a victory for liberty over tyranny

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > a victory for liberty over tyranny

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Nah gently caress that they should absolutely get paid their wages to be at jury duty, I would also not want to do it for free

I don't see where we disagree.

# ? Nov 19, 2017 06:44

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# ? May 27, 2024 13:11

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

I believe the issue is that you implied you don�t have sympathy for people being paid more than a few bucks an hour who are nonetheless not paid for jury duty.

nm posted:

The only real people I have sympathy with is people making a few bucks an hour whose employers won't pay for the time off.

# ? Nov 19, 2017 07:24

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Platystemon posted:

I believe the issue is that you implied you don’t have sympathy for people being paid more than a few bucks an hour who are nonetheless not paid for jury duty.

I'm not going to lose sleep if a doctor making $500k/year (many doctors are self-employed) has to make $20/day for a week.
I do agree that people on jury duty should get paid their normal wage for missed work though.

# ? Nov 19, 2017 07:30

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

nm posted:

I'm not going to lose sleep if a doctor making $500k/year (many doctors are self-employed) has to make $20/day for a week.
I do agree that people on jury duty should get paid their normal wage for missed work though.

Teachers ain't making even close to 500k a year. Have to shell out of their own pockets for supplies, and deal with poo poo head kids ave their even worse parents. So I don't get why you'd lump them in with wealthy doctors

# ? Nov 19, 2017 15:19

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

KomradeX posted:

Teachers ain't making even close to 500k a year. Have to shell out of their own pockets for supplies, and deal with poo poo head kids ave their even worse parents. So I don't get why you'd lump them in with wealthy doctors

You might be missing this line dude

nm posted:

They also get paid full salary on jury duty.

Around here at least, teachers are both union and government employees, two groups that always get full pay for jury duty.

# ? Nov 19, 2017 17:29

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Jury duty should pay 20 bucks an hour.

# ? Nov 19, 2017 17:35

Zil: Jun 4, 2011; Satanically Summoned Citrus

Pac-Manioc Root posted:

Jury duty should pay 20 bucks an hour.

Jury Duty should be a career path that people can pursue who want to be involved in law but don't or can't become a lawyer.

# ? Nov 19, 2017 22:09

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Zil posted:

Jury Duty should be a career path that people can pursue who want to be involved in law but don't or can't become a lawyer.

Oh, god, that would attract even worse people than being a lawyer.

# ? Nov 20, 2017 03:30

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3zY5SMpfaI

# ? Nov 20, 2017 03:33

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

nm posted:

Oh, god, that would attract even worse people than being a lawyer.

It'd also result in such an insanely corrupt justice system that it wouldn't be funny. Take the buddy-buddy corruption of DAs and Cops and toss in courtroom juries? gently caress that.

# ? Nov 21, 2017 00:27

Zil: Jun 4, 2011; Satanically Summoned Citrus

Evil Fluffy posted:

It'd also result in such an insanely corrupt justice system that it wouldn't be funny. Take the buddy-buddy corruption of DAs and Cops and toss in courtroom juries? gently caress that.

I did not take that into account. More of thinking of a way to stop jury nullifications if the jury were at least educated in the law.

# ? Nov 21, 2017 01:18

Ogmius815: Aug 25, 2005; centrism is a hell of a drug

But the whole point of the jury is that they don't need to know the law and perhaps shouldn't know. They're supposed to follow the instructions the court provides. If there's someone making legal arguments in the jury room, you've hosed up.

# ? Nov 21, 2017 01:22

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

We should go back to trial by combat.

# ? Nov 21, 2017 02:40

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Zil posted:

I did not take that into account. More of thinking of a way to stop jury nullifications if the jury were at least educated in the law.

Jury nullification is hardly the problem with the justice system. Wrongful convictions are far more common.
A professionally jury system would likely act more like a judge, who gets to know the das and cops (because they always come to court) v. a one off defendant. A swearing contest between a cop and a defendant has no chance in front of a judge, 9/10. A lay jury gets you closer to reasonable doubt because at least they didn't get to hear about the cop's kid's t-ball game last week.

# ? Nov 21, 2017 03:18

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

Anyone remember our old friend Gavin Seim?

quote:

Shawn Vestal: Self-described �constitutionalist� Gavin Seim flees to Mexico to avoid court

In the online world of conspiratorial patriot poseurs, Ephrata�s Gavin Seim has repeatedly cast himself as a hero, a valiant knight in battle with the tyrannical �psychopaths� of the justice system of Grant County and America itself.

Now he�s fled to Mexico, dodging a charge of obstruction of justice that arose from his repeated, petty harassment of cops on the job in Ephrata.

Seim sees his flight to Mexico in the most heroic of terms, of course. While urging people to donate to his cause.

�I, for one, refuse to lie down and live as a slave, and I will not comply with fascism,� he says in a video, posted to Facebook the day after Thanksgiving.

It�s all pretty odd, even by Seim�s high standards for oddity � particularly when you watch the Seim family load up on extra cookies at the store or enjoy a refreshing coconut water from a machete-wielding vendor in Mexico, all while Seim narrates darkly about tyranny and terrorism and corruption and his own personal valiance.

Odder still is the fact that, for once, Seim�s case has raised an actual, important legal issue: Whether courts can order defendants to unlock their smart phones.

A Grant County prosecutor has asked a judge to order Seim to provide the password for his phone. He says that evidence relating to Seim�s obstruction of a police officer � which Seim recorded, as he always does � is on the phone. Seim is defending himself in the case, naturally, and was ordered to make arguments on the motion.

So he fled to Mexico.

In the video, Seim says, �The court says, �Gavin, you have to come and argue in your defense of whether or not you should be forced.� And you know what my answer to that is? �No, I don�t.� A court that says I have to argue for my most basic and fundamental rights is not a court of law. We don�t have to lie down and submit to criminal conspiracy. We don�t have to lie down and be kicked in the head. We don�t have to walk into the gas chamber and the concentration camp.�

He�s not one for understatement.

Seim, you may recall, was the play-by-play announcer in a gripping YouTube live-stream of the final days of the Bundy clan�s bird-refuge takeover in Oregon in 2016, including the tense, desperate final hours when it seemed the last holdout might provoke his own death. Seim was one of the higher-profile patriots trying to grab their share of the drama, along with Spokane Valley Rep. Matt Shea, who visited the armed protesters on a �fact-finding� trip.

Seim has continued to beat the drums of conspiracy in Bundy World, taking up causes such as that of a Missouri �constitutionalist� blogger convicted in an armed confrontation with police.

Less widely known are Seim�s constant stream of provocations of Grant County officials, in which he picks inane, petty fights and tries to elevate them to end-of-the-world status.

He�s now charged with obstruction of justice and harassment over an altercation with an officer in a Walmart parking lot, in which he attempts to order the cop to stop questioning a woman. Seims deeply loves trying to order cops around and filming the results. A previous video of Seim picking a fight with the same officer � and attempting a citizen�s arrest � is titled �Gav Dresses Down This Bully Cop on the Street.�

Marc Fedorak, a deputy prosecutor in Grant County, filed a motion Oct. 25 asking the court to order Seim to unlock the phone, according to coverage of the case in the Columbia Basin Herald.

But: Is forcing a suspect to open a locked phone a violation of their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination?

There haven�t been many actual cases forcing the question just yet, but the early signs point to a fascinating divide. In one Virginia case, a judge found that a defendant can be compelled to unlock a phone by fingerprint, which is akin to legally compelling a DNA test or handwriting sample. But the judge ruled that forcing a defendant to reveal a password is a different matter � it requires a person to reveal knowledge, which would be protected by the Fifth Amendment.

Fedorak argues, according to the Herald report, that requiring Seim to turn over his password would not violate his Fifth Amendment right under the �foregone conclusion� doctrine, which holds that courts may compel testimony regarding evidence that is already known by prosecutors.

The issue is sure to be taken up by higher courts, eventually.

Meanwhile, Seim has fled to Mexico in an RV with his family, where he has outsourced his valiant defense against tyranny. I could not reach Fedorak directly for comment on Monday, so I couldn�t ask what Grant County�s official response to this flight would be � chase Seim, wait for his return or bid him good riddance � but this likely won�t be the last we hear from him.

The hero doesn�t disappear from his own story, after all.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/nov/28/shawn-vestal-gavin-seims-flees-to-mexico-seeks-fun/

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:51

Shalebridge Cradle: Apr 23, 2008

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

Anyone remember our old friend Gavin Seim?

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/nov/28/shawn-vestal-gavin-seims-flees-to-mexico-seeks-fun/

Why do they always flee to Mexico. We've had an extradition treaty with them since 1862. And I'm pretty sure the white guy refusing to make joinder with people is going to stick out.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 01:10

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

Shalebridge Cradle posted:

Why do they always flee to Mexico.

They're all a bunch of fuckheads.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 01:22

Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

Gavin, would you like an attorney or w-

I SHALL DEFEND MYSELF.

Okay Gavin, please defend you-

REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

# ? Nov 29, 2017 01:47

Alkydere: Jun 7, 2010; Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.

Kazak_Hstan posted:

Gavin, would you like an attorney or w-

I SHALL DEFEND MYSELF.

Okay Gavin, please defend you-

REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

More like...

Gavin, would you like an attorney or w-

I SHALL DEFEND MYSELF.

Okay Gavin, please defend you-

*Flees out the courtroom*

*sighs* Bailiff, please activate the taser on Mr. Gavin's ankle-bracelet.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 11:04

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Can someone change the title? Every time this gets bumped I think it's been updated to reflect another batch of 'em getting off.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 15:10

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

The infamous Zoidberg defense is like an acquittal. :v:

# ? Nov 29, 2017 15:11

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

GlyphGryph posted:

Can someone change the title? Every time this gets bumped I think it's been updated to reflect another batch of 'em getting off.

Done.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 18:37

Icon Of Sin: Dec 26, 2008

xthetenth posted:

The infamous Zoidberg defense is like an acquittal.

But who got sprayed with ink as Seim made the Curly noises? These claws don't scuttle away like they used to!

# ? Nov 29, 2017 20:45

brugroffil: Nov 30, 2015

https://twitter.com/FOX5Vegas/status/935979676354228224

# ? Nov 29, 2017 22:33

Shalebridge Cradle: Apr 23, 2008

brugroffil posted:

https://twitter.com/FOX5Vegas/status/935979676354228224

Yeah this seems like a good idea, what's the worst that could happen?

# ? Nov 29, 2017 22:37

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Is Klavern Bundy secretary of the interior yet?

# ? Nov 29, 2017 22:39

Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

https://mobile.twitter.com/Vanessa_Murphy/status/936014870201319425

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:37

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

I'd be sputtering with rage 13 months ago but living in this hell dimension has burned me out.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:44

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; Can't post for 2 hours!

https://twitter.com/Vanessa_Murphy/status/936028724310433792

After one of them just fled the country?

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/935543927041548289

# ? Nov 30, 2017 02:24

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

Kazak_Hstan posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Vanessa_Murphy/status/936014870201319425

My eyes saw "Bundy...execution" and I had about three seconds of overwhelming joy.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 03:00

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Discendo Vox posted:

https://twitter.com/Vanessa_Murphy/status/936028724310433792

After one of them just fled the country?

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/935543927041548289

That guys in an unrelated matter in another state.

There has been some allegations of discovery/brady related stupidity, and release is often what a judge does so the defense can review the "newly discovered" (*cough* someone hosed up or was dirty *cough* materials without outright dismissing poo poo if they think it is true.
If the feds played tricks with brady poo poo, they're loving morons and will have no one to blame but themselves.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 08:03

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Well when the Bundy clan end up with several times more supporters on their ranch for the next standoff maybe we'll get lucky and one of them will say something Trump takes as a personal offense and he'll order drone strikes against them all.

It's more likely that Trump would give Cliven the presidential medal of freedom, though.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 08:15

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

Maybe they'll do something stupid like refuse to come back and refuse to recognize the court.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 09:21

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

This isn't directly Bundy-related, but the guy who tried to bomb an airport terminal last month has been indicted.

Yes, someone tried to bomb an airport, just last month. He planted a real, working bomb, which was fortunately found and defused before it went off. When apprehended, he said he did it because he "wanted to start a war on US soil". In case you're wondering why you haven't heard about this, that's because it barely registered on the national news level, so most of the coverage has been local or regional, and even they're barely following it. Yes, even though this was a straight-up attempted terrorist attack on an airport. He's white

He's only been charged with "Attempted Malicious Use of Explosive Materials" and "Possession of Explosives at an Airport". Certainly seems like a softball list given that he tried to blow up an airport terminal in an act of deliberate terrorism, but once again, he's white.

http://wspa.com/2017/11/15/asheville-airport-bomb-suspect-indicted-on-two-charges/

quote:

A man accused of leaving an improvised explosive device at Asheville Regional Airport has been indicted by a federal grand jury.

Michael Christopher Estes was indicted on charges of Attempted Malicious Use of Explosive Materials and Possession of Explosives at an Airport.

According to the indictment, Estes left an explosive device made with Ammonium Nitrate / fuel oil (AN/FO) at Asheville Regional Airport on October 6. The criminal complaint written by an FBI agent says investigators found a mason jar containing ammonium nitrate, nails and a shotgun cartridge Friday at the Asheville airport. Authorities rendered the device safe after it was left near a terminal entrance. Estes admitted to investigators that he left he device at the Airport and that he “wanted to start a war on U.S. soil”.

The indictment says a green backpack belonging to Estes was found to contain a tactical vest, and a black tool bag with tape, gloves, Sterno Firestarter Gel, Winchester .410 gauge shotgun shells, and marbles.

Investigators also seized multiple knives and a portable radio from a black backpack.

Estes’ next court appearance is scheduled for November 22 at 9:00am.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 16:40

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; Can't post for 2 hours!

nm posted:

That guys in an unrelated matter in another state.

Seim has been organizing social media and funding resources for the Bundys.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 16:51

Zerg Mans: Oct 19, 2006

Main Paineframe posted:

This isn't directly Bundy-related, but the guy who tried to bomb an airport terminal last month has been indicted.

Yes, someone tried to bomb an airport, just last month. He planted a real, working bomb, which was fortunately found and defused before it went off. When apprehended, he said he did it because he "wanted to start a war on US soil". In case you're wondering why you haven't heard about this, that's because it barely registered on the national news level, so most of the coverage has been local or regional, and even they're barely following it. Yes, even though this was a straight-up attempted terrorist attack on an airport. He's white

He's only been charged with "Attempted Malicious Use of Explosive Materials" and "Possession of Explosives at an Airport". Certainly seems like a softball list given that he tried to blow up an airport terminal in an act of deliberate terrorism, but once again, he's white.

http://wspa.com/2017/11/15/asheville-airport-bomb-suspect-indicted-on-two-charges/

holy poo poo

# ? Nov 30, 2017 16:54

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Discendo Vox posted:

Seim has been organizing social media and funding resources for the Bundys.

The actions of your buddy aren't a valid consideration re: bail.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 16:58

1994 Toyota Celica: Sep 11, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

Discendo Vox posted:

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/935543927041548289

but any given federal judge is working with the DOJ though, same as any given DA is working with the cops

like, i get why you law and order types are real mad about the bundys slipping through the feds' fingers over and over again, but i stopped caring about that the second it became obvious the FBI prized the safety of its agents head and shoulders above the security of the people living around malheur, like the wildlife refuge workers who had bundy-associates following them around in their vehicles while the feds did nothing. i seem to recall a certain amount of crowing back then about how the FBI was obviously playing nth dimensional chess with the bundyfolk, not sitting on their hands like the bumbling, goose-stepping cowards they are. it's unrelentingly hilarious to see this irretrievably corrupt, racist, cowardly system and its worthless defenders pratfall repeatedly over their own deep-seated biases the second it tries to lock up a bunch of rural whites in what would've been a straightforward, slam-dunk of a prosecution with almost any other conceivable pool of defendants

# ? Nov 30, 2017 17:13

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Reno did nothing wrong.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 22:02

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# ? May 27, 2024 13:11

Azuth0667: Sep 20, 2011; By the word of Zoroaster, no business decision is poor when it involves Ahura Mazda.

nm posted:

That guys in an unrelated matter in another state.

There has been some allegations of discovery/brady related stupidity, and release is often what a judge does so the defense can review the "newly discovered" (*cough* someone hosed up or was dirty *cough* materials without outright dismissing poo poo if they think it is true.
If the feds played tricks with brady poo poo, they're loving morons and will have no one to blame but themselves.

What's this brady stuff?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 22:52

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