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i'm joining the posadists except not as a joke
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Nov 10, 2017 13:40
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i'm LITERALLY uplifting dolphins i'm LITERALLY cloning trotsky after the nukes fall
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Nov 10, 2017 13:41
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I want to make a sorta soft defense for pointing out the ongoing crimes of capitalism when someone comes at you about the USSR or PRC or whatever about anything. Yeah, it can look like "whataboutism" but the thing is, I am in this socialism game because capitalism is loving awful and needs a humane replacement. If someone is going to tell me my desired replacement is bad because of past historical crimes, then they can either defend the status quo or come up with an alternative. If they don't recognize that the status quo is broken, it's not a serious conversation.
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Nov 10, 2017 14:07
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if someone steps to you about the ussr or the prc ask them why they're confusing communism with state capitalism
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Nov 10, 2017 14:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbuImlQ7be8
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Nov 10, 2017 14:27
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lmao
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Nov 10, 2017 14:29
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the trick to avoiding this debate is to launch a pre-emptive strike on anyone who defends capitalism
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Nov 10, 2017 14:30
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Add this to victims of capitalism along with millions of others over the centuries. https://twitter.com/broadly/status/928962949200433157
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Nov 10, 2017 15:30
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The last year has taught me something important: Democrats and Republicans can really come together on not knowing that the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and Russia is not Communist.
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Nov 10, 2017 15:58
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The correct tact to take is that it's silly to blame socialists in the united states for the abuses of another country. Generally people respond well to just talking about how you want to make things better for humanity. Be sincere and honest. Be self aware do not get into a pissing contest about WELL ACTUALLY THIS MANY PEOPLE DIED UNDER CAPITALISM AND Iv p much converted my department to democratic socialism by pointing out things that have affected them personally. whenever the TPUSA people throw a fit I just point out that they don't actually have any agenda or policy; they are just trolling for attention.
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Nov 10, 2017 15:59
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please tell me you ask them to keep their diaper clean when they are throwing a fit
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Nov 10, 2017 16:01
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Zikan posted:please tell me you ask them to keep their diaper clean when they are throwing a fit that whole diaper thing p much turned them into a joke on every campus in america. they get so loving mad when you bring it up lmao
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Nov 10, 2017 16:03
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R. Guyovich posted:whatever you do the best way to respond is by confirming all the noxious anticommunist propaganda is true but then saying none of that matters because we're gonna start from scratch and never have any problems yeah stalin was a paranoid guy who killed tens of millions of people for absolutely no reason but that's only because he was Georgian, here in America we can implement socialism without asiatic barbarism
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Nov 10, 2017 16:18
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if converting conservatives to left-wing politics was impossible i wouldn't be here. thanks trump and at least some of the people i know are sensible enough that, as brutalist said, you can at least drag them down to being more sympathetic if not full on supporters rudatron posted:[*]None of that matters to the matters to the people who push hardest on this stuff, because they're more often than not nazi sympathizers. They're actually totally okay with mass killings and death, but only if they're done against religious or racial minorities. It's a straight road from holocaust denial -> blaming jews for katynn or whatever. on the one hand, most of the people ive seen throw this out aren't really fascists, but on the other it's real funny how fast a lot of those people will defend fascists at the drop of a hat- my favorite was someone screaming about that DSA army officer pivoting to defending that pic of marine snipers with an SS banner at the drop of a hat
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Nov 10, 2017 16:19
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:yeah stalin was a paranoid guy who killed tens of millions of people for absolutely no reason but that's only because he was Georgian, here in America we can implement socialism without asiatic barbarism oh poo poo stalin was one of my people?
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Nov 10, 2017 16:19
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Serf posted:oh poo poo stalin was one of my people? i don't know, are you one of stalin's people? a tankie perhaps? *breaks out calipers*
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Nov 10, 2017 16:21
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oh hey 100+ new posts in the dsa thread
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Nov 10, 2017 16:25
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protip: conservatives, while they may hold their beliefs simply due to being raised or immersed in a conservative environment/propaganda they are still responsible for their views, words, and conduct and should be held accountable for it that means you can still rehabilitate conservatives, they just gotta acknowledge that they themselves were, at one point, pieces of poo poo with disgusting views oh lol nope that's never gonna happen
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Nov 10, 2017 16:27
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Nov 10, 2017 16:27
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Phi230 posted:protip: conservatives, while they may hold their beliefs simply due to being raised or immersed in a conservative environment/propaganda they are still responsible for their views, words, and conduct and should be held accountable for it prison abolition ho
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Nov 10, 2017 16:28
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StashAugustine posted:prison abolition ho don't need prisons if you have guillotines
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Nov 10, 2017 16:29
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nobody argues for capitalism in good faith, or as another poster put it "acknowledge that the status quo is broken" so the best way to argue is just say capitalism kills more people than even your bullshit statistic
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Nov 10, 2017 16:33
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Ace of Baes posted:Yeah theyre not a majority though america is rotten to the core and even those liberals with good intentions are so loving deep into american/capitalist bullshit that no amount of arguing will ever change them they gotta see it for themselves, and as long as politics, especially liberal politics, is a bourgeois phenomenon they'll never see it for themselves
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Nov 10, 2017 16:38
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Venom Snake posted:The correct tact to take is that it's silly to blame socialists in the united states for the abuses of another country. Generally people respond well to just talking about how you want to make things better for humanity. Be sincere and honest. Be self aware do not get into a pissing contest about WELL ACTUALLY THIS MANY PEOPLE DIED UNDER CAPITALISM AND
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Nov 10, 2017 16:45
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The key to talking to anyone about politics is to try to drill down to find common ground to work from. Maybe they get that there's a problem but don't think socialism is viable, so you focus on successful trials of it. Maybe they want people to do well don't realize the barriers capitalism puts up against that, do focus on showing them those. Maybe they're like my old boss and you just keep going down to more and more basic concepts until you get to the bedrock where they think a certain portion of the population just deserve to die because they aren't useful enough, and mutual understanding becomes impossible. But that last kind is pretty rare in my experience.
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Nov 10, 2017 16:50
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One can fully acknowledge the failures of the USSR and other communist states without tossing out the founding ideology. The failure of Greek city states and the french revolution does not discredit democracy, as a good counter example.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:11
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Ace of Baes posted:you can turn a tcot into a nonvoter, you can turn a typical conservative into a Bernie supporter, you can turn a libertarian into a libertarian socialist, like Kevin garnet, anything is possible
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Nov 10, 2017 17:11
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I mean capitalism isn't only despicable because of sweat shops, because then we could simply legislate sweat shops out of existence and everyone is happy, right? Capitalism is fundamentally flawed. If you want to argue for social democracy just point to the Nordics.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:13
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White Rock posted:If you want to argue for social democracy just point to the Nordics.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:38
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Halloween Jack posted:I think it's also worth pointing out that at one point, ideas like public utilities and, like, fire departments were radical socialist ideals. Nobody actually wants to live in an anarcho-libertarian state where it's your neighbour's right to live on a plot of land that's coated in poo poo. "Let me tell you about a man named Licinius Crassus" is one of my favorite anti-privatization arguments.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:49
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everyone itt is worried about rehabilitating conservatives - i'm still trying to figure out how you rehabilitate democrats.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:55
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StashAugustine posted:prison abolition ho *lights the aboliton signal*
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Nov 10, 2017 18:02
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Impermanent posted:everyone itt is worried about rehabilitating conservatives - i'm still trying to figure out how you rehabilitate democrats. My method is universal 
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Nov 10, 2017 18:02
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since joining the DSA I've made it a point to try and reach out sincerely to people in my life and it's not nearly as much of a brick wall as some of you make it out to be I mean, sure, some people (mostly boomers) have had their brains melted by a lifetime of capitalist propaganda but you're not going to reach them anyway. Are there a lot of young people living in white suburbs posting here? Or in like deeply conservative rural America? Or are you guys just arguing with other Extremely Online people? Halloween Jack posted:I think it's also worth pointing out that at one point, ideas like public utilities and, like, fire departments were radical socialist ideals. Nobody actually wants to live in an anarcho-libertarian state where it's your neighbour's right to live on a plot of land that's coated in poo poo. my go to "this is what American socialism looks like" tactic is to talk about the Milwaukee sewer socialists. Suddenly socialism isn't some bloody-handed commie coming for your riding mower, it's some union guys with good ideas.
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Nov 10, 2017 18:03
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I grew up on a farm in a tiny town of like 2000 people in rural New York. I would not be surprised if literally every single person I know from home voted for Trump, and Romney before that. Yet somehow, someway, I've managed to get a handful of them to flip to full-on socialists and a whole lot more are sympathetic towards unions now/not nearly as cool with the Republican death cult. It's... it's almost like just about everyone making less than $500k/year is being hosed by capitalism one way or another and if you just point that out to them they can actually be easily convinced.
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Nov 10, 2017 18:15
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Impermanent posted:everyone itt is worried about rehabilitating conservatives - i'm still trying to figure out how you rehabilitate democrats. For my more intellectual friends with slightly wider attention spans, a condensed version of this argument tends to be intriguing. I even got some of them to watch that Zizek video with They Live
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Nov 10, 2017 18:16
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you e-hand them an e-book of settlers and tell them if they don't read it, they're part of the problem
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Nov 10, 2017 18:36
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oh, 100 million? where'd you hear that? robert conquest? you know he was an anti-communist for the british government right? boom, they're swayed
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Nov 10, 2017 18:37
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my strategy is to not know anythjng about any other country and just hate bosses. everyone can agree with me then
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Nov 10, 2017 18:42
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now that im getting pretty strong im thinking about expanding that praxis to arm wrestling strangers and if they lose they have to join the dsa
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Nov 10, 2017 18:44
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