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brainwrinkle posted:Im on the East Coast and talking to a company that wants to fly me out to SF to interview. Should I ask the recruiter for salary bands before agreeing to fly out? No point in wasting 12+ hours of my life on planes and airports if Im not tempted by the salary. From the point of view of ideal negotiating tactics, I don't think so. The recruiter will probably respond by asking you for your salary requirement or by giving you a range which is so broad as to be unhelpful.
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Nov 16, 2017 07:30
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Nah I believe you. Ive switched at 3 years and Im looking again after another 2. I must have hosed it up a little last time though, settled for 10% and equity (funny money). Going to shoot for 40% or better this time.
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Nov 16, 2017 07:32
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Love Stole the Day posted:Thanks so much for your point-by-point advice. Tried looking up the USDS in the US on the USAJobs.gov site but unfortunately I don't see any openings there. That looks to be true. Same for 18F. That said, don't be afraid to contact some of their recruitment team directly. They're usually friendly. Your state might also have a digital team, I know California just started one and they're very keen to do it right. Love Stole the Day posted:As for revising the resume further to word things in a better way, isn't that kind of what I've been going through all of this time? Every time I reach out and get advice, it always makes sense when they explain their reasoning but it never seems to have any effect on my actual results. Sometimes the advice is even contradictory. Absolutely, but without knowing exactly what changes you've tried in the past I had to take the chance on giving redundant advice. Unfortunately because you're getting blackholed we don't have anything to work with, so everyone you ask is going to give best-guess advice usually from what worked for them or what might work in their part of their industry. It's not the best but it's all we've got, sorry. Love Stole the Day posted:As described in my previous post, my Web Dev stuff isn't anywhere near as plentiful and so I'm sure my latest CV iteration for web stuff definitely won't have anything to be impressed about because like I said, most of my programming achievements are related to modding and scripting and whatnot for games. I'll try to send you something soon, though. Yeah, hence the suggestion to build something web-related. But really only if you want to go into web development long term, it can be quite siloing compared to other specialisms.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:30
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brainwrinkle posted:Nah I believe you. Ive switched at 3 years and Im looking again after another 2. I must have hosed it up a little last time though, settled for 10% and equity (funny money). Going to shoot for 40% or better this time. I don't think I ever got the most value out of my negotiations for permie jobs, but I'm doing better as a contractor. When asked for my day rate I tell them a number 20% above my high water mark but tell them it's negotiable so they don't get sticker shock, then when a few have come back with a number I pick the one I like best for job vs working conditions vs pay. Sometimes that means I go down, sometimes I go up.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:36
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brainwrinkle posted:Any tips for getting the big bucks once youve been in the industry 5 years? Im at a startup and enjoy it, but these numbers make me incredibly jealous. Ive read the standard negotiating tips - since I dont have any need to move on, is it a matter of just playing hardball on salary until a prospect bites? There's a reason why so many surveys of developers' salaries are way below that, even in places like NYC (I don't know the first thing about SF but I imagine the story is the same). I assume their skills are extremely specific and unique, or they just suckered some poor company that is so drowning in money that it can afford to throw that much money at someone. In which case they should throw that money at me. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 16, 2017 14:22
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Dan Luu is relatively well known, has a great blog, and works on difficult hardware stuff. You'll never get that kind of money to make business applications.
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Nov 16, 2017 14:44
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brainwrinkle posted:Any tips for getting the big bucks once youve been in the industry 5 years? Im at a startup and enjoy it, but these numbers make me incredibly jealous. Ive read the standard negotiating tips - since I dont have any need to move on, is it a matter of just playing hardball on salary until a prospect bites? Those read more like Staff comp packages than Senior comp packages to me
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Nov 16, 2017 15:37
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Leave it to engineers to take the outlier as representative... Half of all coders make below the median salary (which is more informative than the mean), that's why it's the median. I smacked this together from the Stack Overflow data across the US. The distribution actually has negative kurtosis (-0.2), which means there are fewer outliers and thinner tails, so take anyone saying that most engineers can make that kind of money with a grain of salt. 
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Nov 16, 2017 16:16
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:There's a reason why so many surveys of developers' salaries are way below that, even in places like NYC (I don't know the first thing about SF but I imagine the story is the same). I assume their skills are extremely specific and unique, or they just suckered some poor company that is so drowning in money that it can afford to throw that much money at someone. In which case they should throw that money at me. Said poor company is likely going to run out of money very quickly, too, so don't depend on it long term. Also, brainwinkle, I'm in a very similar position (Boston working with an SF company). You'll likely be fine salary-band wise, but I will admit it can be difficult to take a chunk out of your week to fly all the way to the other side of the country. Up to you.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:16
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Leave it to engineers to take the outlier as representative... Neat! Am I reading this right that the first great comp wall is at $75k, the second is $90k and the third is $120k?
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Nov 16, 2017 16:18
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Munkeymon posted:Neat! Am I reading this right that the first great comp wall is at $75k, the second is $90k and the third is $120k? That's very similar to what I and other people have experienced, so I would suspect that's the case, yes.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:19
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I got chewed out by Mr. Manager for a design decision with respect to exception handling that I made (and discussed with the lead cause its been a contentious topic before) given our requirements for this component of the system. Passive-aggressive slack message at 11pm about how it was "unacceptable design" and when I backed up mine (our) decision he reveals that it's not acceptable because of requirement X which we never had and never would have concluded ourselves. Now, we have to rewrite about 10 files, 3-4 of their respective tests, and add more tests for these edge cases. Leaving the dev side to become a PM sounds better every day.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:19
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Munkeymon posted:Neat! Am I reading this right that the first great comp wall is at $75k, the second is $90k and the third is $120k? E: Here's another chart I have floating around 
Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 16, 2017 16:20
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I got chewed out by Mr. Manager for a design decision with respect to exception handling that I made (and discussed with the lead cause its been a contentious topic before) given our requirements for this component of the system. Passive-aggressive slack message at 11pm about how it was "unacceptable design" and when I backed up mine (our) decision he reveals that it's not acceptable because of requirement X which we never had and never would have concluded ourselves. Now, we have to rewrite about 10 files, 3-4 of their respective tests, and add more tests for these edge cases. Sounds like it's his problem and not yours if he failed to communicate a requirement like that. I would have mutinied, but talk is cheap...I feel for you.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:33
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Is there a description of how the StackOverflow data was collected?
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Nov 16, 2017 16:34
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ultrafilter posted:Is there a description of how the StackOverflow data was collected? https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017
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Nov 16, 2017 16:35
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That's what I thought. In this case, the data is collected from people who (a) use StackOverflow and (b) were willing to give their information. Part (a) probably isn't ruling out too many people, but part (b) might. Whether or not somebody gives out their salary information is probably not independent of what their salary is, so I wouldn't regard it as necessarily representative.
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Nov 16, 2017 16:39
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ultrafilter posted:That's what I thought. In this case, the data is collected from people who (a) use StackOverflow and (b) were willing to give their information. Part (a) probably isn't ruling out too many people, but part (b) might. Whether or not somebody gives out their salary information is probably not independent of what their salary is, so I wouldn't regard it as necessarily representative. You go with what you've got  and make the caveats clear.That being said my inclination is to think that the Stack Overflow survey, if anything, skews higher than average since I'm sure there are developers that don't use it, or that higher-salaried developers are more inclined to respond to the survey. Like a lot of things, take it with a few grains of salt. And kick the anecdotal evidence that developers can generally make 400k salaries; even here there's no indication that it's anything but an outlier. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 16, 2017 17:17
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Leave it to engineers to take the outlier as representative... Hello yes thanks for the insult for the thing I did not do!! Nice to meet you! I am well aware that these salaries are far above standard for most programmers at that experience level. I was curious to hear of any insights as to how people achieved that. Some popular figures in the industry assert that these numbers are very achievable if you negotiate well. Companies have far more leverage than individuals in salary negotiations. Its helpful to know that the ceiling is actually far above what Stack Overflow salaries (minus equity comp?) says.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:28
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brainwrinkle posted:Hello yes thanks for the insult for the thing I did not do!! Nice to meet you! 
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Nov 16, 2017 17:32
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Absolutely, but there isn't much reliable salary data out there. There's anecdotes or data that's entirely self-selected and not verified. There's https://www.roberthalf.com/salary-guide/technology and they should have really accurate, if not well-representative data, but I don't think they let you actually see their data, just their analysis.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:36
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Oh I wasn't addressing that at you, sorry if you thought that No worries, sorry for taking offense.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:40
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Leave it to engineers to take the outlier as representative... Ghost of Reagan Past posted:And kick the anecdotal evidence that developers can generally make 400k salaries; even here there's no indication that it's anything but an outlier.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:45
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Is there an exact way to determine total compensation? I mean beyond salary and stock. Are people guessing the value of health insurance and perquisites?
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Nov 16, 2017 19:32
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meatpotato posted:Is there an exact way to determine total compensation? I mean beyond salary and stock. Are people guessing the value of health insurance and perquisites? I think in these cases when people are talking about total comp they mean salary, equity, and bonus. The other stuff doesn't really scale with experience in the same way. You could probably tack on an extra $25k for a company with good benefits to account for health insurance, 401k, etc.
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Nov 16, 2017 20:00
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I believe those numbers for a strong candidate at at BigCo (I don't know anything about startups). I believe them both because I know people who have gotten similar offers, but also because I think Dan Luu knows what he's talking about on this topic. His blog posts on compensation jibe very well with my own experiences, especially his various observations about the behavior of highly compensated people causing these numbers to skew low (rather than high) are spot on. In particular, this Dan Luu posted:The responses on this post have been quite divided. Folks at big companies usually agree, except that the numbers seem low to them, especially for new grads. This is true even for people who living in places like Madison and Austin, which have a cost of living similar to U.S. median. On the other hand, a lot of people vehemently maintain that the numbers in this post are basically impossible. A lot of people are really invested in the idea that theyre making about as much as possible. If youve decided that making less money is the right trade-off for you, thats fine and I dont have any problem with that. But if you really think that you cant make that much money and you dont believe me, I recommend talking to one of the hundreds of thousands of engineers at one of the many large companies that pays well. Nippashish fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 16, 2017 23:47
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All my offers that included RSUs were net over $250k / year, period. None of my offers for the same region or market that were roughly similar otherwise were substantially below $150k or with companies that closed after being unable to even give me the variable comp. Even defense contractors doing cyber bullshitting cant touch $250k comp without you being a celebish engineer (conference speaking, major open source contributions, etc) or director. Business norms for region matters substantially as well. In the southeast, almost nobody besides those that are big tech companies from larger tech hubs seem to offer RSUs, and most want you to relocate. So if you want to hit the big bucks, my suggestion is as follows: 1. Be good enough to get a Big Tech offer or for something niche and profitable like quantitative finance 2. Move 3. ???
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Nov 17, 2017 00:47
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necrobobsledder posted:All my offers that included RSUs were net over $250k / year, period. None of my offers for the same region or market that were roughly similar otherwise were substantially below $150k or with companies that closed after being unable to even give me the variable comp. Even defense contractors doing cyber bullshitting cant touch $250k comp without you being a celebish engineer (conference speaking, major open source contributions, etc) or director. Business norms for region matters substantially as well. In the southeast, almost nobody besides those that are big tech companies from larger tech hubs seem to offer RSUs, and most want you to relocate. Basically just spend the time learning how to whiteboard interview well and then interview at one of the big tech companies for a position in one of the smaller more affordable markets. Big Tech $$$ and affordable housing owns
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Nov 17, 2017 01:12
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Yeah part of the reason SF and NYC are so high is that even nobody startups have to offer 130k+ just to compete for decent engineers from BigTechCo. I have a feeling in other regions the majors just scoop up the best talent (if they even have a presence there) and then everyone else pays less.
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Nov 17, 2017 01:49
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Internet: Impossible! Nobody makes that much!
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Nov 17, 2017 03:30
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I don't think it's impossible, I just don't think it's as common as some of you guys think it is because you're living in bubbles. Not in a bad way - stack all the paper you can get. Just don't assume that because all the people in your professional network in one of the four or five high-value markets make $150k minimum that that's statistically normal.
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Nov 17, 2017 15:55
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I certainly don't think it is normal in most markets and industries, but within tech companies/startups with HQs in the Bay Area, NYC, and a few other expensive markets it is completely normal
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Nov 17, 2017 16:29
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Jose Valasquez posted:I certainly don't think it is normal in most markets and industries, but within tech companies/startups with HQs in the Bay Area, NYC, and a few other expensive markets it is completely normal We should just make a rule that if you're going to discuss your +150k salary you should also be required to postfix in brackets the amount you pay in rent/mortgage.
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Nov 17, 2017 19:26
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And cocaine if you're in [NYC, finance]
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Nov 17, 2017 19:48
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When I worked at BigTechCo while living in San Francisco, I earned $175K + ~15% bonus + $250K RSUs over 4 years. I've been working for about 2 decades but don't consider myself special. I talked with co-workers and they were paid the same if not more, some of them had only been working for half the time, some without even a college degree. I paid $1700 in rent (yay rent-control) and reduced my month-to-month costs by about $500 per month compared to my previous job, because BigTechCo also paid for all meals, gym, phone, & transportation expenses. While that might seem like a dream salary, take note that expectations were pretty high and I basically had no time to enjoy any of that money because my weekends were either recovering from the hectic week or feverishly trying to keep my skillset relevant. It was pretty detrimental to my mental and physical well-being and I'm ultimately happy that I took "eternity leave".
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Nov 17, 2017 19:58
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minato posted:feverishly trying to keep my skillset relevant Even if the pay was ungodly, I probably wouldn't be able to push my limit on how long I stayed if I wasn't keeping my skillset relevant during my 8-9 hours in office a day. I get way too anxious about not learning and not progressing. I'm at a point where I feel my pay is about as high as I could go for my exp, but I'm also learning a pretty good amount (albeit very much laboring through it on my own). How'd you manage?
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Nov 17, 2017 20:32
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Re: $$$ A relevant comment on HN: quote:As a general rule, the people getting outlandish half-mil-a-year offers from big tech companies are domain experts, and the people on Twitter shocked and upset that they're never seeing these offers are either (a) generalists or (b) people who have chosen to specialize on the craft of programming, rather than a domain to which programming can be applied.
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Nov 17, 2017 20:44
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Good Will Hrunting posted:How'd you manage? I convinced myself that I was an outlier because many people had worked successfully for BigTechCo for years, and they seemed to thrive there. Some did solid 9-5 hrs, and some seemed to be successful despite no evidence that they actually did any work. Yet the company has pretty high staff turnover, and once I left I was invited to join a "BigTechCo Survivors Group" (only half tongue in cheek) of ex-staffers who'd also been put through the wringer.
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Nov 17, 2017 21:05
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I like stories like this, but sorry that you had to live it. Sometimes I have imposter syndrome where I don't necessarily feel like I'm stupider or worse at the tech stuff but that I'm worse at accomplishing work productively for some reason and I'm not doing enough, whether it's my fault or not. It makes me insanely stressed lately, but hearing things in this thread humanizes experienced devs who have, for the most part, felt superhuman to me at times in understand of large scale systems or breadth and depth of knowledge and the like.
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Nov 18, 2017 00:02
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Love Stole the Day posted:Re: $$$ This. You're not getting those offers for CRUD applications or slinging javascript.
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Nov 18, 2017 00:11
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