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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed. |
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| Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce |
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44 | 21.36% |
| ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress |
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19 | 9.22% |
| Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin |
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9 | 4.37% |
| Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit |
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8 | 3.88% |
| Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died |
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24 | 11.65% |
| Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread |
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17 | 8.25% |
| ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter |
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15 | 7.28% |
| ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming |
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2 | 0.97% |
| Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy |
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10 | 4.85% |
| ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union |
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5 | 2.43% |
| ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die |
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25 | 12.14% |
| Total: | 206 votes | ||
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I only hate the English ironically.
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Nov 19, 2017 12:19
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| # ? May 26, 2024 07:46 |
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Jedit posted:When the modern SNP repudiate the forefathers of the movement, I'll listen. But while Mosley was driven out of British politics after the war, the SNP made Arthur Donaldson party leader in the 1960s. Any dimunition of racism in the SNP happened much later, and was if anything more an effect of Salmond mimicking Thatcher's reshaping of the Tories. And there will always be that core movement who hate the English, because it's the cornerstone of the party. Donaldson stepped down one year before the current SNP leader was born. His (alleged by one document but i'm inclined to believe are true) Fascist sympathies weren't revealed until 1994, long after his election. And how did Salmond "mimic" Thatcher in any sense? With the exception that both changed the ideological direction of their respective parties? By that logic you could say Corbyn mimicked Thatcher as well. It's almost as if you're trying to disingenuously link the two because you have an irrational hatred for the SNP, as evidenced by that woeful closing sentence.
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Nov 19, 2017 12:42
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Not all of the English are bad.
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Nov 19, 2017 12:57
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keep punching joe posted:Not all of the English are bad. Outrageous lie.
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Nov 19, 2017 13:07
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I'm sorta English and I hate myself, does that count
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Nov 19, 2017 13:08
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Self-hating English are better than normal English people and nationalist Scottish people imo. Also I think Scottish labour should be neutral on the indy issue and focus on the more important things right now. If you continue to support one side, you're going to alienate the other which at this point in time for Scottish labour, is something they really don't need.
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Nov 19, 2017 14:07
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Labour should probably do socialism and let the weird single issue party continue to flail around being bad. E: has anyone said Irn Brukip yet? ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 14:49
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Is there another Scottish independence referendum coming up? Only I can't quite imagine why anyone with an ounce of sense or modicum of attachment to reality would have that as their top priority at this moment in time.
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Nov 19, 2017 15:06
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It would be nice if Scottish Labour remained clear that they hate the Tories at least a little bit more than they hate the SNP so we can all breathe easily in a potential future kingmaker scenario but that's pretty much my only concern. And they seem to have done an okay job of it recently e.g. with expelling the councillors who joined up with the conservatives.
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Nov 19, 2017 15:32
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crispix posted:Is there another Scottish independence referendum coming up? Only I can't quite imagine why anyone with an ounce of sense or modicum of attachment to reality would have that as their top priority at this moment in time. Brexit might make it a potentially pressing issue if there are any developments about Scotland's relationship with the EU as a result, but they'd have to be pretty radical developments.
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Nov 19, 2017 16:33
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crispix posted:Is there another Scottish independence referendum coming up? Only I can't quite imagine why anyone with an ounce of sense or modicum of attachment to reality would have that as their top priority at this moment in time. Neither can I frankly, but there's a big chunk of people (and I know this because I'm friends with and work with some of them) whose answer to every political (and economic and social and cultural) question is simply "Scotland needs to be independent." It's infuriating because it's reductive, simplistic and avoids actually saying anything about the issues. It's interesting to compare Scotland with the UK here: Scottish independence has dominated all 3 elections since the referendum, but Brexit had relatively little impact on the agenda for 2017. I know there's various reasons for that, but it's so frustrating that so many people in Scotland, especially politically engaged people, think that governance begins and ends with independence
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Nov 19, 2017 17:05
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Niric posted:It's interesting to compare Scotland with the UK here: Scottish independence has dominated all 3 elections since the referendum, but Brexit had relatively little impact on the agenda for 2017. I know there's various reasons for that, but it's so frustrating that so many people in Scotland, especially politically engaged people, think that governance begins and ends with independence I do think it's wearing off, but not nearly quickly enough. As you allude to the discussion would be a lot more valid if independence wasn't seen as an ends in itself. As it stands it's an underpants gnome argument in terms of tackling social problems. The only Brexit development I could see giving it fresh legs (in terms of a winning second referendum) would be if a land border in Ireland could be successfully worked out with minimal fuss, providing a model to build on. There is nae danger of that happening tho so....
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Nov 19, 2017 17:31
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On the one hand, Brexit is a clear illustration of why Scotland's fate being dictated by the English is a terrible idea. On the other hand, Brexit is also a clear illustration of why separatism is a terrible idea.
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Nov 19, 2017 18:01
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Angepain posted:It would be nice if Scottish Labour remained clear that they hate the Tories at least a little bit more than they hate the SNP so we can all breathe easily in a potential future kingmaker scenario but that's pretty much my only concern. What possible reason would Labour have to do this? They're chasing the unionist vote in Scotland and even the vague (and explicitly denied) idea of a Lab/SNP coalition is a stick the Tories are beating them with. The unionists in Scotland - a majority - hate the idea of a second referendum and believe any deal would make one inevitable. England loathes the idea of a nationalist party dictating policy (unless the nation is England and the party is Conservative) and will vote in droves to prevent it happening. They'd be trading a huge slice of the national electorate for the approval of pro-independence nationalists - considerably less then half of Scotland - a group who consider a vote for the SNP to be a vote for a Labour government. Utter madness. There is no reason to have kingmaker discussions before an election makes them necessary - putting aside how doing so might radically change said election - it's completely counter-productive. If the seats allowed for a kingmaker scenario it's overwhelmingly likely to happen - the parties are fairly close ideologically and would both benefit from such an arrangement. Everyone understands this - Labour, the SNP, the Tories, the Scottish electorate, the national electorate, particularly clever dogs - everyone. Nothing said now can make that outcome more likely to happen - Labour firmly committing would have all the credibility of Milliband's petulant refusals - but it absolutely could screw something up.
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Nov 19, 2017 18:13
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Cat Mattress posted:On the one hand, Brexit is a clear illustration of why Scotland's fate being dictated by the English is a terrible idea. The Brexit comparison isn't appropriate here. Scotland wants to separate from the Union of Crowns in great part so that it can remain in the larger union of Europe. It would still be hosed, and hosed worse if it didn't receive admission to the EU, but it isn't about separatism - it's about choosing which mast to lash yourself to.
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Nov 19, 2017 18:15
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Oh I'm definitely in favor of Scecession; but I do think Brexit is going to have opposed effects, as it will both bolster independence support to flee the clusterfuck that is Brexit, and also bolster union support to avoid compounding it with another potential clusterfuck. Which of these effects will be the greater, I have no idea. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 19:19
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As always, the obvious solution is for Scotland to become a self-governing constituent country within the Kingdom of Denmark, to get those sweet Edinburgh Agreement opt-outs now that the UK threw its own in the trash.
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Nov 19, 2017 19:51
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A Celtic-Scando powerhouse from Iceland to Finland.
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Nov 19, 2017 19:52
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CoolCab posted:They're chasing the unionist vote in Scotland Which didn't work since the Tories did the job way better in the last Scottish election and will no doubt continue to do so. You would be a fool to think that Scottish Labour would do a better job gathering unionist votes now than the Tories. CoolCab posted:England loathes the idea of a nationalist party dictating policy (unless the nation is England and the party is Conservative) and will vote in droves to prevent it happening. I don't think he means in a coalition deal but rather one similar to what the DUP did with the Tories. I mean if Labour becomes a minority government in the next election, I rather have the SNP votes in concession for something they want rather than another Tory Government during the brexit process. But he could also be talking about the Scottish parliament instead which I have no idea how that works. CoolCab posted:They'd be trading a huge slice of the national electorate for the approval of pro-independence nationalists - considerably less then half of Scotland - a group who consider a vote for the SNP to be a vote for a Labour government. Utter madness. No one in the UK labour party is going to suggest doing this and that wasn't what Angepain's comment suggested. His thoughts were that the Scottish labour party should start focusing more on targeting the Tories than the SNP...which I somewhat agree and disagree with since they should be focusing on dealing with both in their bullshit, but the SNP are not as nearly toxic as the actual Tories so i can see why he would suggest it in the first place. Also Scottish labour have had issues of hating the SNP sometimes even more than the Tories at points. Some of these for legitimate reasons, others for petty excuses. As for the kingmaker issue. I feel like what you said is pretty much correct. Cat Mattress posted:Oh I'm definitely in favor of Scecession; but I do think Brexit is going to have opposed effects, as it will both bolster independence support to flee the clusterfuck that is Brexit, and also bolster union support to avoid compounding it with another potential clusterfuck. As Jedit said ages ago. It's not really a 2014 scenario anymore. It's more of a "Do we stay on the sinking ship or risk jumping onto the lifeboat from a distance."
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Nov 19, 2017 19:54
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Coohoolin posted:A Celtic-Scando powerhouse from Iceland to Finland.
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Nov 19, 2017 20:22
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Just wait till the SNP make a hard right turn to try and outflank their rehabilitated scottish tory competition, for coohoolin to follow suit thereafter
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Nov 19, 2017 20:34
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Jedit posted:The Brexit comparison isn't appropriate here. Scotland wants to separate from the Union of Crowns in great part so that it can remain in the larger union of Europe. It would still be hosed, and hosed worse if it didn't receive admission to the EU, but it isn't about separatism - it's about choosing which mast to lash yourself to. thought the SNP proposition was specifically stay in the union of crowns. only reverse the acts of union
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Nov 19, 2017 20:38
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Cerv posted:thought the SNP proposition was specifically stay in the union of crowns. only reverse the acts of union Correct because they thought it would be easier to convince people who support the royals to go with indy.
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Nov 19, 2017 21:12
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Extreme0 posted:But he could also be talking about the Scottish parliament instead which I have no idea how that works. Yeah, I should have really mentioned the scottish parliament specifically, and councils I guess. Like I said they're basically doing a decent job of it at the moment. I just don't want the Labour party to go back to making the answer to every question about the SNP like the bad old days of a few years ago, and also making too much of their campaigning "no independence" will a) just be aping the tories on something the tories are more believed on b) not actually move on the conversation from independence and c) crowd out time that could be spent talking about the joys of Full Corbynism. It would also be nice if they and the nation as a whole could generally accept that it is possible to work with the SNP on an unrelated issue without immediately conceding to immediate full scottish independence, but that'll probably take a while.
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Nov 19, 2017 21:29
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Cerv posted:thought the SNP proposition was specifically stay in the union of crowns. only reverse the acts of union No, the union of the crowns was the official declaration that the Scottish and English crown were one and the same. Before that they had already been worn on the same head, but were still distinct and could in theory be inherited by different people. What the SNP were proposing was a return to that state, albeit with no real chance of them separating through inheritance. Coohoolin, I'd watch what you're saying because "the Celtic-Scandinavian alliance" is something that was frequently talked up by the aforementioned Scottish fascists (usually with "German" added). They had a huge hard-on for the idea of pure ancient warrior peoples uniting to crush inferior types.
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Nov 20, 2017 01:18
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Jedit posted:No, the union of the crowns was the official declaration that the Scottish and English crown were one and the same. Before that they had already been worn on the same head, but were still distinct and could in theory be inherited by different people. What the SNP were proposing was a return to that state, albeit with no real chance of them separating through inheritance. It sounds like you're referring to the proclamation concerning the Kings Majesties Stile issued by James VI, that had no real legal force beyond what he just wanted people to call him, and is not what is usually meant by the phrase Union of the Crowns; rather, the act of his first inheriting the crown of England is what that term commonly applies to: Parliament's own website on the Union of the Crowns posted:http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/act-of-union-1707/overview/union-of-the-crowns/ Further, his son readopted the style "King of Scotland, England, France and Ireland", and a primary impetus for the actual Act of Union was the Act of Security and the Act of Settlement, where the Scottish and English parliaments each asserted their right to pass the crowns of their respective kingdoms to a person of their choosing, and not necessarily the same person.
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Nov 20, 2017 07:25
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Reveilled posted:It sounds like you're referring to the proclamation concerning the Kings Majesties Stile issued by James VI, that had no real legal force beyond what he just wanted people to call him, and is not what is usually meant by the phrase Union of the Crowns; rather, the act of his first inheriting the crown of England is what that term commonly applies to: OK, I may be using the wrong term. But are we all on the same page now as to what I actually was talking about?
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Nov 20, 2017 09:25
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Jedit posted:No, the union of the crowns was the official declaration that the Scottish and English crown were one and the same. Before that they had already been worn on the same head, but were still distinct and could in theory be inherited by different people. What the SNP were proposing was a return to that state, albeit with no real chance of them separating through inheritance. He actually hasn't changed at all, has he 
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Nov 20, 2017 10:38
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42073261quote:The chancellor is to confirm that Scotland's police and fire services will no longer be liable for VAT. might have been a better idea for the SNP government to negotiate the VAT rule change before implementing the mergers
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Nov 22, 2017 11:43
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Cerv posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42073261 Why when they can simply blame Westminster for it? The merger has been handled terribly start to finish and cost the lives of Scottish people, but hey probably Westminster's fault, they probably forced the SNP to push through their half baked idea.
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Nov 22, 2017 11:47
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If anyone hasn't seen the new Kantar poll (Tories 4 up on Lab) aside from the shambles of how they've obviously messed up their weightings there's a rather funny take in the Scotland crosstab:
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Nov 22, 2017 13:52
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Lord of the Llamas posted:If anyone hasn't seen the new Kantar poll (Tories 4 up on Lab) aside from the shambles of how they've obviously messed up their weightings there's a rather funny take in the Scotland crosstab: What, that the Tories get more votes than the SNP?
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Nov 22, 2017 14:07
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Regional tabs on national polls are uhhh generally not worth paying the slightest bit of attention to. Even if they are weighted properly (or at all) the sample sizes are just too drat small.
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Nov 22, 2017 15:58
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Autonomous Monster posted:Regional tabs on national polls are uhhh generally not worth paying the slightest bit of attention to. Even if they are weighted properly (or at all) the sample sizes are just too drat small. Yes I'm well aware. Although that (ha ha) Tory lead is actually statistically significant for that sample size. Someone clearly hosed up this Kantar poll in multiple ways if you look at the (already edited at least once) document.
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Nov 22, 2017 22:59
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Back in Scotland for the weekend for the first time in a long time on a nationalism fact finding trip. Only the keenest ear could detect that I知 part Scottish: most would assume I知 fully English. Will be interesting to see if I知 the victim of any sort of bigotry. I will endeavour to report any such incidents in this thread.
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Dec 8, 2017 13:48
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You're not part Scottish flaps
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Dec 8, 2017 13:52
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I知 100% part Scottish.
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Dec 8, 2017 13:58
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Pissflaps posted:Back in Scotland for the weekend for the first time in a long time on a nationalism fact finding trip. Have you considered that if you get grief it could be because you are a total bellend rather than because you're English? You should consider that.
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Dec 8, 2017 14:48
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Pissflaps posted:I知 100% part Scottish. Is it the part that worries about "Urban" people?
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Dec 8, 2017 15:02
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| # ? May 26, 2024 07:46 |
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"I'M PART SCOTTISH! I'M PART SCOTTISH!" as he slowly twists and turns into a knob.
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Dec 8, 2017 17:28
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