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SteelMentor posted:I just love to see the same 3-4 Death Thread grogs scream endlessly about a company they supposedly don't care about anymore. 
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Nov 8, 2017 17:26
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Hamshot posted:After searching Wikipedia, I believe this might be relevant to you for the argumentative fallacies you have committed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi. I've gone back and done some reading, how about you do the same? So let's go back a bit. Re-releasing AT is cool and good for people who never got in on it in the first place. We can agree on that, yes? The new version of AT is Titans only. No infantry or tanks at this point. OK, I like giant, stompy robits as much as the next guy, so a giant, stompy robits only game is cool. The new version of AT is going to be released in 8mm. OK, if all I ever care about playing is this particular giant, stompy robit game, I guess I don't have a problem with that. It certainly makes sense from a sculpting detail point of view, sure. When FW says stuff like "8mm is better because you can distinguish marks of power armor at 8mm," my next logical question becomes, "Who cares? Giant, stompy robit game doesn't include power armor. Does it? Will it?" And then you might get excited, and think, "Oooh, is this re-release of AT a first step to a re-release of Epic?!?! That would be loving RAD!" But if that's the case, you know they won't take those shiny, new AT minis and shrink them down to Epic scale, as that would be stupid. And then the guys who have been waiting for an Epic re-release for a decade raise their hands and say, "Point of order? changing the scale of the minis for an Epic re-release is kind of a dick move." Further, I know you think 2mm is not a big deal, but at tiny scales, big percentage changes (and a 33% increase is big) are actually much more noticeable. And this says nothing about GW/FW's other pet "gently caress you" move which is how things are based, as bases size/shape often has mechanical effects in the game. So people who love Epic and would love nothing more than a full-blown Epic re-release are understandably leery about the AT re-release because for them it looks an awful lot like the writing on the wall. Does that make sense? Is there anything in that chain of logic that you think doesn't follow? Does it speak to a point other than that which you were trying to make? If so, what is the point you are trying to make?
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Nov 8, 2017 17:28
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Broken Record Talk posted:Nothing like white knighting for a game you don't even play.  I've seriously considered taking up Dropfleet Commander just so that I won't be tempted.
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Nov 8, 2017 17:32
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JcDent posted:Well, you can't rightly use your 6mm units next to the towering 8mm giants? If they had supported it more maybe it wouldn't have been axed. 
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Nov 8, 2017 17:45
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They being the customers.
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Nov 8, 2017 17:46
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Every game GW has released in the last year or so has been excellent. I'm sure this is no exception. Give it an honest shot and I'm sure you'll love it. Sticking with old tired rule sets seems to be a really bad move. Horus Heresy is trying it out and now nobody plays it
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Nov 8, 2017 17:47
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Ilor posted:No, it's not just a board game. It's re-release of an existing miniatures game, one for which GW has already put out (and people have already purchased) huge quantities of stuff. Ah yes the existing miniature game that I can go buy the miniatures for from a dodgy australian on a dodgy forum with dodgy resin. That existing game. Yup.
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Nov 8, 2017 17:52
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Hixson posted:Sticking with old tired rule sets seems to be a really bad move. Horus Heresy is trying it out and now nobody plays it Just ask Blood Bowl!
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Nov 8, 2017 17:55
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ijyt posted:Ah yes the existing miniature game that I can go buy the miniatures for from a dodgy australian on a dodgy forum with dodgy resin. That existing game. Yup. Don't joke about that, I still want those minis.
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Nov 8, 2017 17:59
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Broken Record Talk posted:Don't joke about that, I still want those minis. hamshot wishes he were australian
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Nov 8, 2017 18:00
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ijyt posted:If they had supported it more maybe it wouldn't have been axed. GW axed SG because it was taking resources away from 40K, which was their big seller. It had nothing to do with customers supporting the games, as the line was never intended as a big moneymaker - it was more a labor of love by Jervis Johnson. As for the scale increase in AT, yeah, it won't affect anyone outside of a very small group that still plays Epic, and that's fine. AT is its own game, and unless GW decides to expand into an Epic reboot, it's not a big deal - the only people it will piss off are folks like me who have multiple 6mm armies, and will have a hard time justifying rebuying everything just to keep current. But let's not pretend that GW chose 8mm as anything other than a way to force the old Epic players to buy in if they want to play, as well as making it incompatible with the both standards of third party 6mm (1/285) and 10mm scales. The "more detail!" argument they put forth as the excuse is bogus - I and others have created 6mm scale Epic scale models, and they have a ton of detail because CAD technology allows for it now. berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 18:12
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berzerkmonkey posted:But let's not pretend that GW chose 8mm as anything other than a way to force the old Epic players to buy in if they want to play, as well as making it incompatible with the both standards of third party 6mm (1/285) and 10mm scales. Forgeworld said they chose 8mm because it was the best tradeoff between size and being able to tell different Marks of armor apart at tabletop distance. I guess we could just assume they're lying, but then again they could've gone 10mm and made the original 6mm sculpts almost utterly incompatible, instead of now where you could absolutely use them. So that conspiracy theory doesn't really pan out.
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Nov 8, 2017 18:22
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berzerkmonkey posted:The "more detail!" argument they put forth as the excuse is bogus - I and others have created 6mm scale Epic scale models, and they have a ton of detail because CAD technology allows for it now. they actually look pretty poo poo IMO, bring on 8mm. Also lol classic TG goons with their "no see I know better than the multi-million dollar making company because".
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Nov 8, 2017 18:24
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ijyt posted:they actually look pretty poo poo IMO, bring on 8mm. Also lol classic TG goons with their "no see I know better than the multi-million dollar making company because". Yeah It's like uninformed nerds screeching about microtransactions in video games. It makes them more money, which is good for company, which is good for the game
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Nov 8, 2017 18:28
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Clash of Clans: The Horus Heresy, coming next year!
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Nov 8, 2017 18:29
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Broken Record Talk posted:Clash of Clans: The Horus Heresy, coming next year! You joke but... it already exists. https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/the-horus-heresy-drop-assault/id915554816?mt=8
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Nov 8, 2017 18:43
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i am no longer interested in the robots game and have instead dedicated my enthusiasm to knowing half of you will die unloved and alone. you know which half.
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Nov 8, 2017 18:48
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ijyt posted:they actually look pretty poo poo IMO, bring on 8mm. Gosh, you're right - they do look like absolute poo poo. What was I thinking?   ijyt posted:Also lol classic TG goons with their "no see I know better than the multi-million dollar making company because". Shadin posted:Forgeworld said they chose 8mm because it was the best tradeoff between size and being able to tell different Marks of armor apart at tabletop distance. I guess we could just assume they're lying, but then again they could've gone 10mm and made the original 6mm sculpts almost utterly incompatible, instead of now where you could absolutely use them. So that conspiracy theory doesn't really pan out. Again, any new edition of Epic will only affect a very small group, so it is what it is. berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 19:00
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berzerkmonkey posted:Gosh, you're right - they do look like absolute poo poo. What was I thinking? lol
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Nov 8, 2017 19:21
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berzerkmonkey posted:Epic, as it stands now, uses a lot of template weapons - different scales are going to mess with formation sizes and template coverage. Except the base sizes are the same in the pictures they've shown, so the templates will work fine.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:22
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i remember when a bunch of 40k goons thought they could totally make a better 40k than gw, and the sum total of their accomplishments was like, naming a thread
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Nov 8, 2017 19:26
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Shadin posted:Except the base sizes are the same in the pictures they've shown, so the templates will work fine. Except they aren't. A group of 8mm troops is going to have a larger base size than a group of 6mm simply because you can't fit five guys on an existing 40x10mm troop base. Also, vehicles will bump up in size 33%, so you're looking at a 33% larger area covered by a formation, while templates will, ostensibly, remain the same size. ijyt posted:lol
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Nov 8, 2017 19:29
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your argument is flawed from the start because, even in a make-believe world where GW is obligated to give a poo poo about a game older than it's average player, it definitely doesn't have a reason to care about not invalidating your (very good) third-party sculpts
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Nov 8, 2017 19:31
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:your argument is flawed from the start because, even in a make-believe world where GW is obligated to give a poo poo about a game older than it's average player, it definitely doesn't have a reason to care about not invalidating your (very good) third-party sculpts I know that - I stated that a couple of times. It would have been nice to have compatibility between the editions/games, but GW doesn't owe anything to me or to any other gamer. I can certainly continue to play 6mm Epic after AT is released, just as I am today. berzerkmonkey posted:Again, any new edition of Epic will only affect a very small group, so it is what it is. berzerkmonkey posted:As for the scale increase in AT, yeah, it won't affect anyone outside of a very small group that still plays Epic, and that's fine. AT is its own game, and unless GW decides to expand into an Epic reboot, it's not a big deal - the only people it will piss off are folks like me who have multiple 6mm armies, and will have a hard time justifying rebuying everything just to keep current.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:35
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I just want some 6mm Epic stuff. Or 8mm. Doesn't really matter, I just want to field a gently caress ton of mans.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:37
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:i remember when a bunch of 40k goons thought they could totally make a better 40k than gw, and the sum total of their accomplishments was like, naming a thread That is probably significantly better than some game systems I've seen though.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:47
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Broken Record Talk posted:I just want some 6mm Epic stuff. Or 8mm. Doesn't really matter, I just want to field a gently caress ton of mans.
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Nov 8, 2017 20:05
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I certainly enjoyed the last seventy posts.
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Nov 8, 2017 22:11
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ineptmule posted:I certainly enjoyed the last seventy posts. It's okay, you don't have to lie. My thread is becoming the new Death Thread, even though this is the best year for Specialist Games in the last twenty years. Good job, Goons.
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Nov 8, 2017 22:13
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Shadin posted:It's okay, you don't have to lie. My thread is becoming the new Death Thread, even though this is the best year for Specialist Games in the last twenty years. Good job, Goons. Don't worry - it will come back around again with the release of NM.
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Nov 8, 2017 22:23
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berzerkmonkey posted:Don't worry - it will come back around again with the release of NM. No, you see, Necromunda is actually terrible because as far as I know the rules are going to be different from the original. That means that all the decades of work from the fine people at nex0rmunda.su to create custom scenarios is going to be rendered obsolete. Also, the Escher gangs have different weapon options now than the originals released in 1995, making everything that I bought 22 years ago obsolete and therefore GW is directly loving me in the rear end. Games can only be played and enjoyed if all versions of that game, both direct sequel and simply inspired recreations, are 100% backwards compatible until the end of time. As soon as a version comes out that isn't, GW renders all previous versions inert and comes to your house and fucks your sister in front of your entire family. Also all of the behaviors regarding making new versions of games, relaunching old game titles, or creating new games that are inspired from previous games long out of print are solely attributable to none other than Games Workshop, British Swindlers Extraordinaire, making them the objectively worst Serious Miniatures Gaming Business company on the planet.
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Nov 8, 2017 22:37
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Shadin posted:It's okay, you don't have to lie. My thread is becoming the new Death Thread, even though this is the best year for Specialist Games in the last twenty years. Good job, Goons. I also think it's true that the properties in Specialist Games were some of the most-loved properties within the overall Games Workshop IP. While the overall level of playership is undoubtedly much smaller than the flagship lines like 40K (and even AoS now), people who played those games loved those games. I think as much as anything that's just a facet of having games that catered to certain segments of the player base's different niche desires. Necromunda and Mordheim scratched the "forge your narrative" itch, AT/TL/Epic (and to some extent Warmaster) scratched the "big fuckin' battles!" itch, Man-o'-War/Dreadfleet and BFG gave you naval combat, and BloodBowl and GorkaMorka were great, silly fun. There was something for everyone, so people could gravitate to the games they really enjoyed. The downside, of course, is that when you really enjoyed something, it's easy to get bent about it (in either direction, from being super excited that it's coming back to being super pissed that it's going to be different than you remember). It is also true, that in the past GW had a track record of creating a new Specialist Game, supporting the hell out of it for a year or two, and then dropping it like a rock, which left a lot of people burned. So while I agree that the current trend of SG is positive overall, I can certainly understand a healthy dose of skepticism on the part of people who have been around the block on this before. And I don't think it has to be either/or - you can be both super-stoked that your favorite Specialist Game is coming back and super-salty with how it's being re-released. That's not a contradiction at all, and I think the discussions this thread illustrate that pretty well.
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Nov 8, 2017 22:39
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For the people arguing that making models in 8mm sucks because they have a pile of 6mm models: would you prefer if GW just released a rulebook for a game and didn't produce any models? From what I read in the past few pages you don't want to have to buy more models so I presume if that was an option you would buy Epic2017 rulebook but no models? It's similar to the nerd-rage I've read elsewhere on Necromunda. It's terrible that they don't release every model for every faction on day 1, followed by complaints that if they don't release anything after day 1 it's dropping support and killing the game. It seems like there's a bunch of people who complain that GW don't re-release old games, complain if they update and release a new version and wouldn't buy a re-published copy of a game they bought 20 years ago. So why should GW give a poo poo what they want given that no matter what route they go down they won't be a customer buying the product from them? E:Sorry maybe to clarify, places like the Necromunda Worldwide group on FB have been horrible, I was only meaning this thread in the first paragraph. I read through the discussion on Epic/AT and couldn't really discern what people wanted GW to release from AT. There were people annoyed, maybe justifiably, that there was a scale change. And others saying they had older armies and they wouldn't buy a new one in a new scale. Fair enough, but I didn't see anyone say that if they released one in 6mm they would be buying a new army. Maybe they did and I missed in in the previous 50pages, or in a V1 of this thread. I'm probably just burned from those other groups where I saw people complain that Necromunda was being released, complain about every aspect of it and basically look like they would have much preferred to be able to spend another 20years complaining about GW not supporting a game they like instead. Alan G fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 22:41
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For serious, that kind of disingenuous mischaracterization is how we got seventy posts of nothing. E: 're nex0rmunda.su moths fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 22:44
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It depends on whether you're trying to sell books, sell miniatures, or grow your customer base. If you're trying to sell miniatures, you do exactly what GW is doing now, because it is fiendish genius and it has been proven to work. If you're trying to sell books, you make your game complicated, revise/rebalance it often, and put out tons of updates and errata in print medium that requires purchase (which is also exactly what GW is doing now, at least with 8th Ed 40K). If you are trying to grow your customer base, you work to keep the customers you have (by supporting the poo poo they care about and not invalidating their previous purchases) while at the same time reducing barriers-to-entry for new players (AoS, SWA, and the Start Collecting boxes are all great examples here). Three of those things (sell books, sell minis, attract new customers) are all things that the "new GW" is doing pretty well (hence the death of the Death Thread, GW is almost certainly making money hand-over-fist right now). The one area in which they fall short is in working to keep the customers they have. Re-release of beloved Specialist Games is no doubt an attempt at that, but it's one that's tempered by wanting to sell more miniatures. Ultimately, that's a financial/business decision - do you make more in volume than you lose from bad-will in the customer base? I suspect chances are good that they will come out ahead, but time will tell.
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Nov 8, 2017 23:09
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You aren't "keeping the customers you have" by letting people use 20 year-old models or catering to them. Those aren't "customers" in any sense that matters
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Nov 8, 2017 23:16
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TheChirurgeon posted:You aren't "keeping the customers you have" by letting people use 20 year-old models or catering to them. Those aren't "customers" in any sense that matters First, by not invalidating the purchases that a customer has already made, you build customer loyalty. And ultimately, this hobby is about buying poo poo you don't need. I had an entire Imperial Guard army. Did it stop me from buying Necrons when they got a Codex and a new model range? Nope, didn't even slow me down. And the real irony here is that the thing that kept me from buying more IG stuff was the way they hosed up the IG Codex in the jump from 4th to 5th - it didn't offer nearly as much flexibility or as many interesting options, so my grand designs of doing a drop-grenadier regiment went into the dumpster before I was able to buy a bunch of poo poo (that let's face it, would probably sit on a shelf anyway, but GW would have gotten their cash). As for not buying new models, do you know anybody who plays 'hams who can spend hours at a time in their FLGS and not walk out with the semi-regular impulse buy? I don't. On a related note, I know lots of people who already had an army and essentially bought the same army over again, simply because they liked the new sculpts better. Hell, I've done it, if not for an entire army then at least for certain units. To claim that people who already have minis won't buy more minis even if they can still use the minis they have is to ignore the psychological forces at work in "the hobby." Second, much of the success of a game comes from having people to play with/against. By not alienating long-time customers, you support communities, which in turn convinces new players to jump in. If all the old Specialist Games grognards came out of the woodwork with their old models on day one of a given game's re-release (and they would, because nostalgia is a hell of a drug), it's infinitely more likely that new people would buy in because they'd know that there was already a community of players. So keeping old customers helps directly attract new ones. And as an addendum to that, long-time customers breed multi-generational relationships with companies. There are lots of old 'hams who end up getting their kids involved. I know one who bought and painted an entire Necron army for one son and a Dark Eldar army for the other. Anything the company can do to foster that relationship (i.e. by keeping the grog "in the fold" for as long as possible) will lead to more sales down the road. Finally, consumer satisfaction studies have shown that on average a customer will tell two people about a good experience with a company, but will tell seven people about a bad experience. I know I've waved newbies off 40K with dire warnings of high cost, frequently invalidated rules/minis, and poor game balance. But then again, I've also recommended the new BloodBowl to people, so it depends on your overall hobby experiences. Ilor fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 23:42
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20 year old 6mm sculpts would look like rear end compared to what could be done with modern tools and techniques, even if you kept the scale the same. The same way 2nd Edition Marines look compared to last year’s DeathWatch releases, despite being roughly the same scale. The smaller epic stuff wasn’t exactly objects of jewel like wonder.
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Nov 8, 2017 23:43
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If GW really wanted my money they'd rerelease Inquisitor. 
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Nov 8, 2017 23:54
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Ilor posted:I disagree, for two reasons: There is still a death thread where this pedantic shittery can be hashed out. They could have stayed 6mm, they didn't and whinging about it is loving boring. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/08/necromunda-classic-stories-new-editions/ Necromunda books. Anything good there? I'm picking up the Jerico omnibus and the comics, because I remember Kal being fun.
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