything, it's that I didn't see Suleiman credited in, say, Fantasy AGE or True20 or Blue Rose. He was also the lead developer on the most recent Mummy game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 10:02
|
|
|
Thundercloud posted:I'm wary of accusations of anti-semitism based on someone being critical of Israel, because the right wing of the Labour Party have been accusing left wing Jewish people of being anti-semitic because they support the Oslo agreement or oppose the current Israeli government. Yeah, racist or otherwise immoral political speech has a higher burden of trust than physical/verbal sexual abuse, usually because there's a greater chance for misunderstanding or misrepresentation and because there's usually a recording or in text proof. Like people were accusing Zoe Quinn of condoning rape during GG because she said that sleeping around without your partner's knowledge was a violation akin to rape, and then pointing to the accusations that sparked the whole thing off as proof that she was a rapist under her own definition.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 10:04
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:The RPG.net thread got thoroughly derailed after/due to this accusation and eventually got locked. So I'm not even sure where to look for it now. Maybe I missed it in the giant shitshow, but has an actual person(s) come forward here to say he's still a sexual harasser after claiming to have cleaned up his act? Because most of that part of the lovely thread was a whole lot of "my whisper network (which is totally more legit than these other people's whisper networks) says this is an ongoing problem". Which is a pretty big world of difference from what went down with McFarland. We can and should believe victims coming forward, but that doesn't mean we should believe every person on the internet claiming insider knowledge given second hand by unspecified parties.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 12:38
|
|
|
The sexual harassment stuff has had more people talking about it as true than the antisemitism, which came mostly from loving Holden, who I do not trust at all. But even without that, it's pretty loving bad, so... Mixed feelings of 'gently caress that guy' and 'gently caress Holden' and 'man, antisemitism accusations are hard to deal with as a Jew critical of Israel.'
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 12:43
|
|
|
Was he the one writing heroic Palestinian suicide bombers into oMummy, or am I remembering something else?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 12:58
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Was LoM the one where they added a variant kind of mind flayer, because they realized mind flayers are popular but too high-level? I know there are lots of weird illithid variants, but these guys were basically just illithid astronauts who went exploring and came back CR 6-8. Lords of Madness has a lot of variants and extra illithid stats, but you might be thinking of the Mind Flayers of Thoon from the MM5, one of the two campaign-hook threats they pitched there along with the Dragons of the Great Game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 13:22
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:The sexual harassment stuff has had more people talking about it as true than the antisemitism, which came mostly from loving Holden, who I do not trust at all. But even without that, it's pretty loving bad, so... But this round feels different. Different people are involved, and the specifics are different, and it's not Holden throwing poo poo to see what sticks at the wall so people don't look too closely at the people he's been protecting. It's disappointing to see Green Ronin involved, and also disappointing that they can't practice what they preach here. They need to do the right thing, and really work to make restitution because they should have known better in the first place. I just really hope part of the outcome from this isn't reforming Holden's position because if CA Suleiman was his friend, we know drat well Holden wouldn't say a loving thing. He's explicitly said as much. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Nov 7, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 14:27
|
|
|
What has Holden done?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 14:33
|
|
|
ravenkult posted:What has Holden done? Covered for his cowriter, Jon Morke, harassing female fans and writers for Exalted. And admitted to it. Also, generally, being a terrible person who ignored all criticisms of his and Morke's writing, including the time Morke wrote a series of powers that involved magic rape ghosts, and lying about the work they had completed, and demanding to be paid for work they weren't even contracted to produce, which they made instead of actually doing the work they were contracted for.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 14:35
|
|
|
I'm referring specifically to this bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 14:36
|
|
|
Lindroos was melting down on facebook the other day about the accusations against CAS. Then melted down again because some dude who had the last name as one of the people she slammed back asked her to please clarify by using a first name as well. Then yesterday the tweet linked earlier went out and I saw ten different women on my facebook talking about how themselves had been harassed or assaulted by CAS (apparently it's common knowledge he does this poo poo in the horror author community). What a shitshow.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 14:44
|
|
|
Yeah. Suleiman is awful and needs to get forced out, Lindroos and Green Ronin are really showing their asses, and gently caress Holden because he muddied the waters on this in a completely craven way that meant more people got hurt.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 14:46
|
|
|
From what it appears the anti-semitism charge is dubious at best, but the evidence of sexual harassment is pretty awful. Come on, GR, you're better than this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 15:26
|
|
|
Desiden posted:Maybe I missed it in the giant shitshow, but has an actual person(s) come forward here to say he's still a sexual harasser after claiming to have cleaned up his act? According to the twitter thread started by Hillary Monahan, he groped multiple women at StokerCon (one of whom tweeted in that thread), so it's definitely still an ongoing thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 15:53
|
|
|
Peas and Rice posted:From what it appears the anti-semitism charge is dubious at best, but the evidence of sexual harassment is pretty awful. Come on, GR, you're better than this. Yeah, make no mistake, I deffo believe the sexual harassment charges.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 15:56
|
|
|
Are there any male figures in the industry who aren't sexual harassers?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 16:12
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:Are there any male figures in the industry who aren't sexual harassers? Neall Price seems okay?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 16:13
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:Are there any male figures in the industry who aren't sexual harassers? Jim McGarva and Nicholas Arroyo seem like good people and I'd be really disappointed if they weren't. I think I'm going to buy more stuff from Erika Chappell because uuugghhhhh
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 16:19
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:Are there any male figures in the industry who aren't sexual harassers? Sure.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 16:19
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:Are there any male figures in the industry who aren't sexual harassers? There's a bunch of reasons for it, but I think an under-discussed aspect of how predatory and toxic actors get protected in these spaces is that it also enables them to rise faster than they would otherwise. On top of making it easy for them to browbeat or intimidate to get advantage, it also means there's less criticism of them in general. Basically there's the very real concern that leveling any critique against these people will lead to the harassment stuff getting brought up too, and there are plenty of good reasons someone, especially a victim, wouldn't want to deal with the blowback from that. So often these predators get an aura of being maybe a bit difficult to work with, but if you're not inside the whisper network warning people about the predatory behavior, then it looks like they get less critique than their colleagues, which gets interpreted as them being good at their jobs. EDIT: As an addendum, it means it's hard to tell when someone who has a good rep is a predator people are afraid of criticizing, or someone who's just good people. That ends up cutting both ways - it makes predators even more of an unseen landmine, and it means those trying to protect themselves from predators end up missing opportunities because they have to be hypervigilant. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Nov 7, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 16:39
|
|
|
Women are also incentivized to not report these things when they happen. For fear of ostracizing themselves, or because they don't want to be seen as weak in a traditionally male dominated industry.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 17:00
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Women are also incentivized to not report these things when they happen. For fear of ostracizing themselves, or because they don't want to be seen as weak in a traditionally male dominated industry.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 17:05
|
|
|
Peas and Rice posted:From what it appears the anti-semitism charge is dubious at best, but the evidence of sexual harassment is pretty awful. Come on, GR, you're better than this. I'm really genuinely sorry if it sounds like I'm harping on this but both charges are equally 'people are saying he's a scumbag', one is women are saying he did predatory poo poo and the other is Jewish writers are saying they blocked him because of antisemitic poo poo. Why is it that one has more weight? Why does the 'believe victims' line keep not including Jewish people saying 'yea this guy's hosed up about us too'? I don't know the inner working of the RPG world but I can tell you there's a lot of 'creative types' that get their antisemitism excused by occasionally also saying 'and I don't like what the Israeli government is doing' and hiding behind that to say 'oh see they're just saying I hate Jews because of that'. Why is it so hard to believe a predatory harasser also maybe thinks poorly of other minority groups?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
Possibly because nobody's actually said what he did that constitutes antisemitism, but people are getting rather specific regarding harassment and assault allegations. Also, fake accusations of assault are pretty goddamn rare, while antisemitism accusations are sadly commonly used to shut down legitimate criticism of Israeli state actions, so yeah - more details are needed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:I'm really genuinely sorry if it sounds like I'm harping on this but both charges are equally 'people are saying he's a scumbag', one is women are saying he did predatory poo poo and the other is Jewish writers are saying they blocked him because of antisemitic poo poo. Why is it that one has more weight? Why does the 'believe victims' line keep not including Jewish people saying 'yea this guy's hosed up about us too'? I don't know the inner working of the RPG world but I can tell you there's a lot of 'creative types' that get their antisemitism excused by occasionally also saying 'and I don't like what the Israeli government is doing' and hiding behind that to say 'oh see they're just saying I hate Jews because of that'. Why is it so hard to believe a predatory harasser also maybe thinks poorly of other minority groups? The specific example generally pointed to isn't particularly cut and dry. It's based on an early draft that got reworked, and even that version reads as a ham-handed critique of Israeli government policy that subsequently got more nuance added to it. This also gets complicated because the person beating the drum the most on that is very clearly looking to deflect attention away from their own dirty laundry. And has been pointed out above, there are cases where the charge is weaponized. On the one hand there are definite examples of creators/"progressives" using criticism of Israeli policy as a fig leaf for anti-Semitism, and on the other definite examples of right wing parties using charges of anti-Semitism as a rhetorical hammer against critics. Both sides of that coin are really gross, not least since they most often poo poo on Jewish critics of the Israeli government. That being said, it's probably better to say we don't trust accusations coming from Holden, whether of harassment or antisemitism, because of his shady history on the matter. When this first popped up on our radar it was the harassment that had independent sources and thus immediately credible. If someone other than Holden is alleging antisemitism, than I'm inclined to believe it, only excepting someone with a well-established history of using the charge to shut down criticism (e.g. Uri Grey). Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Nov 7, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 19:55
|
|
|
That, mostly. And yeah, as a Jew myself - anti-Semitism is common, but so are false accusations of it. I need at least to know what is alleged to have happened before I can make any decisions regarding the anti-Semitism accusations. (Hell, my own mother once told me that there was nothing worse than a self-hating Jew when I told her I hated the party in power in Israel and it took an hour of discussion before she'd accept that I, a Jew, was not hating all Jews for hating Bibi and his nationalists.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 19:56
|
|
|
CAS is Palestinian-American, and IIRC has lost family members to the occupation forces. The antisemitism charges never seem to add up to anything other than being very, understandably, vocal about his feelings toward Israel on Facebook. Cliche as anything to say this, I know, but several of his best friends and frequent writing collaborators are Jewish. As for the sexism... Who knows? Green Ronin say they're looking at the new accusations and will issue a statement in a bit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
The vibe I get from a lot of anti-semitism accusations is the same one as I get from people accusing critics of American military policy of being unpatriotic. It is of course supremely unhelpful that genuine anti-semites exist, and sometimes believe ardently in the whole End Times thing and 'biblical law' at the same time. The cognitive dissonance of hating Jewish people while yearning to follow ancient Jewish laws and obeying a Jewish prophecy is simply astonishing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
occamsnailfile posted:The vibe I get from a lot of anti-semitism accusations is the same one as I get from people accusing critics of American military policy of being unpatriotic. It is of course supremely unhelpful that genuine anti-semites exist, and sometimes believe ardently in the whole End Times thing and 'biblical law' at the same time. The cognitive dissonance of hating Jewish people while yearning to follow ancient Jewish laws and obeying a Jewish prophecy is simply astonishing. Yeah, the people who think that jews are subhuman but also think that once you round them all up in the holy land the rapture turns on are terrible and insane.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 22:43
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:I'm really genuinely sorry if it sounds like I'm harping on this but both charges are equally 'people are saying he's a scumbag', one is women are saying he did predatory poo poo and the other is Jewish writers are saying they blocked him because of antisemitic poo poo. Why is it that one has more weight? Why does the 'believe victims' line keep not including Jewish people saying 'yea this guy's hosed up about us too'? I don't know the inner working of the RPG world but I can tell you there's a lot of 'creative types' that get their antisemitism excused by occasionally also saying 'and I don't like what the Israeli government is doing' and hiding behind that to say 'oh see they're just saying I hate Jews because of that'. Why is it so hard to believe a predatory harasser also maybe thinks poorly of other minority groups? I'm really sorry if I came across as being inconsistent here. I honestly don't know if he's truly an anti-semite or not. I was going off of what I've read of some of the accusations against him, and what he's said himself, which seems to 100% be confined to condemnations of Israeli policy. For all I know the man's a raging anti-semite and just keeps it hidden, or he isn't at all. It's a minefield of politics, personal identity, and complex history that I'm relatively ignorant about, and I was only trying to state what it seemed to me from what was publicly available. Basically this: Dave Brookshaw posted:CAS is Palestinian-American, and IIRC has lost family members to the occupation forces. The antisemitism charges never seem to add up to anything other than being very, understandably, vocal about his feelings toward Israel on Facebook. Cliche as anything to say this, I know, but several of his best friends and frequent writing collaborators are Jewish. Edit: If that's problematic, I'm absolutely willing to listen and re-evaluate how I've approached this. Kurieg posted:Yeah, the people who think that jews are subhuman but also think that once you round them all up in the holy land the rapture turns on are terrible and insane. There's a whole branch of my in laws' family who believe this specifically because they want the End Times to start. They're awful human beings.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 22:51
|
|
|
A FB page for the Brazilian RPG community page asked for stories of harassment against female players and a lot of women came out with those: http://www.garotasgeeks.com/sobre-machismo-no-rpg-e-lugares-seguros-para-mulheres-rpgistas/ (Portuguese)quote:"When I started playing my character fainted every action scene because the GM said that as a woman my character couldn't handle strong emotions in combat. Left after 2 sessions." quote:"When I started playing the GM kept having my character raped and the other players insulted me because I wasn't curing them (The GM didn't let me read the book so I didn't knew Clerics could cure). quote:"I made a character who was supposed to be 12/13 years old (a child) and after my first combat against three bandits which I lost due to being Level 1 and he narrated her being raped with rich details and how another character found me 'all torn up' in the woods later.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 23:34
|
|
|
Falstaff posted:According to the twitter thread started by Hillary Monahan, he groped multiple women at StokerCon (one of whom tweeted in that thread), so it's definitely still an ongoing thing. Fair enough. The RPG.net thread might have clarified it out eventually, had it not been closed. Not that I can blame them for not wanting to back away from the whole swirling poo poo storm.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 00:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 10:58 |
|
|
Desiden posted:Fair enough. The RPG.net thread might have clarified it out eventually, had it not been closed. Not that I can blame them for not wanting to back away from the whole swirling poo poo storm. Give them til after 11 November and there just might be clarification there after all. Or just a bigger, swirlier shitstorm, take your pick. But that's when the rpg.net mods are re-opening the gates to the conversation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 02:09
|
|
