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One possibly standpoint for slavery comparisons could well come from how ever since slavery was reluctantly outlawed in the US, lawmakers and the wealthy immediately started coming up with replacements for it, including sharecroppers, prison labour, and basically any other possible means to circumvent minimum wage, work safety and worker's rights of any kind. From the perspective of the business owners, it's meant to be the next best thing.
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Nov 9, 2017 08:14
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Sure thing, 5 yR Planovich.
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Nov 9, 2017 08:27
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Playstation 4 posted:Sure thing, 5 yR Planovich. Thank you, sentient Playstation 4 gaming system.
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Nov 9, 2017 09:59
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Inescapable Duck posted:One possibly standpoint for slavery comparisons could well come from how ever since slavery was reluctantly outlawed in the US, lawmakers and the wealthy immediately started coming up with replacements for it, including sharecroppers, prison labour, and basically any other possible means to circumvent minimum wage, work safety and worker's rights of any kind. From the perspective of the business owners, it's meant to be the next best thing. this is why i call prison labor slavery. with the way minorities are shunted into prisons despite their innocence or the lack of severity of their crimes, it's p obvious that it's just a continuation of the slavery of old.
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Nov 9, 2017 10:24
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That poor kid, man. My only hope is that seeing Gillespie lose causes enough of a psychological disturbance that he begins to further question the ideology he's been raised in. Some day, kid... you'll be free. Or you won't be. 
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Nov 9, 2017 13:16
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Condiv posted:this is why i call prison labor slavery. with the way minorities are shunted into prisons despite their innocence or the lack of severity of their crimes, it's p obvious that it's just a continuation of the slavery of old. Prison labor is racist, because the judicial system is racist. It's slavery because they're forced to work and given nothing or a pittance, which would exist outside of the racism of the system. The intent of modern prison labor is to fund the prison and be punitive to the prisoners, both right-wing goals.
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Nov 9, 2017 13:25
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Chilichimp posted:Prison labor is racist, because the judicial system is racist. The slavery exists outside that racism, but the racism of the system feeding into prison and its results make it clear that prison labor is a continuation of the slavery of old, not something wholly new and distinct. It has some differences from the plantation slavery of old, but it's very clearly a continuation of that system and should've been done away with long ago
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Nov 9, 2017 13:59
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Condiv posted:The slavery exists outside that racism, but the racism of the system feeding into prison and its results make it clear that prison labor is a continuation of the slavery of old, not something wholly new and distinct. It has some differences from the plantation slavery of old, but it's very clearly a continuation of that system and should've been done away with long ago Chattel slavery wasn't punitive, they were considered loving property. They didn't punish their mules by having them tow plows, likewise they didn't see whipping blacks to pick cotton faster was a punishment. Writers of the time literally wrote about bondage as being what's "best" for "the negro race". "Their natural state" and poo poo. It's the height of disgusting. In prison labor, the mantra is "good, they deserve this for their crimes". "Why should we have to pay to put them up in prison hotels where they can read and watch TV all day and get ripped in the prison yard?" The motivation for the slavery is entirely different. It's all bullshit and dehumanizing, but to the point of chattel slavery? It's maybe a successor, but a continuation? Nah, son. And I'm not trying to say "it's fine", it's not. We need the democratic party to end prison labor, or legislate fair-market compensation for VOLUNTARY prison labor. And none of this, deduct wages for their loving bolonga sandwiches and "lodging" fees. Pay them.
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Nov 9, 2017 14:10
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Inescapable Duck posted:One possibly standpoint for slavery comparisons could well come from how ever since slavery was reluctantly outlawed in the US, lawmakers and the wealthy immediately started coming up with replacements for it, including sharecroppers, prison labour, and basically any other possible means to circumvent minimum wage, work safety and worker's rights of any kind. From the perspective of the business owners, it's meant to be the next best thing. The thirteenth was made especially for recently free slaves and it was less of about capitalism and more about specific oppression of black folks. Poll taxes to limit our vote, the police force born out of ex slave catchers. The entire system in the United States is poisoned with racism which would happen no matter its economic model. Comparing the horrors of chattel slavery to late stage capitalism and its effects on modern society is dumb so don't do it. It minimizes slaverys lasting impact on the black populace and uses a caricature of that suffering to score political points. Why not instead use your own suffering for your politics instead of the pain of others?
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Nov 9, 2017 15:10
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While there are some examples that blur the distinction between labor under capitalism and slavery (sharecropping, prison labor), I'm uncomfortable declaring that all wage labor is slavery because its implications run a little close to the idea that no one has any positive social obligation, and at that point we're basically libertarians.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:15
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Democrazy posted:While there are some examples that blur the distinction between labor under capitalism and slavery (sharecropping, prison labor), I'm uncomfortable declaring that all wage labor is slavery because its implications run a little close to the idea that no one has any positive social obligation, and at that point we're basically libertarians. Are you claiming work is a positive social obligation?
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Nov 9, 2017 15:27
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WampaLord posted:Are you claiming work is a positive social obligation? In that it requires action to fulfill, yes.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:30
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WampaLord posted:Are you claiming work is a positive social obligation? Man I swear it's like y'all do this poo poo on purpose.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:33
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If you replaced Gulags with the Red Army it would be pretty accurate.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:36
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Fluffdaddy posted:Man I swear it's like y'all do this poo poo on purpose. I don't know what I did, but the idea that work is a good thing is really terrible. It reeks of Protestant Work Ethic nonsense. Ideally we should be reducing the amount of work we do. I didn't realize this was a controversial stance to take.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:37
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Democrazy posted:While there are some examples that blur the distinction between labor under capitalism and slavery (sharecropping, prison labor), I'm uncomfortable declaring that all wage labor is slavery because its implications run a little close to the idea that no one has any positive social obligation, and at that point we're basically libertarians. Uh... I'm confused here, you understand that wage labor is a subset of labor, yes? How does "extreme exploitation of labor is bad" turn into "nobody work, let society collapse, wheeeeee!" in your mind?
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Nov 9, 2017 15:38
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WampaLord posted:Are you claiming work is a positive social obligation? I mean the problem with work is that it’s done without fair compensation (I.e. the owner doesn’t contribute as much as they’re taking out and the power is unequal) and that we make the poorest and most vulnerable do the worst work for the least pay, or starve them because they have no work to do. Work isn’t necessarily inherently bad, insofar as it is still necessary for work to happen for society to function at present. It’s the inequality and undemocratic nature of who does the work versus who gets rewarded for it that is the problem. Characterizing work as having positive moral value in and of itself is dumb though. Work doesn’t have positive or negative value. It’s just a thing that needs to be done, until such a time that we don’t need most people to spend their time doing it in favor of automation.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:40
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Work, creation, the battle against entropy is good, having to do so to exist when we have the means to end that requirement is immoral.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:42
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Fulfilling work is actually good and an important aspect of life.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:42
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The Kingfish posted:Fulfilling work is actually good and an important aspect of life. Maybe, but it won’t matter when automation reaches critical mass. There’s nothing stopping people from choosing to do something they enjoy (I.e. work on cars) versus being required to do it to not die from lack of food or shelter, however.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:44
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I was not using "positive" in the moral sense.BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Uh... I'm confused here, you understand that wage labor is a subset of labor, yes? How does "extreme exploitation of labor is bad" turn into "nobody work, let society collapse, wheeeeee!" in your mind? Wage labor refers to any system in which labor sells their labor for a wage. It makes me uncomfortable to declare that slavery in all forms, because then we stray into the idea that no one can owe anything to society without it being slavery, which is the same basic premise that libertarians use to claim that universal healthcare is slavery for doctors. We may rightly disagree on the terms in which people fulfill their obligation of work, but to say that people having a social obligation to work is slavery has bad implications for a collective society.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:48
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The Kingfish posted:Fulfilling work is actually good and an important aspect of life. I bet you have a high paying cushy office job, yea? I'd love to see you say this to the CNA who just got off a 12 hour shift wiping asses, or the fast food worker who's barely making ends meet, or the call center employee who's ready to blow their brains out after being yelled at for the umpteenth time that day. Lightning Knight posted:There’s nothing stopping people from choosing to do something they enjoy (I.e. work on cars) versus being required to do it to not die from lack of food or shelter, however. Exactly. If "work" is so important to life (which is a whole different argument honestly), then let people choose their own way to do it and not be forced into doing loving awful poo poo for terrible wages. E: VVV I don't know what to tell you, I'm not trying to be difficult here but all I'm doing is responding to what people are saying. If The Kingfish actually meant something else, he's free to clarify himself. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 15:49
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WampaLord posted:I bet you have a high paying cushy office job, yea? He didn't say that at all. Again this is what I meant about doing this poo poo on purpose. Taking something someone says and creating a bullshit narrative out of it so you can be self righteous
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Nov 9, 2017 15:56
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Yeah, there is an argument to have a purpose in life, who let's be honest many (most?) jobs out there don't fulfill that criteria.
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Nov 9, 2017 15:59
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Fluffdaddy posted:He didn't say that at all. Again this is what I meant about doing this poo poo on purpose. Taking something someone says and creating a bullshit narrative out of it so you can be self righteous It's the cancer that killed D&D. But it's also kind of fun sometimes. That's right, I THINK CANCER IS FUN. GO CANCER Fulfillment can be sought in many ways. Some people want to create art. Some people want to fix mechanical things. Some people want to invent new mechanical things. Some people just want to cry and masturbate. We should use the power of automation to meet everyone's basic, essential needs so they can seek this fulfillment.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:00
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Democrazy posted:Wage labor refers to any system in which labor sells their labor for a wage. It makes me uncomfortable to declare that slavery in all forms, because then we stray into the idea that no one can owe anything to society without it being slavery I really don't see how that follows, at all. Obligation to produce is not the same as an obligation to receive less than the value of your productivity so that a fraction of society can profit. Democrazy posted:but to say that people having a social obligation to work is slavery has bad implications for a collective society. I agree with that.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:06
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https://twitter.com/RoseAnnDeMoro/status/928411303135215621
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Nov 9, 2017 16:10
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Nov 9, 2017 16:11
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lol, gently caress you.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:12
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No exaggeration, that interview is as open and tacit an admission of undermining our democracy as that Koch affiliate threatening to cut off the Republican party from the 'Dallas piggy bank'. And gently caress MSNBC.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:14
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Office Pig posted:No exaggeration, that interview is as open and tacit an admission of undermining our democracy as that Koch affiliate threatening to cut off the Republican party from the 'Dallas piggy bank'. And gently caress MSNBC. No I hope they do it more, we can use this in the class war that people only just seem to be waking up to.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:17
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He really really would be more happy at home with the Republicans, I seriously can't understand. Just lol "we should be the party of business" what the gently caress does that mean.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:22
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, there is an argument to have a purpose in life, who let's be honest many (most?) jobs out there don't fulfill that criteria. It's easy to fufill, but once hosed up nearly impossible to get back. The currently dominate management strategies gently caress it up immediately and as severely as possible.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:22
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"Could you say that a little louder into the microphone sir, we want to make sure the taxpayers can hear it."
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Nov 9, 2017 16:22
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Once again when asked to choose between fiscal conservatism and social leftism, they choose fiscal conservatism. It's not even like there's any huge movement to take all this guy's money, just a general feeling that the working class is getting screwed while congress is currently debating how much of a tax cut to give that guy at everyone else's expense. These people are the rot of the party and their money is poison.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:25
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Filipino Freakout posted:He really really would be more happy at home with the Republicans, I seriously can't understand. Just lol "we should be the party of business" what the gently caress does that mean. Well, first, it's probably a lot harder to be the big man in the room when a whole bunch of other rich people are there. Also, he might be... socially liberal. Rich people are human and imperfect, like the rest of us. They put their pants on one leg at a time, sometimes with the help of a servant.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:25
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"Socially liberal" is just an excuse not to get lumped in with open bigots. He's a garbage ally to the socially disadvantaged if he totally abandons those principles the second it looks like his taxes may go up.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:27
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Just remember if you ever find yourself saying "we need to be moderate, we need to reach out to the center" you're agreeing with that guy and helping him keep his billions of dollars he earned all by himself with hard work and sweat and other fluids.
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Nov 9, 2017 16:35
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Chilichimp posted:Chattel slavery wasn't punitive, they were considered loving property. They didn't punish their mules by having them tow plows, likewise they didn't see whipping blacks to pick cotton faster was a punishment. Writers of the time literally wrote about bondage as being what's "best" for "the negro race". "Their natural state" and poo poo. It's the height of disgusting. yes, you've latched onto one of the surface level differences. congratulations! racists have been using this surface level difference as an excuse for why prison labor is not a continuation of chattel slavery quote:In prison labor, the mantra is "good, they deserve this for their crimes". "Why should we have to pay to put them up in prison hotels where they can read and watch TV all day and get ripped in the prison yard?" The motivation for the slavery is entirely different. no, it's not at all. the motivation is the same as chattel slavery, the implementation is slightly different, but the motivation is still to oppress black people, to steal what wealth they have, to profit of their lives, and to keep them under white rule. and prison labor and the US penal system has been adjusted to do that very well. hell, there are prisons that had literal plantation labor, there are prison programs sending people to work at extremely dangerous factories as "rehabilitation", etc. it's the same motivation implemented through a system with surface level differences. quote:It's all bullshit and dehumanizing, but to the point of chattel slavery? It's maybe a successor, but a continuation? Nah, son. And I'm not trying to say "it's fine", it's not. We need the democratic party to end prison labor, or legislate fair-market compensation for VOLUNTARY prison labor. And none of this, deduct wages for their loving bolonga sandwiches and "lodging" fees. Pay them. what's the difference between a successor and a continuation for you?
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Nov 9, 2017 16:35
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If you wanna talk about work and praise idleness, I really recommend reading Hannah Arendt's The Human Condition, which is fairly accessible and gives a helpful set of tools for discussing work. What we're really talking about ending is, in Arendt's classification, labour, which is work that is done to purely satisfy existential requirements. It is not fulfilling nor a raison d'etre, and it should not be, and we should get rid of it if we possibly can. On the other hand, I suspect people who believe work is necessary for actualization and society are more thinking about action, but it's important not to confuse these with each other. (Unless you think toiling is some kind of necessity because it "builds character" or somesuch nonsense.)
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