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ZiegeDame posted:Well If the question is specifically why the interest in humans, it's because they're stuck on this planet full of information about humans, and also the humans in Nier were really, really good at failure. They don't start to learn how to farm and then stop. They learn how to farm, they learn how to be really bad at farming, and mission accomplished. What a fascinating game. I'm split between many memorable/excellent moments and what ultimately feels like varying levels of missed potential for everything except the music. Feels like I'm still digesting, though, so don't want to be too certain yet.
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Nov 15, 2017 04:52
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Grey Fox posted:Just finished Route C and while I have lots of questions, one thing is nagging me the most What's the significance of machines that poorly emulate human behavior (the story about machines failing at farming over and over) without learning? Why do they want to do "human things," and why do they begin to learn and just...stop? The volcano god mentioned in a route B storybook segment inserted the command ”live” into the minds of all machines, hence they started desperately figuring out what living means, mostly through emulating different aspects of human life. As far as I can tell they’re not interested in actually succeeding at any of their attempts because they’re secondary to the goal of finding the meaning of life as cheesy as that sounds. There’s also the point to be made about failure being really essential to the human life experience
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Nov 15, 2017 11:36
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How's the game on PC now? Is there still a hundred fixes for it?
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Nov 15, 2017 13:31
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As far as I know there are absolutely no official patches regarding any of it's issues and you still have to use the FAR mod to enjoy it 100%. I preferred buying it for the Ps4.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:07
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Thinking back I'm surprised the discussion about the game's themes never wandered very seriously into topics like free will and sexual violence. To me it gives a truly unsettling tone to the whole narrative but I don't see it talked about often at all
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Nov 15, 2017 17:54
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I think Yoko Taro used up all his sexual points with Drakengard 3, so I'm glad that wasn't really a thing in this game.
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Nov 15, 2017 21:10
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I mean it's kinda a thing through how in the narrative sex and violence are really intertwined and it gives the whole game this a bit uncomfortable vibe for me which I can totally believe is intentional.
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Nov 15, 2017 21:28
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Momomo posted:I think Yoko Taro used up all his sexual points with Drakengard 3, so I'm glad that wasn't really a thing in this game. Well there is a fact that the main character looks like she's in a french maid outfit. Also there is plenty of butt. I haven't played Drakengard, so maybe it makes it look like this game has absolutely nothing.
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Nov 15, 2017 21:29
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Story themes about sexuality =/= sexualized character designs
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Nov 15, 2017 21:31
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Nina posted:Story themes about sexuality =/= sexualized character designs Got it. Disregard then.
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Nov 15, 2017 21:31
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Over There posted:Well there is a fact that the main character looks like she's in a french maid outfit. Also there is plenty of butt. Drakengard 3 is all about a woman murdering her sisters so she can gently caress their boyfriends. Every one of the guys is a perv in a different way, and they all loudly talk about quite often. Compared to Drakengard 3, Nier Automata is Sunday school. And not even Sunday school when one of the kids says he read Song of Solomon and he has some questions that the teacher is desperate not to have to answer.
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Nov 15, 2017 21:36
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chiasaur11 posted:Drakengard 3 is all about a woman murdering her sisters so she can gently caress their boyfriends. Every one of the guys is a perv in a different way, and they all loudly talk about quite often.  Oh
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Nov 15, 2017 21:48
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Over There posted:Well there is a fact that the main character looks like she's in a french maid outfit. Also there is plenty of butt. .jpg)
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Nov 15, 2017 21:53
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One of the guys' main traits is literally "has a gigantic dick", it even comes into play in one later scene.
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Nov 15, 2017 22:57
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Specifically, each of the guys in Drakengard 3 represents an archetype of the people who enjoy playing Drakengard 3. Dito gets off on all the gore and murder Decadus gets off on the tedious and painful gameplay Cent gets off on his own smugness at playing/beating a really hard game Octa gets off on plain old T&A
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Nov 15, 2017 23:14
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Well, there's 2B killing 9S in a very sexualized way, the massive machine orgy that gives birth to Adam & Eve and I guess something about Simone? But that's not even close to those Drakengard 3 screencaps, so yea, it's pretty tame.
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Nov 15, 2017 23:30
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There's more to Drakengard 3, Zero has a couple other (really good) reasons for tracking down and killing her sisters, but... yeah. The sex stuff is extremely not subtle.
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Nov 15, 2017 23:44
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Samuringa posted:Well, there's 2B killing 9S in a very sexualized way, the massive machine orgy that gives birth to Adam & Eve and I guess something about Simone? I dunno to me the creepiest scene in the game is 9S’ gleeful and thrilled proclamation he’ll murder a roomful of 2Bs when you keep in mind that whole ”androids are programmed to feel plessure while killing” deal. Really makes me uncomfortable at the idea of leaving the guy alone with 2B if you go for Ending E
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Nov 16, 2017 05:23
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Nina posted:I dunno to me the creepiest scene in the game is 9S’ gleeful and thrilled proclamation he’ll murder a roomful of 2Bs when you keep in mind that whole ”androids are programmed to feel plessure while killing” deal. Really makes me uncomfortable at the idea of leaving the guy alone with 2B if you go for Ending E We had very different takes on that scene. My take was that he had been pushed so much over everything leading up to that scene so that when the machines decide to really gently caress with him he just breaks completely. Also, considering how 2B's entire point of existing was to basically betray 9S if he ever learned too much or started to deviate away from standard practices I am not completely surprised that he would have some underlying issues with the model even with the frequent mind wipes.
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Nov 16, 2017 05:34
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To me the whole characterization just comes off as 2B being deeply disturbed by what she has to do specifically because of the messed up way they’re programmed to experience violence to the point she seems really eager to die when the opportunity arises. Meanwhile 9S is much more eager to go with the motions and be driven by his desires, even when he knows the truth he’s willing to ignore basic self-preservation instincts for the sake of being around her. For the longest time the characters really bugged me because their dynamic felt way worse than the characters in the first Nier. But when I started thinking ”what if these characters actually feel intense discomfort around each other but are unable to let go” suddenly the interactions where they flip flop between inane bickering and actual care clicked. Like any actually good allegory it’s not direct but I can’t look at these two and not feel like they’re screaming a message about clingy, unhealthy relationships that damage both parties. They’re totally codependent and bad for each other.
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Nov 16, 2017 06:26
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Nina posted:To me the whole characterization just comes off as 2B being deeply disturbed by what she has to do specifically because of the messed up way they’re programmed to experience violence to the point she seems really eager to die when the opportunity arises. Meanwhile 9S is much more eager to go with the motions and be driven by his desires, even when he knows the truth he’s willing to ignore basic self-preservation instincts for the sake of being around her. That's certainly... a take. It rather reminds me of Freudian Hamlet analysis that starts with the assumption that all young men are eager to murder their uncles. 2B is awkward around 9S because she cares about him, and also may receive an order at any moment to kill him. This would, for most people, be quite sufficient to render light conversation quite difficult! Meanwhile, 9S goes bonkers after everything he cares about is revealed to be a lie, and everyone he loves dies in agony. Again, most people, that's not going to leave them in a state of quiet consideration and ideal judgement. It's definitely a relationship with some serious hosed up to it, but assuming all of it comes from a dynamic that only gets specifically mentioned in one sidequest seems odd when the main plot has revelations that more than suffice to explain most of the awkwardness.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:48
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ZiegeDame posted:Specifically, each of the guys in Drakengard 3 represents an archetype of the people who enjoy playing Drakengard 3. And Zero herself just wants it all to be over with (so: she's an archetype for The Dark Id).
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Nov 16, 2017 12:29
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To note: I have immensely high standards for the characters you’re gonna put in a game that carries the Nier title. I’m just not satisfied with easy explanations for anybody, because Taro is not a person who writes easy characters
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Nov 16, 2017 13:01
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Can't get internet on my PS4 at college, so I'm trying to undertake Ending E without connecting to the network. It's been... going.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:40
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Nina posted:Taro is not a person who writes easy characters Except for the sisters in D3, hey-o.
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Nov 16, 2017 18:16
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Nina posted:To note: I have immensely high standards for the characters you’re gonna put in a game that carries the Nier title. I’m just not satisfied with easy explanations for anybody, because Taro is not a person who writes easy characters So because you have issues with the characters you have created this elaborate explinstion that makes them deep enough so that you deem them worthy to be in a game and will defend said reasoning even if it goes against what is actually going on in the game?
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Nov 16, 2017 19:55
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No I find that the characters are awkwardly written if you take it at face value and I know the author behind them is capable of much better, hence I try to delve deep. Saying "2B and 9S have an unhealthy relationship" isn't even contradicting anything stated by the game.
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Nov 16, 2017 20:14
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Huh. I didn't realize '2B and 9S have an unhealthy relationship' was a hot take in some folks' eyes. IMHO, I thought it was super obvious; the whole game seemed to do the "we are all not okay but we put a thin veneer of stability as a facade" theme all across the board.
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Nov 16, 2017 21:32
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Nina posted:To note: I have immensely high standards for the characters you’re gonna put in a game that carries the Nier title. I’m just not satisfied with easy explanations for anybody, because Taro is not a person who writes easy characters Can you elaborate a bit on what you liked about the characters of Nier 1? The plight of the Shadowlord hit me real hard but for some reason I can't get myself to care that much about Kaine or Emil. I felt they were a little too exaggerated whereas most of the Nier 2 characters were more relatable for me.
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Nov 16, 2017 21:44
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Funny, I loved the characters of Nier 1, Kaine and Weiss had this great antagonistic banter, perfect foils for each other. Nier himself is a fantastic, wholesome father figure who would make Kant proud. However not a single character in Nier Automata, save for small moments with Pascal, manage to make me give a poo poo at all. 2B is your standard animu Rei ripoff and 9S is a stock whiney anime protagonist with little enough personality that you can imagine yourself as him. Whole game is packed with completely 2D characters.
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Nov 16, 2017 22:22
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I'd think people would sooner imagine themselves as 2B considering you play her first and she's a blank slate/ big question mark for most of the game.
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Nov 16, 2017 22:29
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Professor of Cats posted:Huh. I didn't realize '2B and 9S have an unhealthy relationship' was a hot take in some folks' eyes. IMHO, I thought it was super obvious; the whole game seemed to do the "we are all not okay but we put a thin veneer of stability as a facade" theme all across the board. "9S and 2B's relationship is all kinds of hosed up" isn't a hot take. "9S and 2B's relationship is hosed up specifically because androids mix bloodlust and the standard kind, and not the many other difficulties central to the game's narrative" is the take I find more... questionable.
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Nov 16, 2017 23:02
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Regarding the TDI LP The next quests are so adorable. Shame the obvious happens
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Nov 16, 2017 23:12
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 its doing bad things to my recommended links
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Nov 16, 2017 23:29
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Cymbal Monkey posted:Funny, I loved the characters of Nier 1, Kaine and Weiss had this great antagonistic banter, perfect foils for each other. Nier himself is a fantastic, wholesome father figure who would make Kant proud. However not a single character in Nier Automata, save for small moments with Pascal, manage to make me give a poo poo at all. 2B is your standard animu Rei ripoff and 9S is a stock whiney anime protagonist with little enough personality that you can imagine yourself as him. Whole game is packed with completely 2D characters. I think all those points could be said about Nier 2 as well. Having 2D characters isn't necessarily a bad thing though. I think the interesting thing that these games do is change your perspective on each character. The revelation makes them feel 3D even when they're not. I think my problem with Kaine and Emil is that they're not quite presented that way. They both don't really have revelations that change their character. They both certainly have backstories that color their motivations, but there's nothing that really changes how I look at them. In that sense, I'd say that they are more 2D than 2B/9S, whose revelations are both subtle and earth-shattering.
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Nov 17, 2017 00:49
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Hikaki posted:Can you elaborate a bit on what you liked about the characters of Nier 1? The plight of the Shadowlord hit me real hard but for some reason I can't get myself to care that much about Kaine or Emil. I felt they were a little too exaggerated whereas most of the Nier 2 characters were more relatable for me. Nier as a character is basic but has a great dynamic with the party members and works well within the setting, he’s the softest Taro protagonist and strikes a good balance between his fall to revenge rampage and monomania while also legitimately caring for his friends. BroNier fits into the game’s concepts of wounded children growing up to be scarred adults but while his mindset is destructive he also manages to channel it positively towards wanting to protect his friends out of sympathy stemming from everyone having gone through great pain. It culminates in ending D when Nier’s altruist side wins over his monomania and he decides his friends are more worthy of having a shot at happiness than he is. He’s a daft kid who grows up taking a detour through Taro-brand selfish streak of murder but ultimately ends the game as a good person. Of course he still dooms humanity unwittingly but it wraps up the message that decent people can end up doing horrible things out of their beliefs. Weiss is a twist on the wise magical mentor character by being mostly antagonistic and vitriolic, I really love how most of the game’s comedy comes out of this character coded as a grumpy old man instead of a more traditional comic relief. For BroNier he’s clearly a bit of a father figure as well and I really enjoy it when he questions the menial tasks the party gets up to only for Nier to actually give pretty sound reasons for doing it. It makes the sidequests mesh into main character motivations well, something Automata doesn’t even attempt. I don’t have as much to say about Weiss, he’s mostly an entertaining foil to other vharacters but the writing around him is really good. Kainé is arguably the most multi-tiered character Taro has written. What I love about her is that everything about how she looks and acts makes sense and gains new depths as more is revealed. Kainé’s motivations already make sense on a superficial level during the initial run, she’s ostracized and she vents that with violence and profanity. But then you learn it’s not that simple when you find out she knows the truth, she can hear the shades’ voices and knows them to be sentient so you ask yourself what could be the reason for her to still keep up the murder if she’s not a truly bad person. And at this point Tyrann gets thrown into the mix and you learn she has to keep killing firstly to placate Tyrann and secondly to not have Tyrann drive her into suicide. It comes off as Kainé primarily concerning herself with the first, more righteous motivation but the more human answer is simply that she doesn’t want to die. All the while she’s torn by questions about whether she actually does enjoy the killing or if it’s a disturbing feeling Tyrann incites in her to manipulate her. It’s a very tangible, unsettling way to portray how a traumatized person might feel like in the end they deserved all the crap because there’s something inherently evil about them, something the people of Aerie were already yelling at Kainé when she was young and innocent. Kainé has this fuckmassive load of complex characterization about dealing with loss, violence and self image so fortunately she also has a very human side through all the moments it turns out she really cares for and wants to protect Emil out of the kinship they feel and later the way you learn about the heartwarming relationship she had with her grandmother. Kainé is a character who might seem evil, had every right to become evil and commits evil out of really human motivations and I think that’s where Taro struck gold with this characterization. Her redemption is incredibly cathartic as the result. Emil has a Taro-archetype to fill as the innocent companion who allows for characters steeped into their lowest points to have moments of softness and humanity. He also allows the game to explore its themes of childhoods devastated by unfair loss by seeing in real time as he finds out about his sister, loses her and is disfigured. Post moon skeleton Emil, like Weiss, is a character who shines through interactions with other characters. The way he struggles to remain the same cheerful person and how he’s consoled by Nier, Kainé and even Weiss bring really welcome tenderness to the second half of the game. He’s that child who keeps the family together. And that’s just analyzing the characters. They also have two key qualities Automata main characters don’t. They all have personal agency and feelings about the events and they have dialogue between each other that makes their interpersonal feelings realistic. When the characters in Nier bicker it’s entertaining and feels like friends making fun of each other without real antagonism. When the characters in Automata bicker they come off as just not being able to stand each other. Nina fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 06:02
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Nina posted:When the characters in Automata bicker they come off as just not being able to stand each other. Are you talking about 9S with 2B and 21O? That's explained with the 2E reveal. 2B and 21O have learned to avoid (or at least attempt to avoid) forming a connection with 9S since he's constantly on the chopping block. They are certainly cold to him, and even the few "warm" moments they had seemed out of character at the time, but it makes perfect sense to me knowing the twist. Nina posted:He’s a daft kid who grows up taking a detour through Taro-brand selfish streak of murder Did he ever really relish in killing though? I felt that he was just extremely single-minded in his search for Yonah, everyone else be damned. I don't think I could call him selfish. To me it's his most important character trait, as it's what makes the Shadowlord such a tragic and sympathetic villain. The rest you said is insightful, thank you.
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Nov 17, 2017 08:11
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Nier doesn’t enjoy killing inherently, but he goes on by his conviction that killing any shades is doing a service to just about everybody when really he’s motivated so heavily by his monomania about Yonah he’s just taking out his grief on them in excess and disregards any notion it might be destructive. He’s the lightest example of it though and not even close to other Taro protags in the whole enjoys killing aspect
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Nov 17, 2017 08:22
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I think I am kinda bouncing off this game but wanted to check on a few things before I give up: - Do you ever get the ability to traverse the city a little easier? They tease you with these wingsuits but just for story bosses so far. I find getting around pretty annoying even with double jump and a +10% speed up mod. - Is the map being bad part of some long running in joke or something? They reference this in game so I assume so. But wow, it is very bad. The games annoying map barriers and invisible walls don't help either. - At what point am I going to give a poo poo about anything going on? So far at least the writing is dreadful and the games setpieces are loving bizarre. Some thing gave birth to something that I killed which birthed something else. Now they are back later as twins in an even weirder sequence. Ok? - Does the combat system improve/evolve? So far it seems pretty shallow outside of your chip build choices. This is so highly rated on Metacritic and in user reviews but I am really not getting it, I'm about 6 hours in. I just passed the part with the alien reveal, after the weirdo circus.
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Nov 20, 2017 20:12
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You're like a minute away from unlocking fast travel but it sounds like the game just isn't for you.
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Nov 20, 2017 20:16
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