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QuarkJets posted:Most people buying apples aren't speculating on apple prices and hoping to turn a quick profit, they're just buying apples. But most people buying bitcoin are just speculating on bitcoin prices. That's the most widely advertised and most common use case for bitcoins: selling them to the next person as a way of becoming rich quick Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 03:07
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lol same thing
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Nov 18, 2017 03:32
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Tiberius Christ posted:lol same thing
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Nov 18, 2017 03:32
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The only spendable USD in the system is that which people, further "down" the chain as it were, put in.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:33
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Drax the Destroyer posted:you have to degrade the meaning of "ponzi scheme" to argue that bitcoin trading is a ponzi scheme. it's a speculative bubble driven by euphoria and the belief that bitcoin represents a financial paradigm shift.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:42
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Uranium 235 posted:you have to degrade the meaning of "ponzi scheme" to argue that bitcoin trading is a ponzi scheme. it's a speculative bubble driven by euphoria and the belief that bitcoin represents a financial paradigm shift. A ponzi scheme is any system in which older investors are simply being paid by revenue gained from new investors, rather than via some other form of economic activity. A dude buying oranges isn't investing in a ponzi scheme, because oranges have legitimate uses besides just resale. Even if he just sells them to someone else for a profit, eventually, those oranges are going to get used somehow. This is common for commodities. A dude buying bitcoins is hoping to be able to sell those bitcoins later for a profit. That's by far the most common use case. People buying tokens in a ponzi scheme are hoping for the same thing: they want to trade those tokens to a future investor for more than what they paid for them. Any other uses of bitcoin are negligible in volume.
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Nov 18, 2017 04:14
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Other common characteristics of ponzi schemes: -- Promoters of the scheme encourage people to keep their money in the system (HODL!!!) -- Investors are encouraged to focus their energy on attracting new investors (see years of proselytizing, reddit brigading, etc) -- Commonly people recruiting into the scheme take advantage of investors with little or no knowledge of the product (bitcoin is the future of money, claiming no fees when fees are actually huge, claiming transactions are instant when truly they are not)
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Nov 18, 2017 04:22
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what you're describing is just a speculative bubble, not a ponzi scheme. a ponzi scheme has a central operator who promises to manage investments and generate profits at low risk to the investors, but is really just paying out early investors with the money from later rounds of investors. the SEC has a page on ponzi schemes and it does not describe bitcoin https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersponzihtm.html there have been ponzi schemes involving bitcoin and the SEC has taken some of those down and hit them with huge fines. if bitcoin itself were a ponzi then i don't think bitcoin exchanges would be licensed to operate in the US, but they are examples of bitcoin ponzis: https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2013-132 https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2017/lr23852.htm bitconnect is probably one that will blow up someday Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 05:31
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The whole lie with btc is that "if you bought them years ago..." If you bought them, they would have been stolen/frozen years ago.
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Nov 18, 2017 05:47
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Uranium 235 posted:what you're describing is just a speculative bubble, not a ponzi scheme. a ponzi scheme has a central operator who promises to manage investments and generate profits at low risk to the investors, but is really just paying out early investors with the money from later rounds of investors. the SEC has a page on ponzi schemes and it does not describe bitcoin https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersponzihtm.html semantics sha256mantics my dude bitscoin is structurally ponzi-esque by design from its minting and mining difficulty algorithm. even if you exclude external economics completely, satoshi had implemented a backwards rear end distribution method that exploits the masses and the majority of users to benefit the smallest user group of the software who acquired the bulk of the "limited" supply of pogs in the brief window of time where a 60w cpu could produce hundreds of coins per week
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Nov 18, 2017 05:48
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Computer Serf posted:satoshi had implemented a backwards rear end distribution method that exploits the masses and the majority of users to benefit the smallest user group of the software who acquired the bulk of the "limited" supply of pogs in the brief window of time where a 60w cpu could produce hundreds of coins per week
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Nov 18, 2017 05:57
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Uranium 235 posted:what you're describing is just a speculative bubble, not a ponzi scheme. a ponzi scheme has a central operator who promises to manage investments and generate profits at low risk to the investors, but is really just paying out early investors with the money from later rounds of investors. the SEC has a page on ponzi schemes and it does not describe bitcoin https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersponzihtm.html Using the SEC's definition you can basically call Bitcoin a Decentralized Ponzi; it has no central organizer managing funds but that's it, that's the minor difference that you've had to peg your argument on. Bitcoin hits nearly all of the other warning signs: 1) Investment returns are based purely on money flowing into the system rather than some other form of economic activity (aka old investors are being paid by the new) 2) Huge returns in short time frames with claims of little to no risk (See /r/bitcoin) with no regard for overall market conditions (the BCH fork, China ending all exchange activity, transaction clog for weeks on end) 3) Old investors focus on drawing in new money in order to keep the scheme going (See /r/bitcoin) 4) Collapse when the flow of new money stops (see MtGox) 5) Strong encouragement to keep your investment within the scheme rather than ever withdrawing it (HODL! Also see the recent poll where the average bitcoiner would refuse selling until $200k/btc)
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Nov 18, 2017 06:35
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You could say that bitcoin is disrupting the ponzi scheme "I call it a Ponzi with no one in charge. There's no Madoff, but it's working that way.” -- Currency expert Jim Rickards QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 06:37
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vortmax posted:I don't get this idea that credit card fees are high. I use Square for my store, and I pay 2.75% per transaction. Considering about half my income is via card payments, it's well worth the fee to be able to accept Visa, Master Card, AmEx, & Discover credit and debit cards. (And I know the fee won't change from day to day because of network clogging.) Square is both averaging the processing cost across different tiers and taking advantage of the huge volume of processing they do to wrangle better rates. A low volume business directly processing credit cards into their own merchant account using a card processing gateway exposes them to all kinds of differing crazy tiers depending on what kinds of cards are being used. For example, I did a breakdown for a business i work with to show them how insane the former was versus getting something like Square going instead. On their statement they had: code:To be clear: I'm not in any way shape or form arguing that bitcoin is better - it's a cesspool. Just wanted to provide a glimpse into how CC processing works. It's also notable that this is purely the card processing fee breakdown - this doesn't include any fees related to the payment gateway or the merchant account. H2SO4 fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 07:22
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Ponzi schemes are better than Bitcoin because at least the operators aren't throwing insane amounts of electricity into the garbage
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Nov 18, 2017 07:28
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extra stout posted:taking off my expensive fur coat i explain to a woman at the bar "i invested heavily into bitcoin- and early" This is what Ham Sandwiches makes fun of goons for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdyC_QEqN1U That card's one of many. It's really not 2013, it takes about an extra 10 seconds in most of the world to pay with crypto if you want to nobody does because bubble and because the tax consequences are awful in the US and a chunk of the rest of the world One other way in which it's not 2013 is that it's no longer possible to claim it's a ponzi. It was a good run but we lost. There are way too many people who have invested their whole lives into this living breathing Internet meme for it to ever go back to normal and even if/when it corrects 90% there will still be thousands of ICOs with tens of millions in fiat that spend time doing nothing but coding blockchain improvements and taking BTC in fees waiting for the next boom. The subset of cases where BTC and friends are genuinely useful IRL is slowly but surely expanding as a result. It's here to stay for no other reason but because it's reached critical mass. Still can't believe we lost this war but yeah it was over a year ago.
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Nov 18, 2017 11:15
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it being a big ponzi doesnt make it not a ponzi and you can try to use bitcoin to purchase something (from a merchant who themselves is not touching the poop and only using an intermediary) if you go out of your way to do so (for ...reasons?)
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Nov 18, 2017 11:32
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if the whole point of trying to pay with cryptocoin in a 1st world country is to avoid building a credit history good luck with that. but seriously why would i want to? do the fanatics realize that actually using (not investing in) cryptocoins is a superfluous thing that is no interest to almost anyone with money
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Nov 18, 2017 11:37
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gary oldmans diary posted:if the whole point of trying to pay with cryptocoin in a 1st world country is to avoid building a credit history good luck with that. but seriously why would i want to? do the fanatics realize that actually using (not investing in) cryptocoins is a superfluous thing that is no interest to almost anyone with money I live in the UK with family in the US. When I want to send money to them and back, my options are a bank wire (3-5% or worse currency conversion + a 3-4 business day wait), or something like https://www.abra.com that charges about a fifth of that or less and sends instantly by using buttcoins instead of SWIFT. I can also do it myself and skip the middleman if I'm willing to stomach several hours of exposure to BTC or ETH price fluctuations. Because of the bubble and the second bubble on top of the first one no one cares about this, but it's here to stay forever even after the bubbles themselves implode. Sending huge amounts of money online instantly for free is a massive innovation that needed a collective delusion to take off, but because the delusion happened this use case will go on even if BTC itself is $100 and ETH is back to  . Online gambling is another big one that will be more important in the US over time; it's already huge in Europe and every major player is probably going to be using some version of a blockchain both for games and for payments in the next decade. Unlike the first two I know nothing about supply chain management, but everyone in that industry is going nuts over blockchain as well and they're all going to wind up as ETH tokens. It's certainly the biggest set of bubbles I've ever seen in my life, but fifty years from now when you want to send a micropayment online it's going to be done using some version of a cryptocurrency even if it's completely invisible to the end user.
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Nov 18, 2017 13:27
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Adar posted:One other way in which it's not 2013 is that it's no longer possible to claim it's a ponzi. It was a good run but we lost. There are way too many people who have invested their whole lives into this living breathing Internet meme for it to ever go back to normal and even if/when it corrects 90% there will still be thousands of ICOs with tens of millions in fiat that spend time doing nothing but coding blockchain improvements and taking BTC in fees waiting for the next boom. The subset of cases where BTC and friends are genuinely useful IRL is slowly but surely expanding as a result. It's here to stay for no other reason but because it's reached critical mass. Still can't believe we lost this war but yeah it was over a year ago. Enumerate them Enumerate the cases where bitcoin is more useful than a Visa card in real life. Name 5 Also, a ponzi scheme doesn't being a ponzi scheme just because it's popular. Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme ran for nearly a decade and took in $100B in investments
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Nov 18, 2017 14:03
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How much does stuff like Venmo and Zelle cost to use? Isn't that instant payment?
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Nov 18, 2017 14:25
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Adar posted:I live in the UK with family in the US. When I want to send money to them and back, my options are
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Nov 18, 2017 14:36
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Adar posted:I live in the UK with family in the US. When I want to send money to them and back, my options are a bank wire (3-5% or worse currency conversion + a 3-4 business day wait), or something like https://www.abra.com that charges about a fifth of that or less and sends instantly by using buttcoins instead of SWIFT. I can also do it myself and skip the middleman if I'm willing to stomach several hours of exposure to BTC or ETH price fluctuations. Ethereum recently upgraded their transaction speed and they complete in minutes now. If you need to send money overseas then just use eth if it's an option
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Nov 18, 2017 14:51
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Adar posted:I live in the UK with family in the US. When I want to send money to them and back, my options are a bank wire (3-5% or worse currency conversion + a 3-4 business day wait), or something like https://www.abra.com that charges about a fifth of that or less and sends instantly by using buttcoins instead of SWIFT. I can also do it myself and skip the middleman if I'm willing to stomach several hours of exposure to BTC or ETH price fluctuations. QuarkJets posted:Enumerate them really?
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Nov 18, 2017 14:53
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Gumbel2Gumbel posted:How much does stuff like Venmo and Zelle cost to use? Isn't that instant payment? gary oldmans diary posted:in all your searching you never found a conventional way to send money for free? seriously Venmo doesn't support multiple currencies and Zelle is US only. There's no such thing as free when dealing with traditional currency transfers. The best you can do is something like Transferwise but even they have no advantages over Abra (last I used them it cost about 2% over the market rate) / work much slower. Uranium 235 posted:Ethereum recently upgraded their transaction speed and they complete in minutes now. If you need to send money overseas then just use eth if it's an option Yeah I use ETH IRL, buttcoins are even dumb/annoying within the crypto universe
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Nov 18, 2017 14:54
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That app you linked, TenX, doesn't come out until 2019 at best. Most of the reviews I'm reading talk more about the "investment" opportunities of the ICO they offered and how the yet another new token they created might be valued and the other reviews about actually using it mention how buggy the software is and that its still in a very rough alpha/beta stage. You aren't going to walk up to McDonalds and buy a sack of burgers with any cryptocurrency any time soon.
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Nov 18, 2017 15:04
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How many cryptocurrencies are there, and what percentage of the money in the market is known to be stolen/frozen?
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Nov 18, 2017 15:05
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obsidian440 posted:That app you linked, TenX, doesn't come out until 2019 at best. Most of the reviews I'm reading talk more about the "investment" opportunities of the ICO they offered and how the yet another new token they created might be valued and the other reviews about actually using it mention how buggy the software is and that its still in a very rough alpha/beta stage. You aren't going to walk up to McDonalds and buy a sack of burgers with any cryptocurrency any time soon. There are a few different things being conflated here. First off, TenX has been shipping cards for months while lots of other providers have been shipping them for years. It's very easy to get a crypto card anywhere in the EU (can't speak for the rest of the world). I guess I could ask my friend with a card (cryptopay.me) to record him going into a McDonalds with it, although it's sort of a weird question to ask for Internet argument points. That said, a)ICOs are a whole other bubble on top of the first one and I only linked that particular video because I remembered it, b)nobody in their right mind is going to use a crypto card in the US or as a US citizen while doing your taxes correctly involves FIFO accounting on every individual coin spent, and c)as I said earlier nobody's spending crypto anyway because captains of industry. Gumbel2Gumbel posted:How many cryptocurrencies are there, and what percentage of the money in the market is known to be stolen/frozen? there are two 'major' cryptos that might one day evolve into something resembling a currency / that you can use to pay for things today there are a half dozen others that are sort of weird offshoots of those two and some places will let you buy with actual money that aren't as useful and then there are about a thousand, soon to be 100,000, various flavors of tokens used for mostly scammy companies to do mostly scammy things where, out of those 100,000, a handful will one day be well recognized names (and because everyone in crypto is a captain of industry they all think they know the right ones)
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Nov 18, 2017 15:22
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Adar posted:and then there are about a thousand, soon to be 100,000, various flavors of tokens used for mostly scammy companies to do mostly scammy things where, out of those 100,000, a handful will one day be well recognized names (and because everyone in crypto is a captain of industry they all think they know the right ones) look I realise that this looks very like a fleet of dumptrucks full of horseshit but you have to understand with such stupendous quantities of horseshit the statistical odds are there will totally be a pony in there somewhere,
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Nov 18, 2017 15:32
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Adar posted:There are a few different things being conflated here. First off, TenX has been shipping cards for months while lots of other providers have been shipping them for years. It's very easy to get a crypto card anywhere in the EU (can't speak for the rest of the world). I guess I could ask my friend with a card (cryptopay.me) to record him going into a McDonalds with it, although it's sort of a weird question to ask for Internet argument points. So the example is 100% correct for Americans still? I have some internet fun bucks that have grown in "value" over the past few months and I'd like to turn them into physical goods. My options appear to be drugs (pretty good option, why I moved a large % of my crypto basket to Monero), Newegg.com (not a bad option) and overstock.com for overpriced old junk. But I probably shouldn't because of taxes and there is nothing that can do it for other companies right now anyway. Is that fair, if not overly simplified?
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Nov 18, 2017 15:33
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divabot posted:look I realise that this looks very like a fleet of dumptrucks full of horseshit but you have to understand with such stupendous quantities of horseshit the statistical odds are there will totally be a pony in there somewhere, talking about buttcoin and its immediate relatives is weird because the truth really is in the middle and it's a lot closer to 1999 internet than tulips, although literally only because enough people spent enough time believing in it the ICO bubble is...a whole other thing obsidian440 posted:So the example is 100% correct for Americans still? if you wanted to turn it into actual money it would be trivial but if you want to turn it directly into stuff without touching money along the way, US tax law makes it complicated. in short - if you bought a buttcoin a year ago and havent touched it since so you have one single purchase price, knock yourself out if you bought and sold different amounts of buttcoins over time, you will thoroughly gently caress yourself over if you do this the easiest thing to do if you're in the second group is probably to use all of them on a single item, say a car, so you at least somewhat limit your recordkeeping. http://spendbitcoins.com/places/c/car-dealers/serving/All has a bunch of car dealers who take them, you could go with any of those. I would avoid buying drugs in general but yes there's certainly a large overlap between Monero owners and people whom other people find dead of an overdose with no prior signs of anything bad happening
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Nov 18, 2017 16:15
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H2SO4 posted:Square is both averaging the processing cost across different tiers and taking advantage of the huge volume of processing they do to wrangle better rates. A low volume business directly processing credit cards into their own merchant account using a card processing gateway exposes them to all kinds of differing crazy tiers depending on what kinds of cards are being used. For example, I did a breakdown for a business i work with to show them how insane the former was versus getting something like Square going instead. On their statement they had: That poo poo is exactly why I went with Square. None of this percentage + amount fees, no tiers, it's very simple and straightforward. (There are higher fees for transactions other than swipe/dip, but that's also straightforward.) There's a gas station at the other end of the strip mall from my store that has multiple card terminals they switch out depending on time of day and type of card, and I don't need that nightmare. You could say Square and PayPal are actually disrupting the credit card processors. 
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Nov 18, 2017 16:35
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Adar posted:talking about buttcoin and its immediate relatives is weird because the truth really is in the middle and it's a lot closer to 1999 internet than tulips, although literally only because enough people spent enough time believing in it no, this is a specious comparison that assumes its conclusion. stop making it. you can say that "IF we assume that Bitcoin is comparable to, ooh ... literally the greatest revolution in human communication since the printing press" - but you're clearly pulling the biggest example possible out of your backside. you're assuming your conclusion by positing Bitcoin as anything other than negligible in comparison to it. why not compare it to the many, many more failed technologies? "bitcoin is a lot closer to Apple eWorld" "bitcoin is a lot closer to Tesla's wireless power transmission towers, that he never actually built" "bitcoin is a lot closer to the Ford Pinto gas tank" these comparisons are all of the same form, and I'd say they're a lot closer to being valid.
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Nov 18, 2017 16:54
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divabot posted:no, this is a specious comparison that assumes its conclusion. stop making it. the vast majority of ICOs are probably going to be worth nothing in the end, and we don't know yet which, if any, will survive. people who are dumping money into ICOs for long-term investments are making a big gamble. a lot of them are already down by double-digit percentages and may never break even on some of the projects. you seem to be concluding that they will all fail, which might be right, but imo there will be a few gems that produce something valuable. people into fundamentals can try to dig for those, but i'm going to stick to my strategy of trading in a crazily volatile market with little regard to fundamentals. if they all fail then that's fine with me
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Nov 18, 2017 18:15
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Uranium 235 posted:i think the comparison is apt because the internet bubble, like the ICO bubble, saw massive increase in speculative value of projects that were really nothing more than an idea and a team of developers (and a .com address) that mostly all failed and collapsed into nothingness, wiping out billions of dollars of "wealth" This aspect makes an appropriate comparison to Beanie Babies - you're talking about it being a bubble. Or, to be more specific, the sort of ridiculous enterprises that were founded during the South Sea Bubble, with about as much substance as the modern ICO. The actual productive result of that was the Bubble Act, where you weren't allowed to found a joint stock company without Royal assent. But I think "but look what the ICO revolution gave us - stringent regulation!!" is stretching a bit far to claim that this is a good thing about cryptos, rather than dealing with the huge problems they cause. Uranium 235 posted:you seem to be concluding that they will all fail, which might be right, but imo there will be a few gems that produce something valuable. people into fundamentals can try to dig for those, but i'm going to stick to my strategy of trading in a crazily volatile market with little regard to fundamentals. if they all fail then that's fine with me it is certainly true that the horseshit probably emerged from a horse's rear end, but that doesn't mean that stocking up on horseshit by the truckload will do much for your chances at a pony. divabot fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 18:59
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there are two different bubbles, one on top of each other. bitcoin is the most widely adopted example of blockchain technology. it is very clearly in a bubble of its own, but after several years of a critical mass of individuals basically enabling each other, the bitcoin blockchain along with ETH and maybe 1-2 others are likely at a point where they have some inherent utility (i.e. will never hit zero simply because enough people will spend the rest of their lives mining them and trading with each other no matter what). in the meantime, it turns out that a distributed worldwide ledger with a critical mass of belief is pretty useful for a number of so far niche applications with the potential for far more to come, i.e. - -sending money internationally without massive foreign currency fees -any company or entire industry that credit cards won't deal with or charge huge fees to can process deposits for free -https://etherscan.io/tx/0xfb98570cd05ece3b773a8165a9f55db376d4a548d8cab32d9109d3b0eb0fa97e this guy can move 44 million dollars from A to B in 30 seconds and pay 13 cents none of these require a buttcoin to be worth $7,000 or $700 since people just need to buy/send more of them if they're worth less, but as long as the blockchain itself has enough miners protecting it and enough people who are willing to hoard the butts, it will be worth enough to build more stuff on top of and eventually it becomes (is currently becoming) a self-fulfilling prophecy, if only after another 90% drop or two or three. separately from that, ICOs are a hilarious train wreck that are amazing to trade while this lasts but will, of course, almost all fail (by the law of averages alone a few of them will probably make it but good luck blindly guessing which 3/1000). at some point a bunch of them will all collapse on top of each other and start a rush for the exits. at some other point a critical mass of countries will regulate them and an ICO in say Switzerland will become a very similar thing to an IPO today, but not before a massive pile of people lose their life savings. anyway, we both know you're not talking to a buttcoin sandwich, so stop pretending I'm picking 1999 as anything other than the last big bubble comparison and don't argue in bad faith.
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Nov 18, 2017 19:19
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what is the investment/speculative difference between bitcoin and all the other shitcoins no one wants?
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Nov 18, 2017 19:44
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Adar posted:-sending money internationally without massive foreign currency fees Of all the bad claims for Bitcoin, remittance turns out to be the closest to practical, and in practice it still isn't because neither end has a crypto-based economy. The closest I've seen to getting it working is rebit.ph, who have tried very hard to make a go of it, and they eventually had to start a crypto exchange at the Philippines end just to have enough pesos on hand for the recipients to get the money in a useful form. Also, Vitalik Buterin apparently pays some of his Eastern European outsourcees in Ether. Adar posted:-any company or entire industry that credit cards won't deal with or charge huge fees to can process deposits for free This is, again, a hypothetical that largely isn't a thing even after being touted literally for years. At this point I'd expect someone saying it to be able to articulate why that's how it's worked out that way, rather than touting an example that pretty much doesn't happen. (The Wikileaks Shop takes Bitcoin Cash! That's a merchant success story for bcash.) Adar posted:anyway, we both know you're not talking to a buttcoin sandwich, so stop pretending I'm picking 1999 as anything other than the last big bubble comparison and don't argue in bad faith. Your comparison was to the Internet. But again, why that bubble, and why not the contemporaneous Beanie Baby bubble? You're still assuming your conclusion - "if we compare it to something with good outcomes, then it might have good outcomes!" And don't tell me "don't argue in bad faith" when you're touting already-failed examples as working examples.
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Nov 18, 2017 19:53
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Adar posted:this guy can move 44 million dollars from A to B in 30 seconds and pay 13 cents No he can't. He transferred an amount of e-tulips currently valued at that much. There's still a need to find someone to convert it back to actual money before it can be used. Unless by some miracle everything he wanted was available from someone who offers payments via their chosen coin, of course. And if he uses one of those debit card services, he's looking at both fees and limits associated with it. For example, let's look at one of the ways to load it, BTC-E.  ahahaha, I don't keep on top of this poo poo and just looked at one of the "zero percent" ways to load it. Never change, ~~cryptocurrency~~. H2SO4 fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 20:03
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did anyone say buttcoin yet?
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Nov 18, 2017 20:49
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