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Kurieg posted:I wonder if the person who wrote this thinks that "literally trying to drive her to suicide" means "Disagreeing with her and not immediately acquiescing to her because she is the ultimate authority on this issue and also a WOMAN." It's very common for bad actors to piggyback onto accusations to push their own agendas or so they can get their kicks harassing "legitimate" targets. A major issue in this whole mess has been people - in many cases willfully - conflating that behavior with the separate accusations in order to dismiss the all of it. I absolutely believe Lindroos is being harassed and threatened in the midst of this, and the people doing that can get hosed. But it's not by the people accusing Suleiman. Lindroos is explicitly conflating the assholes who are dogpiling in with the actual victims, and that's a huge problem. EDIT: To be more explicit, we shouldn't commit the same error. I do believe Lindroos and other GR employees who say they are being harassed. But that's a separate issue than their own decision to attack and dismiss victims while using that harassment as a cover. We don't have to minimize whatever is being done to them in order to call out their own harmful actions. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Nov 11, 2017 |
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Nov 11, 2017 22:17
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Comrade Gorbash posted:EDIT: To be more explicit, we shouldn't commit the same error. I do believe Lindroos and other GR employees who say they are being harassed. But that's a separate issue than their own decision to attack and dismiss victims while using that harassment as a cover. We don't have to minimize whatever is being done to them in order to call out their own harmful actions. I have no trouble believing that she is being harassed. But she keeps acting like she's the hero of this story and everyone else is the villain, as well as the apparent belief that her own past makes her immune from criticism. I am not, and have not been extolling her to commit suicide. I've been criticizing her absolutely miserable handling of this situation and her near rabid eagerness to attack victims.
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Nov 11, 2017 22:27
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I didn't say that you were harassing her. And absolutely we should call someone out for using that as a shield for their own lovely actions and intentionally conflating harassers and victims. But whether you intended it or not, the phrasing is dismissive of the idea that it's happening.
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Nov 11, 2017 22:45
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Comrade Gorbash posted:No, I think that the person who wrote this is probably 100% correct. Yeah, the best I can figure is that she's decided that the accusations becoming public was itself the problem, here. It's a bad loving take.
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Nov 12, 2017 00:24
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Plutonis posted:Saint Sebastian then! He seems like a nice straight guy. My patron saint is Saint Drogo, the Patron Saint of ugly people.
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Nov 12, 2017 00:33
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Kurieg posted:David Hill's Facebook. Honestly I’m a little surprised she came on my post to say what she did. All offenses aside, props to someone willing to walk that minefield. I’m not exactly known for coddling people I disagree with. I’m surprised enough that later, I’m going to sit down and respond to her in the most generous way I can. I’m traveling for the weekend, and this isn’t the kind of thing I want to type out on a phone. She’s not going to like it. At all. But I’m going to be direct and honest and try to stick to communicating relevant points as clearly as I can. And I won’t tolerate any shaming or abuse she or anyone else tried rebutting with. While she’s not engaged others in good faith, she appears to at least be trying to communicate with me in good faith. So I’ll give it a shot. I just haven’t had time to sit down and think it through. I didn’t think it was a bridge I had left to burn. So at least I can try to get it through to some people just what’s happened here. I don’t think I’m going to change her mind. But I’ve got nothing to lose in trying. And at very least it’ll stand as another example if it goes awry.
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Nov 12, 2017 03:35
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For what it's worth, Nicole Lindroos did apologize to Nikki Guerlain and seemed sincere. If she can avoid saying anything else lovely, GR might get out of this with some shred of their reputation intact.
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Nov 12, 2017 03:50
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MachineIV posted:Bunch of rambling. Okay. So, here's my trying to get through. For those so inclined. https://medium.com/@machineiv/to-green-ronin-f71044e13a6c
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Nov 12, 2017 14:21
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I missed this all this starting late October and just discovered it yesterday but drat if things haven't been moving fast as countless members or our industry have been accused, and so many more have either stood up for the victims or quickly defended thier cohorts. As someone I know was a victim years ago of someone who is finally getting his behavior discussed/condemned, I welcome this difficult time.
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Nov 12, 2017 17:37
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:I missed this all this starting late October and just discovered it yesterday but drat if things haven't been moving fast as countless members or our industry have been accused, and so many more have either stood up for the victims or quickly defended thier cohorts. Yeah, even if it makes people self-police more out of fear of the repercussions rather than because they realize this poo poo is wrong it's a plus. We're in a weird time right now with these accusations being taken more seriously than at any time before, so we've got decades of terrible, terrible poo poo being swept under the rug that's only recently being believed and taken seriously as it should have been from the start. This kind of poo poo's far from over, but it's a required growing pain.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:14
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Darwinism posted:Yeah, even if it makes people self-police more out of fear of the repercussions rather than because they realize this poo poo is wrong it's a plus. We're in a weird time right now with these accusations being taken more seriously than at any time before, so we've got decades of terrible, terrible poo poo being swept under the rug that's only recently being believed and taken seriously as it should have been from the start. This kind of poo poo's far from over, but it's a required growing pain. Totally, and I think a lot of it is due to social media making people heard more, self-publishing allowing for a few strong and influential publishers to no longer have the power, and the growing presence of women in the industry - although it seems that even they can be among the forces attacking victims in retribution. It's going to suck to lose some heroes, but it's the cost of an acceptable industry/community. I'll say it now though, if my idol Greg Stolze turns out to be bad I'll riot.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:27
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:I'll say it now though, if my idol Greg Stolze turns out to be bad I'll riot. Don’t even talk about it. Just don’t.
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Nov 13, 2017 00:39
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Subjunctive posted:Don’t even talk about it. Just don’t. Isn't that the problem here?
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Nov 13, 2017 01:19
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I think it was more of a don't jink it thing
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Nov 13, 2017 01:27
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JesterOfAmerica posted:I think it was more of a don't jink it thing If you dissect a frog, you learn a lot about the frog, but the frog is dead.
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Nov 13, 2017 01:32
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But if you vivisect a frog the frog lives, maybe. I'm not sure how that applies to this though and that would be very painful for the frog.
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Nov 13, 2017 01:41
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JesterOfAmerica posted:I think it was more of a don't jink it thing Yes, quite.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:14
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Kwyndig posted:But if you vivisect a frog the frog lives, maybe. I'm not sure how that applies to this though and that would be very painful for the frog. Please do not vivisect Greg Stolze without his consent.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:06
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:Please do not vivisect Greg Stolze without his consent. this is my favorite unknown armies adventure hook
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Nov 13, 2017 05:58
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David Hall posted a very long and solid piece on Green Ronin and their total inability to observe The First Rule Of Holes vvv: Ah. I did not realize David and Machine IV were the same person 
FMguru fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 03:30
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FMguru posted:David Hall posted a very long and solid piece on Green Ronin and their total inability to observe The First Rule Of Holes MachineIV posted:Okay. So, here's my trying to get through. For those so inclined.
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Nov 14, 2017 04:15
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I have nothing but respect for David Hill having to wade through getting dragged back into this industry time and time again.
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Nov 14, 2017 04:19
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Has Matt McFarland said anything about the accusation that made him leave RPG.net and Onyx Path? Because his blog is still being updated and totally mum on the subject. http://blackhatmatt.blogspot.com/
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Nov 14, 2017 04:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:I have nothing but respect for David Hill having to wade through getting dragged back into this industry time and time again. Eh. Thanks. But honestly I’m this case, it’s just that a lot of my friends ate hurting. So, instead of writing 5,000 words of my new novel, I tried reaching out and seeing if I could help mend some of those wounds maybe. I get to walk away. CA has hurt my loved ones, but if I walk away from this controversy, it’s no skin off my back. And gently caress if I wouldn’t like to see some guys face consequences for the poo poo I’ve been saying was a problem for years. It’s too late for all the bridges I burned. There’s no place in tabletop games for me. But so long as people are still listening to me for some reason, why not try to affect a little change?
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Nov 14, 2017 07:24
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Kavak posted:Has Matt McFarland said anything about the accusation that made him leave RPG.net and Onyx Path? Because his blog is still being updated and totally mum on the subject. Not that I can see. I'm considering bringing it up with the Indie Game Developer Network, because it's a little weird for a group with a huge focus on diversity and inclusion to keep him in a leadership position without comment. Then again his wife is the current President, which might make things... complicated.
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Nov 14, 2017 08:16
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Flavivirus posted:Not that I can see. I'm considering bringing it up with the Indie Game Developer Network, because it's a little weird for a group with a huge focus on diversity and inclusion to keep him in a leadership position without comment. Then again his wife is the current President, which might make things... complicated. That's something that absolutely needs to be brought up, but it sounds like you need to do it privately.
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Nov 14, 2017 08:56
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Bad idea: Use this to topple the current regime and install yourself as President.
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Nov 14, 2017 18:00
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MachineIV posted:Eh. Thanks. But honestly I’m this case, it’s just that a lot of my friends ate hurting. So, instead of writing 5,000 words of my new novel, I tried reaching out and seeing if I could help mend some of those wounds maybe. I'm mildly depressed by your eighteenth point, mostly because the cynic in me feels that you're right. If people in the hobby couldn't chase out Zak S. for the long term, it's sure as hell not going to chase CA out for that same timeframe. Let's not forget that the hobby is still comprised of people who gave Blood in the Chocolate an award despite it being objectively bad. I'd like to feel like there are still a fair number of folks who work in it who are objectively good or at least self-aware (many of you may frequent this thread - for that, I thank you).
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Nov 14, 2017 18:48
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LuiCypher posted:I'm mildly depressed by your eighteenth point, mostly because the cynic in me feels that you're right. If people in the hobby couldn't chase out Zak S. for the long term, it's sure as hell not going to chase CA out for that same timeframe. Absolutely. Also FWIW, I don't have very high expectations at this point. Already seeing suggestions it's not going to go well. 
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Nov 15, 2017 00:10
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Kavak posted:Has Matt McFarland said anything about the accusation that made him leave RPG.net and Onyx Path? Because his blog is still being updated and totally mum on the subject.
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Nov 15, 2017 11:40
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isn't Chris Pramas a bigshot at Green Ronin? is this self-deprecating humor or something? because that post looks like it's in really bad taste given their situation
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Nov 15, 2017 11:52
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Warthur posted:..."Danger Lurks In Vans" seems like an especially clueless title for a post, given the circumstances. Matt is incredibly bad at this.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:isn't Chris Pramas a bigshot at Green Ronin? is this self-deprecating humor or something? because that post looks like it's in really bad taste given their situation And yeah, not a good look.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:13
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Cinnamon Bear posted:Whats the story on this? I only know him from the Far West debacle. Comrade Gorbash posted:Twitter search is garbage, so I'll have to grab them when I get home. I don't want to minimize the complaints but what I've seen mostly comes down to Wendig making generalizations about the romance genre, and potentially being an rear end to specific people mixed with Twitter beef. And Twitter beef is a rough thing to parse, because the platform is basically designed to cause fights even when both sides are well meaning and in basic agreement. FMguru posted:It's real easy to brand yourself the Woke Good Guy Company whose single highest priority is "a commitment diversity, safety, and respect for all", that requires no effort at all. But they were called upon to act on their oh-so-progressive credentials and they completely and spectacularly poo poo the bed. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 19:02
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Plutonis posted:While I like EX3, it is not something I'd defend Morke or Holden from but rather a reason I have to kill them, in real life, with weapons  Impermanent posted:rpgnet moderation is an amazing example of the worst of civility discourse norms combined with a complete lack of accountability. It really says something that I vastly prefer the moderation of this lovely comedy forum where people get tempbanned on random whims over the moderation at the supposed quasi-professional gathering point for tabletop publishers.
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Nov 20, 2017 00:22
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That reminds me, does anyone know what the status is of Green Ronin's Timeline That Will Explain Everything About How They Were Totally In The Right W/R/T CA Suleiman?
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Nov 20, 2017 01:43
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Best as I can tell, they're maintaining radio silence.
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Nov 20, 2017 01:52
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They've sent the final draft of the timeline to GMS for approval before posting it
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Nov 20, 2017 01:54
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They'll release it when Far West is released.
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Nov 20, 2017 02:37
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:They'll release it when Far West is released. They're hoping we all forgot and will go back to paying them unearned credit in the industry. Well I'm not forgetting, and it'll be a cold day before GR gets any of my money in the future without a real apology for their asinine behavior.
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Nov 20, 2017 02:43
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