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Republicans posted:I think my main problem with the calls for Franken's removal/resignation is that the proximity with Moore in the news creates a sense of unfair false equivalence. Not just based on creepiness but there is so much else about Moore that should disqualify him from public office. Not based on my experience. Most non-Fox outlets have been talking about how there is no equivalence between the two.
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Nov 20, 2017 17:43
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lol at racesexist a single word encapsulating an entire philosophy: unconditional acceptance of the premise that minority rights exist solely as a cudgel to be wielded for political advantage, coupled to anger that someone else is currently wielding it instead of you.
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Nov 20, 2017 17:43
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WampaLord posted:"But will it solve every problem ever?" yeah the small problem is that people only draw lines in the sand when the victims are white americans its also not small
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Nov 20, 2017 17:44
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NewForumSoftware posted:its also not small It is when you try to compare it to NewForumSoftware posted:(slavery, child labor, selling weapons to dictators) Like, what do you want? Is it a big problem that we should deal with, or should we only focus on the BIG ISSUES that NFS thinks are worth focusing on?
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Nov 20, 2017 17:45
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WampaLord posted:It is when you try to compare it to No we should be morally consistent and call for the resignation of Senators who support these things, not just the ones that touch white american butts
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Nov 20, 2017 17:46
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NewForumSoftware posted:No we should be morally consistent and call for the resignation of Senators who support these things, not just the ones that touch white american butts You seem painfully naive for someone who likes to lecture others a lot.
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Nov 20, 2017 17:47
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WampaLord posted:You seem painfully naive for someone who likes to lecture others a lot. I agree, it is naive to expect Democrats to be morally consistent and I do expect to be called a garbage person for drawing a line in the sand at supporting the bombing of third world countries as well as touching butts nonconsensually. Calling for butt touching resignations: good, a thing leftists should be pursuing Calling for the resignations of genocidal maniacs: naive, a waste of time
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Nov 20, 2017 17:49
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Oakland Martini posted:I'm still firmly in favor of Franken NOT resigning. Punishment should be proportional. Molesting children is not in the same ballpark as surreptitiously grabbing an adult woman's butt for a second or taking a creepy photo. Yes, Franken is a creep. No, his behavior doesn't warrant expulsion from the Senate. Let MN voters decide what to do with Franken when he comes up for reelection. In addition to what others have said, you seem to have missed the part of the first incident where he also kissed the woman against her will and, as she put it, forced his tongue down her throat. A lot of the people against Franken resigning seem to have immediately come to a conclusion regarding the initial incident without even reading the accompanying article, since they all seem to think the photo was the only thing he did.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:04
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Just because allowing our government to get away with war crimes has been normalized doesn’t mean we should allow our senators to be sexual harassers. In a just world the entirety of Congress would be told to resign, but we don’t have that so we take what we can get.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:04
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InnercityGriot posted:Just because allowing our government to get away with war crimes has been normalized doesn’t mean we should allow our senators to be sexual harassers. In a just world the entirety of Congress would be told to resign, but we don’t have that so we take what we can get. Of course not, I'm not saying we should let the guy get away with it, he should be hanged with the rest of them. What's surprising is seeing supporters of "pragmatic" solutions come out and abandon those ideals because Franken has gone a step too far. I find it pretty amusing that the same people were fervently defending voting for Northram last week because "think of the other guy". Makes me wonder how many of these people would be calling for his head if the governor of Minnesota was a Republican.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:06
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Franken isn’t particularly hawkish but he does have questionable views on Israel/Palestine IIRC. But if that’s disqualifying, then probably the whole US Senate has to go. If we’re going to be drawing lines in the sand we have to start with what’s palateable to “mainstream” America, and expelling senators with a history of sexual assault would be a victory for the ideals of the left
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Nov 20, 2017 18:13
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Chomskyan posted:Franken isn’t particularly hawkish but he does have questionable views on Israel/Palestine IIRC. But if that’s disqualifying, then probably the whole US Senate has to go. Why is that issue so important I'll never understand.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:18
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Chomskyan posted:Franken isn’t particularly hawkish but he does have questionable views on Israel/Palestine IIRC. But if that’s disqualifying, then probably the whole US Senate has to go. Ok so we can't draw a line in the sand for overseas labor exploitation or starving Yemeni children because it's too popular. Got it. Just wanted to confirm that there's no "moral consistency" here, just more pragmatism wrapped up with some moralizing about how this act is just one step too far. Serious question, how many of you would be calling for his head if there was a GOP governor in Minnesota?
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Nov 20, 2017 18:19
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LeJackal posted:Why is that issue so important I'll never understand. beep boop why is support for apartheid states important
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Nov 20, 2017 18:20
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The idea that "mainstream Americans" have any desire to be fighting covert wars in dozens of countries around the world is a pretty comfortable fiction for those who aren't ignorant of these conflicts but have no interest in opposing them.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:23
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NewForumSoftware posted:Ok so we can't draw a line in the sand for overseas labor exploitation or starving Yemeni children because it's too popular. Got it. I would. We either care about women's rights or we don't. Sorry about your blind hatred of Hillary Clinton though.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:23
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Alter Ego posted:I would. We either care about women's rights or we don't. I'm not talking about Hillary, I'm talking about the countless Democratic congresspeople who voted to extend the patriot act (Al Franken is one of them) and other heinous bills like arming Saudi Arabia, etc. Why these moral failings are perpetually excused by the "morally consistent pragmatists" in this thread is beyond me. I guess if the victims aren't a white woman it's not really worth getting up in arms about.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:26
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Or to put in your words, we either care about starving Yemenis or we don't.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:29
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Lightning Knight posted:beep boop why is support for apartheid states important There are dozens of them in the world, and I guess the reason this one is so special is because we gave them nukes? Is that the reason?
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Nov 20, 2017 18:31
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NewForumSoftware posted:Or to put in your words, we either care about starving Yemenis or we don't. beep boop every argument made has to be all-encompassing or it is invalid beep boop
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Nov 20, 2017 18:37
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Alter Ego posted:beep boop every argument made has to be all-encompassing or it is invalid beep boop Really? This is the best you can muster when your hypocrisy is exposed? Or is this just your way of confirming "we don't"? White women nonconsensual butt touching: let him resign regardless of the political consequences Arming saudi arabia enabling their subjugation of the middle east: beep boop beep boop the only people who care about yemenis are robots (jk predator drones are murdering the hell out of them)
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Nov 20, 2017 18:43
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Lightning Knight posted:Yes, but "without any strong connections or sense of belonging" should be remedied by less economic alienation and more ability to form familial roots without fear of sinking financially, not Judeo-Christian values or whatever other horseshit Brooks thinks is the Real Problem in America. This is the biggest reason his column needs to be looked at. I think he is trying to lay the ideological ground work for what is next on the conservative side of the aisle. If we do get a D wave or even two (2018 and 2020). Where do they go next? Brooks is trying to have that answered. This may be the next fight (assuming we survive the current one.)
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Nov 20, 2017 18:45
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LeJackal posted:Why is that issue so important I'll never understand. Because it's bad to sell arms to war criminals hth LeJackal posted:There are dozens of them in the world, and I guess the reason this one is so special is because we gave them nukes? Is that the reason? If you're asking sincerely, it's because the US continues to provide large scale economic, military, and diplomatic support to Israel. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 18:50
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LeJackal posted:There are dozens of them in the world, and I guess the reason this one is so special is because we gave them nukes? Is that the reason? It's a pretty clear litmus test imo
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Nov 20, 2017 18:57
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Chomskyan posted:Because it's bad to sell arms to war criminals hth Again, why are these war criminals different from all the other war criminals we finance? gowb posted:It's a pretty clear litmus test imo Pretty useless as a litmus test, though.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:59
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Ytlaya posted:In addition to what others have said, you seem to have missed the part of the first incident where he also kissed the woman against her will and, as she put it, forced his tongue down her throat. A lot of the people against Franken resigning seem to have immediately come to a conclusion regarding the initial incident without even reading the accompanying article, since they all seem to think the photo was the only thing he did. Zero-tolerance rules are always stupid. Let me put it another way: do you think Moore's and Franken's abuses warrant the same legal punishment (ignoring statute of limitation issues, etc.)? I think it's self-evident that they don't; even if you think Franken deserves jail time for his behavior, Moore deserves far more of it. So if these two situations warrant different legal punishments, why can't they warrant different social and professional consequences as well?
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Nov 20, 2017 19:29
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Oakland Martini posted:Zero-tolerance rules are always stupid. Let me put it another way: do you think Moore's and Franken's abuses warrant the same legal punishment (ignoring statute of limitation issues, etc.)? I think it's self-evident that they don't; even if you think Franken deserves jail time for his behavior, Moore deserves far more of it. So if these two situations warrant different legal punishments, why can't they warrant different social and professional consequences as well? Because sexual abusers should not be elected officials. What a crazy notion!
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Nov 20, 2017 19:30
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Oakland Martini posted:Zero-tolerance rules are always stupid. Let me put it another way: do you think Moore's and Franken's abuses warrant the same legal punishment (ignoring statute of limitation issues, etc.)? I think it's self-evident that they don't; even if you think Franken deserves jail time for his behavior, Moore deserves far more of it. So if these two situations warrant different legal punishments, why can't they warrant different social and professional consequences as well? The bare minimum consequence of sexual abuse of any degree is/should be that the abuser doesn't get to hold political office. Hope this helps.
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Nov 20, 2017 19:34
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Oakland Martini posted:Zero-tolerance rules are always stupid. Let me put it another way: do you think Moore's and Franken's abuses warrant the same legal punishment (ignoring statute of limitation issues, etc.)? I think it's self-evident that they don't; even if you think Franken deserves jail time for his behavior, Moore deserves far more of it. So if these two situations warrant different legal punishments, why can't they warrant different social and professional consequences as well? You got so close only to stumble right before the finish line.
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Nov 20, 2017 19:35
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 A Thread About Sexual Assault, Consent, Survivors and Predators move assault chat there, plzkthx
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Nov 20, 2017 19:37
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Lightning Knight posted:Because sexual abusers should not be elected officials. What a crazy notion! Also in abusing this women while senator, he has inherently abused his power as senator to silence his victim. That's how power dynamics work.
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Nov 20, 2017 19:38
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Oakland Martini posted:Zero-tolerance rules are always stupid. Let me put it another way: do you think Moore's and Franken's abuses warrant the same legal punishment (ignoring statute of limitation issues, etc.)? I think it's self-evident that they don't; even if you think Franken deserves jail time for his behavior, Moore deserves far more of it. So if these two situations warrant different legal punishments, why can't they warrant different social and professional consequences as well? What? Losing your position/job in this case would be a minimum that both people meet, while Moore's crimes would just warrant more severe punishment in addition to that. There's no logical problem with thinking "losing their position as politicians" is a level of punishment warranted by both crimes, while also thinking that extra punishment in addition to that would be warranted in Moore's case (well, state of limitations aside). edit: This is like if someone said "people should go to prison for thievery (or whatever)" and you saying "A murderer also has to go to prison. Are you saying a thief is as bad as a murderer?"
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Nov 20, 2017 20:15
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LeJackal posted:Again, why are these war criminals different from all the other war criminals we finance? A. There's a clear conflict between religious politics, etc. if someone can overcome those biases and still recognize that we should not support an apartheid state pretty good odds they won't support other apartheid states without the Judie Christian religious stuff. B. Nope
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Nov 20, 2017 20:49
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Alter Ego posted:It isn't even a pragmatic argument to say Franken should stay--the governor of Minnesota is a Democrat and there are a few good options to replace Franken if he resigns. There's literally no reason not to do it at this point other than Franken's ego. The party has to cut him loose. Who are these good options? And what makes you believe the governor would make the right decision?
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Nov 20, 2017 21:36
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Koalas March posted:
Why? Sexual abuse & harassment in politics is worthy of discussion in this thread, particularly since Congress plays by its own rules, not the rules it has passed for other workplaces. eta: If it's triggering, then ask people to spoiler stories with trigger warnings.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:39
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Willa Rogers posted:Why? Sexual abuse & harassment in politics is worthy of discussion in this thread, particularly since Congress plays by its own rules, not the rules it has passed for other workplaces. I think it’s more like there are enough major news outbreaks on the topic to warrant its own thread, not that you can’t talk about it here.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:41
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LeJackal posted:Again, why are these war criminals different from all the other war criminals we finance? It doesn't need to be different. Supporting war criminals in general is wrong. But in sheer dollar amounts of military aid we provide to Israel dwarfs any other country we send it to. Also Israel/Palestine as an issue has been around for longer than others.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:43
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Lightning Knight posted:I think it’s more like there are enough major news outbreaks on the topic to warrant its own thread, not that you can’t talk about it here. I'm not trying to shut down the other thread, only pointing out that the directive to "move assault chat there, plzkthx" isn't necessary for the political discussion in this thread.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:45
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Oakland Martini posted:I'm still firmly in favor of Franken NOT resigning. Punishment should be proportional. Molesting children is not in the same ballpark as surreptitiously grabbing an adult woman's butt for a second or taking a creepy photo. Yes, Franken is a creep. No, his behavior doesn't warrant expulsion from the Senate. Let MN voters decide what to do with Franken when he comes up for reelection. Punishment should be proportional, but you can't torture to death powerful people who use their power to molest children so you'll just have to settle on getting them out of official positions of power alongside the people who grabass without permission.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:21
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Freakazoid_ posted:Who are these good options? And what makes you believe the governor would make the right decision? Ask MN goons about Mark Dayton, Minnesota's governor. From what I hear he's basically pulled the state out of the shithole Tim Pawlenty left it in. As for options, there's Keith Ellison, Tim Walz, and the state AG Lori Swanson. Not sure what you're afraid of.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:34
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