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Cyrano4747 posted:As late as Martin Luther you have people advocating training up as many decent priests as possible and sending them into the sticks to make the yokals stop being "christian" in the kitbash pagan sense and actually get them up to speed. Look, dipping your weapons in holy water before you kill a wizard isn't mysticism, it's science.
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 21:32 |
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# ? May 12, 2024 11:29 |
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In the Middle Ages, almost everybody agrees that witchcraft is a myth and that believing in witches is either superstition or mental illness. (Other sorts of magic, like astrology or herbalism or divination or alchemy or magic with dolls are all just branches of science/natural philosophy and only illegal if you use them to hurt somebody. Medieval courts didn't care whether you killed somebody by stabbing them or by making a doll of them, casting spells over it and then stabbing it. Using magic to murder was still murder. But using magic to heal or to find something or make someone fall in love with you or drive out rats or whatever was perfectly fine in medieval law.) The laws against witchcraft and all the big witchcraft trials all happen after the Middle Ages end.
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:13 |
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sullat posted:Look, dipping your weapons in holy water before you kill a wizard isn't mysticism, it's science. Empirical evidence: Wallenstein probably isn't still alive that said I'd totally watch a B-movie to the contrary
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:26 |
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Epicurius posted:In the Middle Ages, almost everybody agrees that witchcraft is a myth and that believing in witches is either superstition or mental illness. (Other sorts of magic, like astrology or herbalism or divination or alchemy or magic with dolls are all just branches of science/natural philosophy and only illegal if you use them to hurt somebody. Medieval courts didn't care whether you killed somebody by stabbing them or by making a doll of them, casting spells over it and then stabbing it. Using magic to murder was still murder. But using magic to heal or to find something or make someone fall in love with you or drive out rats or whatever was perfectly fine in medieval law.) How do you go from witchcraft not being real to being super real and super worrying?
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:28 |
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OwlFancier posted:How do you go from witchcraft not being real to being super real and super worrying? I note with interest that witch hunting tended to be more of a Protestant thing.
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:33 |
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feedmegin posted:I note with interest that witch hunting tended to be more of a Protestant thing. I feel like there's a fairly famous exception to that rule.
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:34 |
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OwlFancier posted:How do you go from witchcraft not being real to being super real and super worrying? To greatly oversimplify, heresy. The rise of grand-scale moral panic against witchcraft runs in parallel to the Protestant reformation and accompanying social turmoil and anxiety about Christianity in Europe. There are loads of other factors but this is the biggest one imo. e: this is not to say that witch hunting was a Protestant phenomenon, it wasn’t. The first witch trials predated the reformation and there is no significant bias towards them in Protestant theory or practice. Rather the phenomenon stemmed from the same problems that also would lead to schisms arising in the Church. skasion fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Nov 15, 2017 |
# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:36 |
feedmegin posted:I note with interest that witch hunting tended to be more of a Protestant thing. This is a bogus hypothesis, the reality of how witchcraft belief and persecution came to be destructive is much more to do with the fact that Christianity had become more schismatic and therefore distrust within communities skyrocketed. skasion posted:To greatly oversimplify, heresy. The rise of grand-scale moral panic against witchcraft runs in parallel to the Protestant reformation and accompanying social turmoil and anxiety about Christianity in Europe. There are loads of other factors but this is the biggest one imo. Yeah what this guy said.
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:43 |
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Witchcraft gradually became a heretical thing, but in the early days of Christianity, believing in witchcraft was itself heretical and Not To Be Done, because believing in witches was something done by foolish pagans and not enlightened Christians. There's probably a tipping-point somewhere but I'm on my phone and my collection of books on the subject is buried somewhere in my storage unit, which is too bad because I could talk about the European witch hysteria for days.
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:44 |
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Mad Hamish posted:...I'm on my phone and my collection of books on the subject is buried somewhere in my storage unit, which is too bad because I could talk about the European witch hysteria for days.
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# ? Nov 15, 2017 23:48 |
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Killing witches isn't a uniquely Christian thing, it's pretty much standard fare throughout all human history that if someone is invoking magic or the gods against you then you are allowed to defend yourself with violence.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:01 |
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Ithle01 posted:Killing witches isn't a uniquely Christian thing, it's pretty much standard fare throughout all human history that if someone is invoking magic or the gods against you then you are allowed to defend yourself with violence. I’m no expert in Roman law but there was definitely a magic industry in the Roman world with like, form-letter spells to shrivel up some bitch’s uterus or whatever and I don’t think anyone got away with killing the witches who sold them.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:03 |
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You guys I am literally reading Ronald Hutton's 'The Witch' right now and it goes into this in such glorious depth.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:07 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:You're right on the Sharia one. It could be argued that anti-Sharia laws in Alabama are an attempt to Christianize a medieval society, too.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:10 |
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skasion posted:I’m no expert in Roman law but there was definitely a magic industry in the Roman world with like, form-letter spells to shrivel up some bitch’s uterus or whatever and I don’t think anyone got away with killing the witches who sold them. Heck, that goes back to ancient Egypt & Sumeria.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:23 |
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The phrase abracadbra comes from one of the more popular spells of that form I think. Dunno if that one goes all the way back to antiquity though
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:24 |
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cheetah7071 posted:The phrase abracadbra comes from one of the more popular spells of that form I think. Dunno if that one goes all the way back to antiquity though Not quite that form, but it is ancient. The first attested use of the phrase is in triangular form on an amulet Caracalla’s doctor recommended for avoiding malaria. There seems to have been a whole species of mystical gibberish words suitable for invoking magic, like abracadabra and atracatetracati and such. e: this could probably be connected to the magic words of later, bitchin’ Gnostic ritual texts. “You are not wine, but the guts of Osiris, the guts of... Ablanathanalba Akrammachamarei Eee, who has been stationed over necessity, Iakoub Ia Iaō Sabaōth Adōnai Abrasax.” skasion fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Nov 16, 2017 |
# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:40 |
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skasion posted:I'm no expert in Roman law but there was definitely a magic industry in the Roman world with like, form-letter spells to shrivel up some bitchs uterus or whatever and I dont think anyone got away with killing the witches who sold them. Table VII of the Twelve Tables of Rome posted:Anyone who, by means of incantations and magic arts, prevents grain or crops of any kind belonging to another from growing, shall be sacrificed to Ceres...
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:51 |
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Those roman laws are doubly awesome because apparently archaeologists find curse tablets buried inside buildings all the time.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 00:57 |
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Yeah, but did this actually happen? Romans weren’t big on the religious practice of human sacrifice...just the political kind. Unrelatedly, everyone should probably go read the quote:Sword of Dardanos: Rite which is called "sword," which has no equal because of its power, for it immediately bends and attracts the soul of whomever you wish. As you say the spell, also say: And that’s just to give someone a wet dream! Think what you’d have to do to actually kill someone! skasion fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Nov 16, 2017 |
# ? Nov 16, 2017 01:02 |
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It's important to distinguish magic and witchcraft in the early modern mind, too. Magic was the use of occult/secret methods to influence the natural world. You might know an incantation that will prevent rats from getting in your grain. You might know about a herb that can cause an abortion/miscarriage. You might know how to study the stars to determine why someone is sick. You might know how to make a potion to settle somebody's stomach. You might know a prayer or incantation that will make it easier for a woman in labor. You might know how to make a charm that will help protect a house against sickness. This is all called "natural magic", and it's something that's passed down from teacher to student, father to son, mother to daughter. This is medieval magic, and the attitude of the Catholic Church varied from grudging acceptance to roll your eyes skepticism. Witchcraft, on the other hand, is agreeing to serve the devil in exchange for demonic powers you can use to harm other people, and that was considered always evil.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 01:14 |
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Well, I imagine there's a difference between 'someone cast a spell and nothing happened so no one cares' and 'something bad happened and I don't understand it so let's go drown a witch'. It's pretty common for scapegoating when something goes wrong. If you can blame it on witchcraft then there you go. edit: when you live in a society where no one really understands how people get sick or how poison works it's very easy to think that maybe it's possible to curse someone so they get sick. Ithle01 fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Nov 16, 2017 |
# ? Nov 16, 2017 01:21 |
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skasion posted:Yeah, but did this actually happen? Romans weren’t big on the religious practice of human sacrifice...just the political kind. Just killing them by hand?
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 01:29 |
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LingcodKilla posted:Just killing them by hand? Why bother, when you could slip the gall of a shrew-mouse into his drink! quote:You put its gall into a (measure of) wine and the man drinks it; then he dies at once; or (you) put it into any piece [of food]. While you’re partying though, you should consider some other handy magics: quote:xxix. To be Able to Eat Garlic and Not Stink quote:xxxiii. To Get an Erection When You Want It’s hard to suppress the impression that some of these wizards were just professional trolls. quote:iii. Love Spell I’m sure this guy knows what he’s talking about
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 01:45 |
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THAZI NEPIBATHA CHEOUCH CHA was a well-known hot guy that every woman wanted, we've just lost all other records of him
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 01:48 |
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Pretty sure that's just a character in Kill Six Billion Demons.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 02:40 |
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aphid_licker posted:That story is utterly amazing Seriously, I want a version of Veep about a Roman governor during the decline.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 03:27 |
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skasion posted:Yeah, but did this actually happen? Romans weren’t big on the religious practice of human sacrifice...just the political kind. Can't speak to the Romans but killing people for practicing bad magic is extremely common in a great many cultures across time and space. It's why I'm a bit skeptical towards the idea that witch persecutions were actually part of a long term christian effort in Europe. I'm not hostile to the idea, just skeptical, I'm not sure how it's supported. Distinctions between the good socially sanction magic and the bad, evil antisocial magic are also very common.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 03:39 |
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I mean lets be real, the "witch" would usually just be a widowed woman or sometimes an older man who was doing a bit better than some other people, in the great campaigns to kill witches done under nominally Christian excuses. It was just finding a reason to get rid of someone who happened to somewhat violate norms while also generating a scapegoat for local discontent, and it's not really reasonable to assume these people were all also actually doing much more paganism than their neighbors..
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 04:21 |
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Stories like this and the one about the treatment of the Goths fleeing the Huns really kind of put a silver lining on the fall of the Empire for me.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 04:24 |
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Stringent posted:Stories like this and the one about the treatment of the Goths fleeing the Huns really kind of put a silver lining on the fall of the Empire for me. small brain: defending the citizenry from brigands big brain: using your government connections to pocket the pay for defending the citizenry from brigands while not actually fighting the brigands galaxy brain: using your government connections to pocket the pay for defending the citizenry from brigands while actually using the pay to hire the brigands to fight for you psychedelic deity brain: becoming the brigands and toppling the government
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 04:41 |
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LingcodKilla posted:Just killing them by hand? No it's a very detailed and magical ritual that just happens to involve inserting a dagger into your intended victim's heart as part of step 14.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 05:09 |
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LingcodKilla posted:Just killing them by hand? I mean if that were a realistic option for everyone I doubt anyone would bother with the whole magic rigamarole.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 07:43 |
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What if I want to kill someone but don't want to physically leave my house, what then smart guy? That's right, we use magic to kill them.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 07:56 |
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Being familiar with medicine and biology and the ways that people will randomly sicken and drop dead for no obvious reason, I can't help but wonder that alot of people got unjustly blamed and murdered by a mob whenever it happens.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 09:15 |
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Don Gato posted:What if I want to kill someone but don't want to physically leave my house, what then smart guy? Or money. Money works too.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 09:23 |
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skasion posted:Yeah, but did this actually happen? Romans weren’t big on the religious practice of human sacrifice...just the political kind. You can't fool me that's from spellsofmagick.com I especially like invoking archmage rare pepe, and also that the final invocation doesn't have a closing speech mark so you are supposed to read the instructions out loud.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 10:17 |
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OwlFancier posted:You can't fool me that's from spellsofmagick.com The magician would actually draw things on the papyrus. Sometimes it's a recognizable figure like Set or that dwarf fertility god I forget the name of, other times it's anyone's guess.
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 11:08 |
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i see they had dicknipples in the past as well
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 11:33 |
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# ? May 12, 2024 11:29 |
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Honestly that story of North Africa really helps justify Valentinian just stroking out and dying. (I know supposedly it was caused by an entirely different set of underlings loving with Barbarians).
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# ? Nov 16, 2017 11:42 |