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Soonmot posted:wasn't this the old free council, though? Like now it's more about the magic of community and shared culture instead of just SCIENCE!!! Yes. The big weakness of the modern Free Council is that they suffer the Geek Sicial Fallacies. We can't just ostracize the soul-stealing zombie guys! They vote consistently and are polite!
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Nov 12, 2017 21:16
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Tasoth posted:So I know they're working on CtL 2e, but is it going to be easily compatible with the splats already out? This question should have came to me sooner since I bought the CtL Bundle. I'm pretty sure they're making significant changes to how seemings and kiths work, so I wouldn't expect any rules to carry over.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:20
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Hostile V posted:Free Council: American wizards with guns. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/chronicles-of-darkness-dark-eras-2/posts/2018962 Wild West – Changeling/Mage
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Nov 12, 2017 21:37
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:
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Nov 12, 2017 22:34
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should be in the OP and this forum's software should support a rule engine to reply to any praise of free council with freecouncil.jpg.
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Pope Guilty posted:Are there really options for Seers when it comes to Pentacle mages other than "work toward either killing or recruiting"? A core part of their ideology is that magic belongs to the Exarchs and non-Seers are basically thieves and terrorists. People of diametrically opposed ideologies have made short-term alliances and under-the-table agreements before. Famously, Marcus Garvey, a Black Nationalist, reached out to Neo-Nazis and the Klan on the shared issue of repatriating African-Americans to Africa. In the Cold War, the US and the USSR would occasionally cooperate in dealing with third world nations that were trying to not be in either sphere of influence. And on a local level, street gangs, cartels, and law enforcement will have informal connections and agreements to keep the peace. A common enemy or shared interest is key in these, but I think the bigger element is that these situations are ones where neither side can decisively win, so they have to adapt to a situation where the other side, as loathsome as it is, is a part of the political environment, so you might as well adapt to them. It's not diplomacy, it's always short-term, informal, and with the understanding that the other side is the Enemy, but it approximates stability. Hypothetical example: poo poo's going down in Pentacle territory, and the Seers, through an intermediary or some other kind of signaling, indicate that they're going to look the other way. They could strike while the Pentacle's distracted, but the gains would probably be minimal and they'd be better served by the Pentacle quickly and quietly cleaning up the issue. Or an issue with a third party, like if Pentacle mage knows that the local werewolves are up to something stupid. Tipping off the Seers lets them know that, when the werewolves gently caress up, that it was the werewolves' doing and they'd both be ready to respond to it. Look to international diplomacy and spycraft (doesn't Demon have a bit about various non-hostile Demon-Angel interactions?) for more examples. Or sectarian conflicts, like The Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Israel--5 faiths contest ownership of it, so there's a 250 year old agreement on how they share that space, with a Muslim family holding the keys and a 200 year old ladder that nobody can touch because nobody is specifically given responsibility for it.
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Nov 12, 2017 22:45
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To take from the sample Seer and quote in the corebook:quote:Here’s the truth: Humanity is oppressed, no matter what happens. You live in the Fallen World, but it will not move for you. You see the Lie, but you’ll always live in it. You cannot beat the Exarchs. You can’t even truly fight them. The best you can manage is a vague and persistent resistance. The Diamond does not tolerate dissent or disloyalty, and the Free Council tolerates nothing else. We are no different than the “Atlanteans,” save that we serve the divine beings who are demonstrably at the helm of the universe rather than old wizards fighting a war lost before Plato first wrote down the name of some made-up island. Seers don't see themselves as 'fighting' a war most of the time. They're just caretakers and rulers of the status quo. Take that example Seer, the architect with a five-year plan to wreck and then gentrify a neighbourhood. How exactly do you 'fight' him? Like, yeah, you could kill him if you knew he was even a Seer and doing something. He's not even, at that stage, doing anything that other mages might not do for their own ends. Seer projects most of the time aren't even that different from Pentacle projects, except that theoretically on the whole Seers make the world a harder place to Awaken in, for the masses and the Pentacle tries to make it easier for the worthy. For the Guardians, these aren't even incompatible goals, though the philosophy is very different. bewilderment fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Nov 12, 2017 |
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Nov 12, 2017 22:59
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Yeah, this isn't like, two forces having pitched fights against one another. This isn't two medieval armies clashing. It's Magical Class War.
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Nov 12, 2017 23:05
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Yeah, the Pentacle and the Seers aren't really going to fight most of the time. It's only when Big Papa Exarch decides to gently caress things up or they're competing over something that they're going to clash and, even then, probably not lethally. Having that knowledge honestly makes games much, much more fun to do, and much easier, since you have reason for players to actually interact with these things, rather than just shoot to kill without any discussion. And, as has been stated, your average Seer's plots aren't usually going to be that much worse than what people do anyway. They're killers of hope, but humanity usually doesn't need much more than a nudge. They might be vicious slime balls, but there's lots of vicious slime balls. Do you really want to waste your time fighting this one in particular? Yawgmoth posted:Goddamnit I was hunting for that image forever. What book is it in? Legacies: The Sublime, page 122, under the Transhuman Engineers.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:11
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Axelgear posted:Legacies: The Sublime, page 122, under the Transhuman Engineers. The Transhuman engineers are the most disappointing legacy I have ever read. Their one-line pitch is awesome! "Combine magic and technology to create superscience wizards" is a great concept for anything. But then you look at what they can do and it's poo poo like "Hear wifi" and "be a battery" Also: Silver Ladder is objectively correct
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Nov 13, 2017 21:15
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Xinder posted:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/chronicles-of-darkness-dark-eras-2/posts/2018962 Didn't see this update. Scandinavian Witch Trials (1450-1750) – Mummy /Geist Wild West – Changeling/Mage Empire of Mali – Hunter/Demon I know nothing about the first one, but the latter two look interesting. The Wild West could pretty much have its own book though since so many splats could fit into it.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:11
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still mad that the golden age of islam got loving beast/vampire
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Nov 13, 2017 22:13
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Xelkelvos posted:Didn't see this update. I started looking up stuff about the first one when I saw the update a couple days ago. Found such exciting information as "On the top of Lydhorn mountain Satan's Christmas party was celebrated with dance and drink, after which the witches flew back to Finnmark, except for Kirsti, who had visited Bergen and then took the long way home by sea." "Ingeborg confessed to transforming herself into a cat and travelling to Kiberg, where she and Maren and Sigri had broken into a basement and got drunk on wine with Satan" "the witches had arrived in the shapes of dogs and cats to drink and dance with Satan, who appeared in the shape of a black dog. When Margrette Jonsdotter danced with him, she had lost her shoe, but Satan had given her a new one." Mummy/Geist seems like a weird fit tbh. I'm interested in seeing what comes of this. Mors Rattus posted:still mad that the golden age of islam got loving beast/vampire i'd be fine with it if it was hunter/vampire instead. hopefully the beast stuff isn't too entrenched in it so i can just use the vampire stuff on its own.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:22
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Kaza42 posted:The Transhuman engineers are the most disappointing legacy I have ever read. Their one-line pitch is awesome! "Combine magic and technology to create superscience wizards" is a great concept for anything. But then you look at what they can do and it's poo poo like "Hear wifi" and "be a battery" "Combine magic and science" honestly bugs me a little. Supernal magic operates off of symbolism, not physical reality. Trying to make magitech just seems like an attempt to get around the rules, while trying to use understanding of the world to create new metaphors for Higher Truth is something the Mysterium and Council are both deep into. It seems... Redundant, for a Legacy.
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Nov 14, 2017 01:34
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Axelgear posted:"Combine magic and science" honestly bugs me a little. Supernal magic operates off of symbolism, not physical reality. Trying to make magitech just seems like an attempt to get around the rules, while trying to use understanding of the world to create new metaphors for Higher Truth is something the Mysterium and Council are both deep into. It seems... Redundant, for a Legacy. I mean, if that's how the universe works (which it absolutely is in Mage) then the Legacy is wrong about it, but if you take modern humans and give them magic, eventually you'll Awaken a scientist who will sit down and say "Okay, this symbolism stuff is obviously wrong, let's figure out the laws of physics of magic" and will create something very similar to what the Transhuman Engineers should have been. Again, they'll be wrong, but they don't know that so that won't stop them making some progress towards that impossible goal and having legacy powers.
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Nov 14, 2017 02:03
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Xinder posted:i'd be fine with it if it was hunter/vampire instead. hopefully the beast stuff isn't too entrenched in it so i can just use the vampire stuff on its own. It really depends on who's in charge of the Beast stuff now.
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Nov 14, 2017 02:08
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Kaza42 posted:I mean, if that's how the universe works (which it absolutely is in Mage) then the Legacy is wrong about it, but if you take modern humans and give them magic, eventually you'll Awaken a scientist who will sit down and say "Okay, this symbolism stuff is obviously wrong, let's figure out the laws of physics of magic" and will create something very similar to what the Transhuman Engineers should have been. Again, they'll be wrong, but they don't know that so that won't stop them making some progress towards that impossible goal and having legacy powers. (I'm looking very flatly in Ironslave's direction and he absolutely knows why.) It's not people being "wrong" that I have a problem with; it's people being uninteresting. Being wrong is only a sin if you're dull as a result of it, at least in a tabletop game, though I'd say Mages are rarely going to quite make this mistake. Awakening to symbolism is kind of how they come about. Every other Legacy seems to be about looking at some specific Thing in all its Thingness and going "That Thing's Thingness is the most amazing Thingness I've ever seen" and having a life-changing, soul-shaping Legacy, but the Transhuman Engineers seem to be grown out of a really shallow reading of the setting.
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Nov 14, 2017 02:12
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Axelgear posted:(I'm looking very flatly in Ironslave's direction and he absolutely knows why.) I mean, plenty of people get that same sort of transcendent feeling out of regular actual science. Mage is all about exploring Mysteries, so I find the idea of a scientist finding Truth on a deeper level than ever possible before to be super interesting. Maybe I'm biased, but I just cannot imagine me ever getting any sort of magic or superpowers and not going "Awesome! Now to figure out exactly how this works and discover repeatable laws and properties about it" and be the happiest guy ever
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Nov 14, 2017 02:17
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Yeah, I'm quite familiar with the sensation. It's just that... Mages are already natural investigators and scientists; it is their schtick. They seek out facts and build models from them pretty much instinctively. Mage magic isn't superpowers; it is your insight into the higher laws that shape reality and then making them dance to your will. That's why it feels weird to have a Legacy dedicated to science (though I dispute that engineering and science are synonymous; they are fairly distinct): It is basically a Legacy dedicated to being a Mage. Where is the particular unique sublime experience in something that is already common to all Awakened?
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Nov 14, 2017 02:40
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Kurieg posted:It really depends on who's in charge of the Beast stuff now. I can see future Beast stuff being written better, but with the base Beast book being so bad I have a hard time seeing myself buying it and utilizing it as a resource.
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Nov 14, 2017 02:40
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Axelgear posted:(I'm looking very flatly in Ironslave's direction and he absolutely knows why.)
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Nov 14, 2017 02:43
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Mors Rattus posted:still mad that the golden age of islam got loving beast/vampire How the hell was that not Mage / Hunter?!
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Nov 14, 2017 02:52
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Kurieg posted:It really depends on who's in charge of the Beast stuff now. Ideally, whoever's in charge of Beast just chucks it in the trash where it belongs.
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Nov 14, 2017 03:20
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Xinder posted:I can see future Beast stuff being written better, but with the base Beast book being so bad I have a hard time seeing myself buying it and utilizing it as a resource. Yeah, don't build a house on a foundation of sand. Beast's problems are beyond the layout and thematic confusion of the Awakening 1e core, which could be cleaned up with interesting supplement material to yield a good game. Without demolishing and entirely reenvisioning the game, the best Beast supplementary material can aspire to is to be inoffensive and skirtable.
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Nov 14, 2017 03:23
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With Matt McFarland out of the picture it should be a lot easier to fix the poo poo out of Beast, but the question becomes whether it's worth the effort.
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Nov 14, 2017 03:29
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See, I think the Transhuman Engineers have a thread of a good idea - make them a Legacy that is about the cultural and conceptual space of transhumanism. Not 'we can science up this magic!' but 'transhumanism is an expression of aching desire to transcend the physical and attain immortality and vast understanding.' Immediately you have a symbolic register, Arcana (Forces + Life to be an immortal robot god, it leads into non-Reaper but fragile lichdom), and a basic failing for plot hooks: It's the 'white guys get to have even better lives!' concept, but applied to the tiny handful of mages that take up the Legacy. Of course, they see themselves as heroes fighting for humanity, but the only good they seem to do is for themselves. Maybe one can apply this ethos to helping humanity at large! But there's a clear tendency for self-involved tinkering. Of course, the Free Council Science! Legacy I've put in a game I'm running is NASA-themed, and focus on the cultural uplift of space exploration. They're somewhat parochially American, but their basic idea is that the attainment of space flight symbolically mirrors the desire to Awaken, and by encouraging people to have hope and wonder at the outer limits of technological possibility, techno-utopianism will inspire people to Awaken and to demand more of the world. They're very much Trekkies. Their Legacy focuses on producing beyond-cutting-edge technology that plays to science-fiction fantasies, drawing on that vast pent-up human need for wonder. They call themselves 'Void Engineers' and they will probably all die when paradox makes their space station explode, but they're trying.
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Nov 14, 2017 04:06
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Are there any good pre-written modules for nMage 2e? I might be running a game for total newbies over Thanksgiving weekend and would rather spend the time making sure I have the new rules down (I haven’t played 2e) than putting together an adventure. Something short that can be played in an afternoon would be great.
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Nov 14, 2017 04:18
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blastron posted:Are there any good pre-written modules for nMage 2e? I might be running a game for total newbies over Thanksgiving weekend and would rather spend the time making sure I have the new rules down (I haven’t played 2e) than putting together an adventure. You could theoretically probably adapt the Mage 1e quickstart? Otherwise just throw some weird situation at the characters and improvise like hell. Possible scenario: Players go to a remote location (small town, cabin, etc) where access to helpful other mages is limited. Tell players "you've been sent here because you've heard of [weird happenings]" going on in the area. Then just have Your Favourite Horror Movie happen in the area. Bam, plot. This also works for most gamelines! Hunter especially, but it works for Mage because of their info-gathering skills and obsession with chasing down danger, while still being (as starting characters) vulnerable themselves.
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Nov 14, 2017 05:56
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Everything about Beast after the core book has put them in a much harsher light. Either they are flat out villians to victims of their own hosed up way of existing. Other lines have been pretty damning of Beasts.
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Nov 14, 2017 07:47
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Gumball Gumption posted:Everything about Beast after the core book has put them in a much harsher light. Either they are flat out villians to victims of their own hosed up way of existing. Other lines have been pretty damning of Beasts. But is the setting really lacking for 'I prey on people and lie to myself about it' characters without them? Which has always been the problem (besides the abuse apologia). They're just kinda tacked on. They don't really do anything special or interesting in and of themselves besides reveal that the guy writing them had issues.
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Nov 14, 2017 07:49
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bewilderment posted:You could theoretically probably adapt the Mage 1e quickstart? I’m mostly interested in having access to a big pile of stat blocks that I can grab for the NPCs and monsters. I actually haven’t GMed nWoD before at all so I’m not confident enough to just kind of wing stats on the fly and I don’t have enough prep time to build out a bunch of stat blocks in advance. If I were going to roll my own one-shot, though, it would 100% be a heist in a remote location.
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Nov 14, 2017 09:08
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blastron posted:I’m mostly interested in having access to a big pile of stat blocks that I can grab for the NPCs and monsters. I actually haven’t GMed nWoD before at all so I’m not confident enough to just kind of wing stats on the fly and I don’t have enough prep time to build out a bunch of stat blocks in advance. If you assume NPCs roll 2 dice for things they're not skilled in, 4 dice for thing's they're OK at and 6 dice for things they're great at, you're handled for pretty much most regular people. 7 health levels, 4 willpower points if it matters. The corebook has stats for some generic NPCs in it. Stats haven't changed so much that you can't use a generic antagonist book for some gamelines, although I wouldn't use any 1e supernatural splats as is (or at least, not mages). Spirits and general monsters are fine, though. So you can probably use the Werewolf Predators book, or the blue-book Antagonists and Spirits books.
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Nov 14, 2017 09:26
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Night10194 posted:But is the setting really lacking for 'I prey on people and lie to myself about it' characters without them? Even playing them is kind of hosed up when you look at the timeline of their characters. In all other lines there's theoretical "out" states where your characters could conceivably co-exist with what they are or somehow get better. Beast's end game states are all variants of "Nope, you are hosed forever. Also, if you're thinking you won't be creepy abuse apologia stand-ins at the end then I have bad news for you. In one or two possible scenario's that's all that'll be left!". Like I get that the WoD isn't big on happy endings. Or even neutral endings. But goddamn. Even Vampire has ways for you to not become a functionally unplayable monster if you're willing to put the work in to it. And Vampire is unarguably the originator of the whole "Beast I am lest a beast I become." thing. This is also setting aside the hilarious little lore tidbit that makes Beasts seem like the NWoD's version of hipsters. What with them pretentiously claiming to be the progenitors of literally every monster ever despite there being plenty of evidence otherwise. Honestly, given how it's derivative of themes that've been done better and how messed up it is i'd prefer they just let that particular line drop into obscurity. Archonex fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 10:05
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I feel like the serial abusers written by a serial abuser whose super power is making people love them in spite of their actions and whose most striking antagonist in the core book is a teenage girl that got attacked in her bedroom should maaaaaybe be forgotten quicker than first edition Geist was, yeah.
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Nov 14, 2017 10:08
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Long before the Beast draft was released, it never really seemed like a very good idea for a game. It doesn't have the strong connections to easily identifiable mythical creatures and doesn't draw on a body of existing pop culture works, and the one-line pitch is that you're playing monsters - which is already what the World of Darkness as a whole is about. Paring Beast down to its bare bones leaves you with a less thematically coherent or interesting Vampire.
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Nov 14, 2017 11:02
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Pope Guilty posted:With Matt McFarland out of the picture it should be a lot easier to fix the poo poo out of Beast, but the question becomes whether it's worth the effort. Short of releasing a revised corebook, I'm not sure it's even possible.
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Nov 14, 2017 12:57
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Xinder posted:Short of releasing a revised corebook, I'm not sure it's even possible. Yeah, and that's easier than ever in the modern era of PDF and PoD. But it still costs time and money that are probably best spent elsewhere.
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Nov 14, 2017 13:06
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Fixing Beast would require figuring out just what it's trying to be, because as it is it's trying to be three or four different things all at once and coming up short in all of them because of it.
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Nov 14, 2017 13:32
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I gave in and bought Mage 2E. What's Beast and why does it suck? And is the other thing being discussed splatbooks for two gamelines at once or am I misinterpreting that? Sorry, at work here or I could do more research on my own.
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Nov 14, 2017 13:47
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food court bailiff posted:I gave in and bought Mage 2E. The first one is kinda out of my league to talk about, but the latter is about the Dark Eras book, which is kinda a collection of different time periods to set your game in, with each one focusing on the influence of two splats,whilst the others get a brief mention of they are relevant. I think.
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Nov 14, 2017 14:21
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food court bailiff posted:I gave in and bought Mage 2E. Beast is a game where you play as magic people who have given up their souls to a monster because it's their calling, and they hurt people to teach them lessons so they should be grateful for it while the Beast feeds on their fear and suffering. Except that the original book was about how the Beasts are extremely good people for doing this. It's basically a long analogy for abuse except that it's about how great the abuser is. Didn't the guy who made it get outed as having abused a child himself?
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Nov 14, 2017 14:23
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