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LDS is not considered a christian church by anyone but LDS and a handful of atheists. If you haven't been on the receiving end of religious discrimination for being from a "weird" religion it is hard to explain, but basically depending on where you are from you get treated like poo poo by your classmates as a kid for having the wrong belief system, but people don't think that experience is valid because you aren't Jewish or Middle Eastern/Asian Muslim or something with an ethnic component. If a synagogue or mosque had the same trouble getting permitted everyone would agree it was a clear cut case of discrimination. If a baptist congregation was building a church it probably wouldn't have any trouble in the first place.
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Nov 17, 2017 21:30
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I can't stand it when something as simple as floor naming/numbering gets politicized. I'm working on a building now that has a basement. It's very much a basement, it's fully below grade, there are no windows, it's 90% parking but there's a little church office meeting room and hall in it and the church doesn't want to say anyone has to work in something as humiliating as a "basement" so they want to call it Level 1. What's above level 1? Level 2? No, that's the "Main floor", then above the main floor is level 2 and 3 and so on. This makes is very confusing for programming the fire alarm and for arriving fire fighters. It got so bad with poo poo like this in Vancouver where for marketing or superstitious reasons they were calling floors really stupid non-intuitive poo poo and omitting any floor number with a 4 in it or 13 or any possible combo of numbers that might be unlucky to any cultural group on the face of the earth with enough money to buy a condo in Vancouver. Eventually the fire department had to come in and demand people to just sequentially list floors properly, call a basement a basement, call only the top floor the penthouse and so on. I wish we could get a ruling like that here.
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Nov 17, 2017 21:46
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therobit posted:LDS is not considered a christian church by anyone but LDS and a handful of atheists.
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Nov 17, 2017 22:18
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my homeboy have i ever lectured a thread at length about the minuscule things that trigger christians and various sub sects of Christianity into assuming the end times have arrived and that inevitably they shall have to accept the mark of the beast or die for their beliefs? i still shouldnt.
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Nov 17, 2017 22:23
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Yawgmoth posted:mormons complaining about discrimination is kind of ironic given their doctrines and history I am not, nor have I ever been a Mormon.
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Nov 17, 2017 22:39
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Baronjutter posted:I can't stand it when something as simple as floor naming/numbering gets politicized. I'm working on a building now that has a basement. It's very much a basement, it's fully below grade, there are no windows, it's 90% parking but there's a little church office meeting room and hall in it and the church doesn't want to say anyone has to work in something as humiliating as a "basement" so they want to call it Level 1. What's above level 1? Level 2? No, that's the "Main floor", then above the main floor is level 2 and 3 and so on. This makes is very confusing for programming the fire alarm and for arriving fire fighters. It got so bad with poo poo like this in Vancouver where for marketing or superstitious reasons they were calling floors really stupid non-intuitive poo poo and omitting any floor number with a 4 in it or 13 or any possible combo of numbers that might be unlucky to any cultural group on the face of the earth with enough money to buy a condo in Vancouver. Eventually the fire department had to come in and demand people to just sequentially list floors properly, call a basement a basement, call only the top floor the penthouse and so on. I wish we could get a ruling like that here. "Lower Ground", my friend. I work in a hospital with all the theatres on level lower ground, because apparently surgery in a basement has a serial killer vibe.
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Nov 17, 2017 22:41
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Leocadia posted:apparently surgery in a basement has a serial killer vibe.
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Nov 17, 2017 22:48
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therobit posted:LDS is not considered a christian church by anyone but LDS and a handful of atheists. That’s all pretty true but probably a synagogue or mosque would get grief in the same areas the Mormons do. Concentric circles away from SLC are less and less concerned with Mormons and also less and less culturally homogenous.
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Nov 17, 2017 22:51
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Yawgmoth posted:You can't spell basement without semen! Well poo poo! There's one more thing I can't un-see.
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Nov 17, 2017 23:01
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therobit posted:I am not, nor have I ever been a Mormon. They actually baptized you by proxy. You must have missed the mailer.
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Nov 17, 2017 23:02
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Ashcans posted:They actually baptized you by proxy. You must have missed the mailer. I thought that was just holocaust victims.
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Nov 17, 2017 23:03
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Leperflesh posted:It's all still scams on top of scams, difficult to turn back into real money, shady exchanges and market makers, Legit question: there are actually MMs? I find that hard to believe considering the stories of people trying to cash out. I get than each exchange acts like a mini MM to their own customers to make it look like they aren't complicit scam artists.
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Nov 18, 2017 00:30
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That said I don't like a lot of Mormon doctrine from what I know about it but pulling legal bullshit to try to keep churches from being built is horrific. It's not like Scientology where it's absolutely 100% a cult and always a cult because the cultiness is built in as a feature, not a bug, and I feel like being able to build and maintain places of worship is a religious right, as long as it's not causing undue trouble, like if the construction was literally physically unsafe. I remember when people were getting really upset about a Mosque being planned to be built near Ground Zero... as if the members of the congregation of that planned mosque were involved in the terror attacks? It was nuts. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 01:38
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My HVAC buddy just found this amazing specimen 
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Nov 18, 2017 02:14
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Motronic posted:Legit question: there are actually MMs? I find that hard to believe considering the stories of people trying to cash out. I get than each exchange acts like a mini MM to their own customers to make it look like they aren't complicit scam artists. I guess I was referring to those exchanges. Although... http://thereformedbroker.com/2017/11/07/can-bitcoin-be-tamed/ also, places like this: https://hitbtc.com/mm are actually creating a platform for market makers, so I'm presuming they exist too, but have not done the research.
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Nov 18, 2017 02:16
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there wolf posted:It gets better. Apparently the owner of the Cheesecake Factory is part of a niche religion whose plans for a new house of worship ran afoul of a glorified HOA. I mean, if a bunch of rich old white dudes wanted to build their 66,000 square foot underground apocalypse bunker (nominally disguised as a place of worship) in my neighborhood, I wouldn't be particularly happy either. Coasterphreak fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 02:17
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Coasterphreak posted:I mean, if a bunch of rich old white dudes wanted to build their 66,000 square foot underground apocalypse bunker (nominally described as a place of worship) in my neighborhood, I wouldn't be particularly happy either.  People shouldn’t block churches just because they’re churches, but churches also shouldn’t be given special allowances. I mean, there are places where George Lucas can’t build a movie studio. They’re going to oppose any and all new construction.
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Nov 18, 2017 02:27
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Pretty much if you have a neighborhood full of detached one- and two-story houses and someone wants to build a large construction of any kind there, it's going to face opposition and need to be very well justified. And giving churches an absolute exemption to residential zoning is also not super cool. Why can't any particular church be built in commercially-zoned space?
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Nov 18, 2017 02:34
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Platystemon posted:I mean, there are places where George Lucas can’t build a movie studio. They’re going to oppose any and all new construction. That was my favorite. Lucas wanted to build an expansion to Skywalker Ranch, he'd have preserved green space and made it look real nice and tried to play along. The neighbors said "gently caress you, we're not going to let you do what you want with your own property because we're snooty rich fucks," so Lucas said "gently caress you right back, I'm gonna just sell it to a developer for low-income housing." Leperflesh posted:Why can't any particular church be built in commercially-zoned space? Because worship is really important to people and even people who are too poor or infirm to regularly travel to commercially-zoned space have a right to practice their religion. Look in cities all over the world and you will find churches adjacent to residences, why the hell should lily-white suburbs be exempt? Phanatic fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 03:09
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Phanatic posted:That was my favorite. Lucas wanted to build an expansion to Skywalker Ranch, he'd have preserved green space and made it look real nice and tried to play along. The neighbors said "gently caress you, we're not going to let you do what you want with your own property because we're snooty rich fucks," so Lucas said "gently caress you right back, I'm gonna just sell it to a developer for low-income housing." Even better, when funding fell through he decided to fund the entire development himself.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:19
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Phanatic posted:Because worship is really important to people and even people who are too poor or infirm to regularly travel to commercially-zoned space have a right to practice their religion. Look in cities all over the world and you will find churches adjacent to residences, why the hell should lily-white suburbs be exempt? I like mixed zoning as much as the next guy, but I don’t see why people have any more of a right to have a church nextdoor than to have a bakery or a barbershop or a hardware store.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:33
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Platystemon posted:I like mixed zoning as much as the next guy, but I don’t see why people have any more of a right to have a church nextdoor than to have a bakery or a barbershop or a hardware store. Some churches DO operate as businesses, but that's the exception, not the rule.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:50
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Platystemon posted:I like mixed zoning as much as the next guy, but I don’t see why people have any more of a right to have a church nextdoor than to have a bakery or a barbershop or a hardware store. Because there is a federal law that literally waives residential zoning for them? Edit: Also, because in practice zoning variances will nearly always be granted for religious in-groups, but rarely for religious out-groups, so if you just say "well the zoning laws should just be followed" you will create a situation where mainline protestants and evangelicals get favorable treatment, and other religious groups get the shaft. therobit fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 03:52
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"I want the government to block the church being built here because it will ruin the neighborhood" - someone I never want as a neighbor
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Nov 18, 2017 04:36
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canyoneer posted:"I want the government to block the church being built here because it will ruin the neighborhood" - someone I never want as a neighbor Exactly.
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Nov 18, 2017 04:50
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Me too, but you could replace "church" with "strip club" and I'd pretty much feel the same way. What I love is when the airport I do a lot of work at which has been there since the 1950s gets noise complaints from people who moved into the adjacent housing development that sprung up in 2005.
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Nov 18, 2017 05:10
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Phanatic posted:What I love is when the airport I do a lot of work at which has been there since the 1950s gets noise complaints from people who moved into the adjacent housing development that sprung up in 2005. The same thing happens when people build houses next to racetracks.  Track built in the middle of nowhere on cheap land, becomes popular, people buy land and build next to it so they live near racetrack. They sell house, people move in, complain about noise.
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Nov 18, 2017 05:40
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See also where race tracks like laguna seca had been around for years. New homes are built around them and now there are noise restrictions so the new neighbors don't want to hear race cars racing around.
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Nov 18, 2017 05:47
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Phanatic posted:What I love is when the airport I do a lot of work at which has been there since the 1950s gets noise complaints from people who moved into the adjacent housing development that sprung up in 2005. This is a tricky one because yes the airport was there but the pattern and type of air traffic might have changed. For example, I used to live in Ealing in west London, and it is east of and on the flight path for Heathrow, which is one of the busiest airports in the world. Planes make the most noise when they're taking off, they don't make huge amounts when they're landing, they also have to take off and land into the wind. So when the winds are westerly the planes are landing over Ealing and don't make too much noise. When they're easterly the planes have to take off over Ealing and are hugely loud because they're at 2000ft as they went over my house. Ealing gets Easterly winds about 25% of the month. There were restrictions about when flights were permitted during easterly winds but of course restricted flights means less money and the airlines weren't happy about that, so they've slowly been creeping up the permitted flight times until nearly 1am by allowing delayed flights to bypass the 11:30pm limit. So yes the locals moved into an area which has had an airport since 1930, but things change, and sometimes their complaints are valid.
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Nov 18, 2017 05:56
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Jaded Burnout posted:This is a tricky one because yes the airport was there but the pattern and type of air traffic might have changed. Moving in next door to Laguna Seca and then complaining that you can hear racecars is still dumb, though.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:17
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It’s kind of lovely to suppress the surrounding property for free. If the race track wanted the surrounding land to stay empty forever, they should have bought the surrounding land. But the cattle that were there in 1950 didn’t care like the residents do now. Still, if you knowingly bought a house by a race track, I don’t have a lot of sympathy. You got a good deal on that house because of the noise situation. Now you want to force the track out, have your cake and eat it too. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 06:22
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Platystemon posted:It’s kind of lovely to suppress the surrounding property for free. I don't think it is about "supressing" the surrounding property. They aren't saying "don't let residential homes be built here" but rather "let us use this land the way we have for years before these residents moved in."
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Nov 18, 2017 06:27
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When I bought my house I visited 4-5 times through the whole process. Once I got the keys and was unloading essentials from the car, a plane in landing approach to the local airport flew overhead. I couldn't believe I forgot about the drat thing. It's noticable but not super obtrusive. Almost soothing like a train passing by a few blocks away.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:32
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Jaded Burnout posted:This is a tricky one because yes the airport was there but the pattern and type of air traffic might have changed. I don't complain about racetracks or airports, but the airport near me is probably going to duplicate its main runway and close the cross runway. I'm a bit annoyed about that because it means now we will get aircraft noise in all conditions rather than just ~60% of the time.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:37
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Racetrack/airport chat: airpotsare run by the feds, and racetracks sometimes have enough money/ impact on the local ecomony to be able to tell the new neighbors to gently caress off. Not so much for most shooting ranges in the same predicament. I miss my family's private "range"/hunting land -- was down in the floodplain of a river next to the old city dump so the neighbor problem didn't come up, right across the street from the police shooting range, so any complaints there were went to the city. Also if we forgot/ran out of targets we could just go to the edge of our property and scrounge up an old water heater or whatever from the landfill.  . Alas, the uncle who owned it sold it when he retired.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:49
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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Enourmo posted:Moving in next door to Laguna Seca and then complaining that you can hear racecars is still dumb, though. Agreed. Also I stayed at an airbnb near Laguna Seca during a race day and it's fine.
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Nov 18, 2017 07:11
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Churches used to actually mostly just serve the local area and needed to be built where needed in residential areas so everyone could easily walk there. But for the most part in these horrible car-centric suburbs some mega-church built in the middle of some random subdivision isn't serving the local area, its serving the whole city and people drive in. I'm fine with churches going into suburban residential areas, but there should be square footage and parking maximums to what would be reasonable for a local church serving the neighbourhood, not a mega-church serving the region, which can attract as much traffic as a big box store. If your church is mostly serving the neighbourhood and most people can walk, great. If most people will be driving, build it somewhere more commercial or with better transit and road access. It's like the difference between a corner store and a big box complex.
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Nov 18, 2017 07:33
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Yeah, it's not entirely unreasonable to oppose the construction of a giant megachurch in your quiet residential neighborhood, because those things are enormous and create huge amounts of car traffic.
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Nov 18, 2017 08:05
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PetraCore posted:Because churches are not supposed to be businesses. It's different. Is there any reasonable* definition of business that doesn't include about 100% of churches? *) An example of an unreasonable definition would be one that includes something to the effect of "except for churches". Phanatic posted:What I love is when the airport I do a lot of work at which has been there since the 1950s gets noise complaints from people who moved into the adjacent housing development that sprung up in 2005. My former boss said there was an awful row when people new to their neighbourhood wanted the fire engines to stop using their sirens when departing because it made an awful noise  I guess there was a loving reason why the only lots left un-built until the 2000s were the ones near the god drat fire station but it was too much for them to figure it out beforehand.
3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 13:22
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Jerry Cotton posted:Is there any reasonable* definition of business that doesn't include about 100% of churches? Businesses provide customers with goods and/or services in exchange for money. Yes, churches take collections, and they can be scummy about it, but the line between “take money” and “provide services” is generally much less direct. You could argue that they’re on a continuum, but the overlapping grey area isn’t “about 100%”.
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Nov 18, 2017 13:35
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