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Hey my guys, I've just been reading Robert Harris's "Pompeii" and it made me wonder what happened in the aftermath of the eruption. Like the Bay of Naples was I guess just an ash-covered hellscape, so did everyone just gently caress off for a couple of generations until it was livable again? Or just move slightly? What was the official response? e]Yea I wasn't meaning like an emergency response  , just the general reaction to the eruption.
Radical 90s Wizard fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 21:57
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I dunno that ancient rome had much of an empire-wide disaster response force.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:07
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Hey my guys, I've just been reading Robert Harris's "Pompeii" and it made me wonder what happened in the aftermath of the eruption. Like the Bay of Naples was I guess just an ash-covered hellscape, so did everyone just gently caress off for a couple of generations until it was livable again? Or just move slightly? What was the official response? Suetonius tells us that the emperor Titus sent two ex-consuls to Campania to supervise the situation, and sold off the existing property of those who had died without heirs in the eruption to finance recovery efforts. Unfortunately he’s only saying this to illustrate Titus’ benevolent and compassionate character, so doesn’t tell us what the ex-consuls actually did. He also visited the region in person at least once, but it’s unclear what he accomplished while there. The year after the eruption there was a very serious fire which devastated Rome itself, and this gets a good bit more attention in the sources. The year after that, Titus died and his brother Domitian became emperor. By sharp contrast to Titus, our sources mostly had a hate-boner for Domitian, who was seriously autocratic, appears to have been rather unlikable personally, and pissed off the ruling class as a whole. They were mostly more interested in trashing him than pointing out his good deeds, so we don’t know whether he kept up relief efforts or not. It’s clear that Pompeii and Herculaneum were abandoned rather than rebuilt, so presumably the survivors were resettled, whether by Titus or Domitian.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:23
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Don Gato posted:There's a cuneiform tablet of some guy complaining about poor customer service dating back to ~1750 BC. Not really related to the academic chat but I found that while looking for the student complaints. It's always cool to me to see how simultaneously ancient people were both extremely different but also extremely similar to modern people.  "the copper you were supplying me is poo poo, you didn't give me a refund, you're poo poo, gently caress you"
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Nov 21, 2017 00:08
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The supplier was thrown into the river.
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Nov 21, 2017 00:35
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Hey my guys, I've just been reading Robert Harris's "Pompeii" and it made me wonder what happened in the aftermath of the eruption. Like the Bay of Naples was I guess just an ash-covered hellscape, so did everyone just gently caress off for a couple of generations until it was livable again? Or just move slightly? What was the official response? My point of reference is Mount St. Helens in Washington, now 30 years later most of the area seems to have recovered... so I imagine it was abandoned for like a generation tops.
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Nov 21, 2017 08:23
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Hey my guys, I've just been reading Robert Harris's "Pompeii" and it made me wonder what happened in the aftermath of the eruption. Like the Bay of Naples was I guess just an ash-covered hellscape, so did everyone just gently caress off for a couple of generations until it was livable again? Or just move slightly? What was the official response? There was in fact emergency response. The Roman navy was based right across the bay and with their help, the majority of the people seem to have been evacuated from the immediate eruption zone. Afterward, we see evidence of massive building programs in the surviving nearby cities such as Cumae and Capua. We don't have a written record, but everything is consistent with a disaster relief and resettlement program for the survivors.
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Nov 21, 2017 11:02
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Pliny the Elder was the admiral of that relief fleet and he died during the emergency evacuation efforts.
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Nov 21, 2017 11:32
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Animal posted:Pliny the Elder was the admiral of that relief fleet and he died during the emergency evacuation efforts. I still don't really like his IPA, but my respect for the dude just grew a lot. What was the Roman/ancient Mediterranean's drinking/bar scene like? Were there bars? Did everyone drink wine or did they brew beer/import it from Egypt? Do we have any kind of records of their drinking games? Maybe the dodecahedrons were for ritual drinking purposes.
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Nov 21, 2017 12:10
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I just went to Pompeii yesterday for the first time and I absolutely recommend anyone passing through Italy go out of their way to visit. It’s incredible, especially if you can visit on the off season. I got there early and beat the crowd, and walking by myself in a Roman ghost town was one of the most haunting experiences of my life. Also, it’s bigger than I thought. Three hours is not enough. Sadly, I didn’t get to go to the Napoli Archeological Museum, so no dick graffitis for me. Tonight I’m heading to Crete and will spend a day there. Hotel in Sofoklis Venizelos square area. Anyone familiar? What should I do if I wanna see ancient ruins? Sofoklis Venizelos Square Chania 731 00, Greece https://goo.gl/maps/gBgMN8EfV4B2
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Nov 21, 2017 12:19
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Were there bars? Yep and they're quite recognizable as such. They were called popina and people went there to eat snacky food and drink wine. Also illegal gambling, and they show up in Roman literature occasionally as dens of vice. Dice were played while drinking, but I don't know if we have records of how any of the games worked. As for beer, I doubt they were shipping it around the empire. Beer doesn't keep the way wine does, they didn't have the preservation techniques used in modern brewing. I'm sure people were drinking it in places it was being brewed, though.
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Nov 21, 2017 12:40
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Was the wine premixed in cups, or did they bring out a pitcher of neat wine and you water it yourself? If it was the first, how did you make sure the popina was using the correct amount of water / not adding extra to make more profit?
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Nov 21, 2017 12:48
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I think the Greeks, or at least Athenians, didn't drink beer at all. The Ancient Greek word for beer, zythos, is in all dictionaries I've seen described as "beer of the Egyptians or northern barbarians". The word itself is likely borrowed, perhaps from the Egyptians. When Xenophon passed through Armenia and met beer drinkers he called it barley wine. I seem to remember reading that some outside source writes of the Egyptians that they considered it normal to get pissing drunk in public like the ancient equivalent of modern day Britons.
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Nov 21, 2017 13:31
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The Egyptians were a good bunch of lads overall. Funky animal gods, extreme boozing and snuggling kitties. Also building absolutely massive poo poo for a laugh and wrapping up their dead folks all spooky.
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Nov 21, 2017 13:42
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yeah i'd love to hang out with egyptians, drink my beer out of a straw with them
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Nov 21, 2017 14:19
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The Lone Badger posted:Was the wine premixed in cups, or did they bring out a pitcher of neat wine and you water it yourself? that sounds like the sort of thing the government would get involved in real early, like the sumerian government and beer laws, or the modern UK government and the official pint glass
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Nov 21, 2017 14:23
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I'd have to assume that any bars which watered their wine would get a reputation for it pretty fast.
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Nov 21, 2017 14:27
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Sarrisan posted:I'd have to assume that any bars which watered their wine would get a reputation for it pretty fast. Ah, the free market works
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Nov 21, 2017 14:37
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Sarrisan posted:I'd have to assume that any bars which watered their wine would get a reputation for it pretty fast. Less reputation and more an rear end beating I'd imagine.
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Nov 21, 2017 15:02
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Grand Fromage posted:Yep and they're quite recognizable as such. They were called popina and people went there to eat snacky food and drink wine. Also illegal gambling, and they show up in Roman literature occasionally as dens of vice. You mean they'd popina'nd 'ave a pint.
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Nov 21, 2017 15:04
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OwlFancier posted:You mean they'd popina'nd 'ave a pint. AAAAAAAAA
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Nov 21, 2017 15:12
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OwlFancier posted:You mean they'd popina'nd 'ave a pint. 
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Nov 21, 2017 15:14
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OwlFancier posted:You mean they'd popina'nd 'ave a pint. taste my blade
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Nov 21, 2017 15:15
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Sarrisan posted:I'd have to assume that any bars which watered their wine would get a reputation for it pretty fast. VI.14.37 (Wood-Working Shop of Potitus): 3498: What a lot of tricks you use to deceive, innkeeper. You sell water but drink unmixed wine VII.2.44 (Bar of Hedone (or Colepius) on the Street of the Augustales; on the corner toward the lupinare); 1679: Hedone says, “You can get a drink here for only one coin. You can drink better wine for two coins. You can drink Falernian for four coins.” http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Ancient/Graffiti%20from%20Pompeii.htm I like how Hedone was named "pleasure" in Greek. Not unlike how people name bars in modern times. That is if the advertisement is the bar itself "speaking" and not the proprietor or maybe a celebrity? A famous whore, even?
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Nov 21, 2017 15:28
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OwlFancier posted:You mean they'd popina'nd 'ave a pint.  
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Nov 21, 2017 15:32
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Huh that's weird why are there suddenly all these knives in my back.
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Nov 21, 2017 16:06
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OwlFancier posted:Huh that's weird why are there suddenly all these knives in my back. novel translation, did they find another account of the 15 Mar events?
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Nov 21, 2017 16:23
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sebzilla posted:The Egyptians were a good bunch of lads overall. Funky animal gods, extreme boozing and snuggling kitties. Also building absolutely massive poo poo for a laugh and wrapping up their dead folks all spooky. They also had a bunch of ideas that are surprisingly close to modern sensibilities, probably owing to their general prosperity and food security. Like thinking that infanticide is horrible or that women are people. Too bad they were too isolationist to really influence other civilizations.
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Nov 21, 2017 16:32
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The Lone Badger posted:Was the wine premixed in cups, or did they bring out a pitcher of neat wine and you water it yourself? Wine, at some point, stopped being mixed, but it was mixed for a long time, and people had differing opinions on the right ratio. In the Odyssey, Odysseus is planning on being a good guest for somebody (who turns out to be Polyphemus, so, welp). quote:“Then I bade the rest of my trusty comrades to remain there by the ship and to guard the ship, but I chose twelve of the best of my comrades and went my way. With me I had a goat-skin of the dark, sweet wine, which Maro, son of Euanthes, had given me, the priest of Apollo, the god who used to watch over Ismarus. And he had given it me because we had protected him with his child and wife out of reverence; for he dwelt in a wooded grove of Phoebus Apollo. And he gave me splendid gifts: of well-wrought gold he gave me seven talents, and he gave me a mixing-bowl all of silver; and besides these, wine, wherewith he filled twelve jars in all, wine sweet and unmixed, a drink divine. Not one of his slaves nor of the maids in his halls knew thereof, but himself and his dear wife, and one house-dame only. And as often as they drank that honey-sweet red wine he would fill one cup and pour it into twenty measures of water, and a smell would rise from the mixing-bowl marvellously sweet; then verily would one not choose to hold back. With this wine I filled and took with me a great skin, and also provision in a scrip; for my proud spirit had a foreboding that presently a man would come to me clothed in great might, a savage man that knew naught of justice or of law." We could suppose, maybe, that this wine gives some kind of epic buzz and needs to be diluted a whole bunch. Pliny talks about a legendarily strong wine: quote:"Mucianus, who thrice held the consulship, and one of our most recent authors, when in that part of the world was witness himself to the fact, that with one sextarius of this Wine it was the custom to mix no less than eighty sextarii of water: he states, also, that this wine is black, has a strong bouquet, and is all the richer for being old." So, to answer your question, the wine was mixed (at the symposium, at least) before it got to the cups. Greek pottery classifies the mixing vessel (krater) by its shape:  As differentiated from the drinking vessel (NSFW unless you're allowed to look at naughty art that's a couple thousand years old, image search kylix if you want to see not naughty ones):  Wine and its dilution were a yardstick for morality -- the less diluted the wine you drank, the more out of control you were. quote:"Don’t wait: drink to the new moon, boy,
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Nov 21, 2017 17:05
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Ah ye anciente greeke dickebutte.
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Nov 21, 2017 17:27
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homullus posted:We could suppose, maybe, that this wine gives some kind of epic buzz and needs to be diluted a whole bunch.
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Nov 21, 2017 17:34
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Guildencrantz posted:They also had a bunch of ideas that are surprisingly close to modern sensibilities, probably owing to their general prosperity and food security. Like thinking that infanticide is horrible or that women are people. Too bad they were too isolationist to really influence other civilizations. Re: "thinking that women are people," it's worth noting that the ancient Egyptians practiced FGM at least sometimes. Also worth noting that in addition to practicing sibling marriage between royalty more or less from the beginning, by the Roman period about 20% of all Egyptian marriages were between siblings. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 21, 2017 |
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Nov 21, 2017 18:24
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Grevling posted:I think the Greeks, or at least Athenians, didn't drink beer at all. The Ancient Greek word for beer, zythos, is in all dictionaries I've seen described as "beer of the Egyptians or northern barbarians". The word itself is Actual barley wine is extremely good and probably better than wine full of slave foot fungus.
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Nov 21, 2017 18:49
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Silver2195 posted:Re: "thinking that women are people," it's worth noting that the ancient Egyptians practiced FGM at least sometimes. Would that have been amongst the Greek nobility, or the Egyptian peasants as well? From what I understand, by Roman times, the two were well separated and nobody (except Cleopatra, occasionally) really paid attention to the peasants.
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Nov 21, 2017 18:51
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sebzilla posted:The Egyptians were a good bunch of lads overall. Funky animal gods, extreme boozing and snuggling kitties. Also building absolutely massive poo poo for a laugh and wrapping up their dead folks all spooky. The Egyptians also pioneered the insane fundamentalist school of Christianity though.
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Nov 21, 2017 19:11
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sullat posted:Would that have been amongst the Greek nobility, or the Egyptian peasants as well? From what I understand, by Roman times, the two were well separated and nobody (except Cleopatra, occasionally) really paid attention to the peasants. https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...627041607DBDBF0 quote:According to official census returns from Roman Egypt (first to third centuries CE) preserved on papyrus, 23·5% of all documented marriages in the Arsinoites district in the Fayum (n=102) were between brothers and sisters. In the second century CE, the rates were 37% in the city of Arsinoe and 18·9% in the surrounding villages. So more common in urban areas, but still common elsewhere. A source I can't find right now suggests that one of the Ptolemies legalized sibling marriages among his Greek and Egyptian subjects to create a shared national myth about both groups being semi-divine.
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Nov 21, 2017 19:14
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HEY GUNS posted:it evaporates over time in their containers
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Nov 21, 2017 19:23
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Could marriage in between siblings be more of a symbolic thing to keep wealth in one family but you are really bangin a concubine and raising those as your children?
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Nov 21, 2017 21:02
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LingcodKilla posted:Could marriage in between siblings be more of a symbolic thing to keep wealth in one family but you are really bangin a concubine and raising those as your children?
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Nov 21, 2017 21:03
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I remember reading once that Egyptian princes and princesses were raised separately, helping explain why they didn't experience the Westermarck effect with their sibling marriages. I guess once banging your sister is the cool, royal thing to do though 20% of the population will get over the ick factor
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Nov 21, 2017 21:05
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