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C.M. Kruger posted:With the advent of cheap CNC manufacturing equipment I'd argue otherwise. Nope. Even the cheapest of CNC equipment doesn't even come close to stamped metal and simple forgings when you're talking making hundreds of thousands of a thing. This isn't even getting into the fact that most of the tooling, jigs, stamping dies etc for making AKs was produced and paid for by some communist government in the 70s if not earlier, so is essentially free now. If you're talking about setting up your own domestic AK line that's something you might have to worry about, but if all you want to do is buy 100k, rifles to outfit your miltia with Romania has got you covered like you wouldn't believe at a really attractive price point.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:29
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I *think* I get those tired and groggy moments where my eyes are just kinda shutting down and it's really hard to move; and those morning moments where just dragging yourself out of bed is like, a Sisyphean feat. Now night terrors, on the other hand, I got twenty years of stories of screaming myself hoarse at anything vaguely people shaped in my room; or the tint of everything has gone all red and I see the words KILL everywhere so I'm awake and jumping out of my bed from the sheer panic that I'm honestly about to die. I usually end up spending a few minutes turning on the lights, carefully inspecting that the hat rack is not in fact a person and then slowly coaxing myself back to sleep after making sure my bedroom and backyard facing door are both shut and locked.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:39
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Wouldn't cheap CNC machining also drive down the price of milled AK variants? I'd be amazed if those don't take fewer machine hours than any AR design.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:40
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A friend of mine decided to make something like that whole "coding duck" thing for me to talk to and explain my code to. Yes the arm lengths are intentional. I'm unreasonably happy. Siivola posted:Wouldn't cheap CNC machining also drive down the price of milled AK variants? I'd be amazed if those don't take fewer machine hours than any AR design. The AK is designed to use a lot of stampings. Designs tend to be based on the technology of their time.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:47
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Cyrano4747 posted:Nope. Even the cheapest of CNC equipment doesn't even come close to stamped metal and simple forgings when you're talking making hundreds of thousands of a thing. This isn't even getting into the fact that most of the tooling, jigs, stamping dies etc for making AKs was produced and paid for by some communist government in the 70s if not earlier, so is essentially free now. If you're talking about setting up your own domestic AK line that's something you might have to worry about, but if all you want to do is buy 100k, rifles to outfit your miltia with Romania has got you covered like you wouldn't believe at a really attractive price point. But the legacy of Soviet largesse, with a ~16 year head start on the AR, skews things massively. The normal security concerns that encourage domestic production don't apply the same way with the AK. If you get in a tiff with Romania there's easily a dozen other big manufacturers who will be happy to take orders and produce a compatible design, and that's before considering the surplus market. And you could always make AK receivers on mills or CNC at about the same cost as AR receivers in a pinch. The AK isn't optimized for that so the labor is less efficient, but there's a big difference between gearing up to produce an entire military's worth of rifles vs keeping up with wastage if you aren't on friendly terms with international suppliers. Siivola posted:Wouldn't cheap CNC machining also drive down the price of milled AK variants? I'd be amazed if those don't take fewer machine hours than any AR design. EDIT: With the substantial caveat that this assumes you aren't in a mobilization crunch where speed matters more than cost.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:49
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xthetenth posted:A friend of mine decided to make something like that whole "coding duck" thing for me to talk to and explain my code to. Stampings are still dirt loving cheap if you're making a lot of them. The main expensive parts on an AK are the trunnions and the bolt, and those are all forged and machined.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:50
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Ainsley McTree posted:Want to read the sci fi book where instead of carriers, naval war fare is all launching boarding parties out of cannons Watch Starcrash.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:51
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Yo The Great Goon War is on again. Signups open in about an hour and a half. Be there or be hanging on the old barbed wire.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:58
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Cyrano4747 posted:Stampings are still dirt loving cheap if you're making a lot of them. The main expensive parts on an AK are the trunnions and the bolt, and those are all forged and machined. Yeah, absolutely. I meant there wasn't really room for much savings from CNC.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:59
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Kalashnikov and his team, quite sensibly, optimized the AK for stamped sheet metal production
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Nov 20, 2017 22:00
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Siivola posted:Oh! I'd thought they started out with the milled design and only later developed the stamped version. Turns out I'm wrong and they were thinking of stamping all along. Thanks, I learned a thing today. EDIT: I can't think of another firearm with both milled and stamped receivers that didn't go in the other direction. The MP 38/40 started milled and then was adapted to use as much stamped as possible, for example. That being said I would love to hear if there's one I've missed. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 22:04
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Which one is more reliable, a sword or a polearm? I've heard that swords are prone to jamming especially when there are stones around.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:05
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JcDent posted:Clearly I need to affix an AK to a pike! Underslung pike on an AK or a pike with an AK on the end?
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Nov 20, 2017 22:11
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Comrade Gorbash posted:EDIT: I can't think of another firearm with both milled and stamped receivers that didn't go in the other direction. The MP 38/40 started milled and then was adapted to use as much stamped as possible, for example. That being said I would love to hear if there's one I've missed.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:16
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Comrade Gorbash posted:It gets confusing because they always intended stamped sheet metal, but the Soviets initially had some trouble with welding quality so they went to a machined receiver while they worked the kinks out. So despite being a later temporary measure, the milled receiver AKs got issued first. It's pretty unlikely, because stamping is a superior mass production technique in that it is very fixed-cost heavy, but the variable cost per unit produced is quite low. Therefore, it's really good when you know you want a shitload of this exact part that I have made, and less good when there's any sort of variability. The natural evolution of a weapon is to go from prototyping to limited production to mass production with changes at each phase, so it's really unlikely that you'd tool up for stamping (loving expensive) and then decided you wanted to go back to milling.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:20
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Nenonen posted:Which one is more reliable, a sword or a polearm? I've heard that swords are prone to jamming especially when there are stones around.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:23
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FAUXTON posted:Pikes operate normally regardless of how much mud or dust get into the action. They can experience issues if the mechanism absorbs too much alcohol, or so I've heard.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:24
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Siivola posted:Oddly, the Finnish AK variant RK-62 was milled, and IMI copied that detail for the Galil. Could be related to ValMet familiarity with milling versus stamping, but they did then create the M76 which was stamped and supposedly lighter.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:24
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The Lone Badger posted:They can experience issues if the mechanism absorbs too much alcohol, or so I've heard.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:32
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Bit of mud on the end of a pike is beneficial even. The more wounded enemy musketeers who catch septicaemia the better.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:39
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xthetenth posted:A friend of mine decided to make something like that whole "coding duck" thing for me to talk to and explain my code to.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:46
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Siivola posted:Oddly, the Finnish AK variant RK-62 was milled, and IMI copied that detail for the Galil. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Could be related to ValMet familiarity with milling versus stamping, but they did then create the M76 which was stamped and supposedly lighter. If you do it right, the milled receivers are higher quality and more rugged. Maximizing the quality of a smaller number of arms made sense for the Finns and Israelis, who had hard caps on how big their armies could be, while facing nearby enemies with much larger forces. The greater weight didn't matter to them as much, because they expected to be conducting primarily defensive actions. The Finns maintained parts and ammo compatibility so that they could easily draw on the surplus market or use captured supplies. Finnish soldiers also don't need much cross-training to be able to use a captured Russian weapon. Basically, unless the someone else is footing the bill, the Finns are going to default to a high-quality version of what Russia is using (see the M/27 Mosin-Nagant variant as well). The Galil's design has more to do with a unique combination of political and security imperatives, and specific combat conditions. The Israelis explicitly wanted a rifle that was as reliable as the AK-47 in local conditions but as accurate as the M-16, that they could produce domestically, and used the same standard ammunition as their primary allies. They were willing to pay a premium per weapon and didn't care about it being parts compatible with anything else. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 22:48
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The Finns started with a milled version and then migrated to a stamped version, which pretty well negates your theory. It's not min-maxing in a video game and the largely theoretical "edge" of milling doesn't matter. It's clear that based on the evolution of the production process, the FDF and ValMet figured out that it was actually cheaper and just as good in every way that mattered to stamp the reciever, since none of the scope conditions that you point to as supporting milling changed over that time period.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:03
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HEY GUNS posted:swords snap less often I guess if you've got to cut a pike down every time you want to loot a town, you'd definitely have to replace the pikes a lot more often.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:10
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The Finns started with a milled version and then migrated to a stamped version, which pretty well negates your theory.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:18
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The Valmet's pistol grip and stock are like sawn off pieces of a stolen stop sign wrapped in a garden hose. I'm not really sure polished craftsmanship was high on the priority list? Norinco in China makes copies of the M-16/AR15 now and so does Iran, off the same tooling. It's probably not that expensive these days. I think the Iranians are reequipping their entire force with 5.56mm M-16 variants, oddly enough.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:20
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Siivola posted:We, er, never did. The RK 62 is milled and the RK 62 76 is stamped, if I'm not mistaken.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:20
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Nenonen posted:Which one is more reliable, a sword or a polearm? I've heard that swords are prone to jamming especially when there are stones around. They tolerate immersion well and are capable of imparting royalty upon the operator despite being completely submerged in a lake, which cannot necessarily be said of a pike. However, the pike requires little in the way of defensive training for the operator as the defensive utility of a pike is maximized right out of the very long box it came in. It is quite possible that had Arthur used a pike in fighting Mordred he may have not endured mortal wounds but that's getting too far off toward Gay Black Merlin territory.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:23
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The RK 62 is milled and the RK 62 76 is stamped, if I'm not mistaken.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:26
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Siivola posted:The M76 was never adopted by the military, and production ended thirty years ago. The current model is the Rk 95 Tp, which is still a milled pig of a gun. oop, well, I stand corrected then
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Nov 20, 2017 23:27
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Cyrano4747 posted:Nope. Even the cheapest of CNC equipment doesn't even come close to stamped metal and simple forgings when you're talking making hundreds of thousands of a thing. This isn't even getting into the fact that most of the tooling, jigs, stamping dies etc for making AKs was produced and paid for by some communist government in the 70s if not earlier, so is essentially free now. If you're talking about setting up your own domestic AK line that's something you might have to worry about, but if all you want to do is buy 100k, rifles to outfit your miltia with Romania has got you covered like you wouldn't believe at a really attractive price point. Yes I was thinking of direct domestic production. Autarky gunsmithing. Siivola posted:Wouldn't cheap CNC machining also drive down the price of milled AK variants? I'd be amazed if those don't take fewer machine hours than any AR design. Not exactly. Faster to cut aluminum than steel. And you're still left with a AK at the end of the day. Comrade Gorbash posted:I sort of headfaked at this, but it goes the other way. Kalashnikov and his team, quite sensibly, optimized the AK for stamped sheet metal production, while Stoner - also quite sensibly - optimized the AR for CNC, because that's what their respective nations had readily available and were good at. It would make milled receivers more cost effective for the AK, but it's just easier to make an AR receiver on CNC. Materials cost tends to favor the AK so it's mostly a wash overall when you're talking about military scale production. I would say "optimized for milling" rather than CNC or NC, neither of those really took off until after the AR series had been developed due to the lack of readily available/cheap computing power to create toolpaths for complex shapes, and IIRC the original marketing material for the AR10 emphasized how it could be produced on conventional equipment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDXWo70xVwA
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Nov 20, 2017 23:33
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:anyone who's not scared of sleep paralysis has clearly never experienced it Oh, yeah, I mean in the sense of "the thing they're scared of isn't ghosts", though. Sleep paralysis itself is terrifying. As are bedsheets at awkward angles at night.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:47
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xthetenth posted:A friend of mine decided to make something like that whole "coding duck" thing for me to talk to and explain my code to. So sad the Rule the Waves LP died.
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Nov 20, 2017 23:50
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:So sad the Rule the Waves LP died. I know. Still, it's perfect. The Kaiser has a natural affinity for bad ideas.
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Nov 21, 2017 00:15
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xthetenth posted:I know. Still, it's perfect. The Kaiser has a natural affinity for bad ideas. The Kaiser's Battleship was art. Completely true to the real Wilhelm.
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Nov 21, 2017 00:21
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Nenonen posted:Guns on ships were just a fad and always will be. Ramming is the correct way to do battle at the sea. And if it refuses to sink, you board it! I like my arrows like I like my men.
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Nov 21, 2017 00:31
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I dunno about everybody else but I only get sleep paralysis as I'm trying to sleep and I don't move at all for too long. So I notice it coming on, and usually I can cut it off by trying to scream at the top of my lungs, what really happens is I groan softly until the paralysis wears off. In conclusion, I am slightly magick and I have knowledge of how to scare off sleep demons.
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Nov 21, 2017 00:35
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FAUXTON posted:the defensive utility of a pike is maximized right out of the very long box it came in. why compromise on the best in modern self-defense
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Nov 21, 2017 00:39
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am i the only person in this thread without sleep paralysis
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Nov 21, 2017 00:40
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:am i the only person in this thread without sleep paralysis mine mysteriously disappeared in my early 20s, along with my immunity to hangovers
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Nov 21, 2017 00:42
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