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If I'm going to be charitable I can believe that a lot of the alt right are looking for a way out, but I don't think it's specifically out of being the alt right, it's out of their lives. Fundamentally, I believe a desire for radical change primarily stems from a dissatisfaction in one's situation. And the alt right identify wholly the wrong causes for their situation. The question then becomes however, once they're a part of that belief structure with its communities and ideologues which reinforce it, are they then open to alternatives? Yes they want out of their situation but just like left leaning communities, their communities give them space to air their grievances and find solidarity and perceived sympathy from other people who have the same beliefs as them. There's a support structure there that they aren't going to want to leave, any more than I want to leave crabby Marxist communities. Which is broadly why I'm not overly concerned with converting them. It's fighting an uphill battle instead of trying a different front, which is getting more on the fence people on my side. This is where convincing the spectators comes in. Ultimately I think trying to win people over with debate is daft, it's like trying to get people to defect mid-battle while you're shooting at them. Informal debate is confrontational and people are going to stick with their sides where they feel safe. If you're going to get them to defect it's on their own time when they're not under pressure, when they're alone and read about discrediting of their ideas and wonder what they hell they're doing. Which for literal nazis involves Spencer getting decked on television, destroying their impression of power and prestige. For "intellectuals" I think the strongest approach is just loving dunking on them, showing them for the idiots they are, which is why I think Hbomb does a wonderful job with his videos 'cos he just keeps hitting his target with evidence in their own words about their fuckups and clear lack of comprehension of their subject matter, interspersed with their raving lunacy. It's basically character assassination except it relies on their own published stupidity to do it. I think that's a great loving approach. But I don't think that on the internet you're gonna achieve anything by getting two figureheads and their chat crews to have a big loving argument on stream. Except possibly for baiting out more self owns by the stupider side.
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Nov 25, 2017 18:39
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business hammocks posted:Consider the complication that she gave the chud a recording of her conversation with her department and is gearing up for a wingnut media tour. That doesn’t sound like an open-minded approach. she also violated university policy in like four different ways including not running it past the prof she was working for
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Nov 25, 2017 18:54
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OwlFancier posted:it's like trying to get people to defect mid-battle while you're shooting at them. That's just reminded me of a quote from To The Last Round which I enjoyed. quote:One reservist, a communist, shouted to his attackers, ‘I am a friend – don’t shoot!’ When firing continued, he yelled, ‘If you are not going to listen, I will loving join in!’ He did. Also propaganda trucks have been in warfare for as long as trucks and amplifiers have existed with the explicit aim of getting people to defect mid-battle:  But I guess the internets equivalent of that would be massive dunks on their ideology at all times, they weren't reasoned debate trucks.
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Nov 25, 2017 19:45
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I know people have tried to encourage that kind of defection but I don't believe it's been very successful, not least cos it relys on all your former mates not shooting you the minute you scream your devotion to the enemy. Much like online I figure it's way more likely to happen out of active confrontation when you might be able to just slip away quietly.
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Nov 25, 2017 19:47
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I think it's more for destroying morale, which increases the chances of if not defection then at least ignoring orders or fighting less effectively. They were mostly used in city fighting rather than vast open fronts where they'd just get shelled to poo poo before they were in shouting range. Driving around the streets for hours going "everyone else has surrendered, your generals are in prison, your fuhrer has suicided because his dumb babby ideology is a failure" like an antifa ice cream van is likely to have some effect.
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Nov 25, 2017 19:53
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BigRed0427 posted:LIke, one or two dude should couldn’t let go of the fact she misquoted Socrates. I don’t even remember what video it was In terms of gross things goons do, it wasn't really that bad. Most of the thread agreed that criticizing her was stupid and defended the video. I think it must just feel incredibly weird and bad to see people reductively debating the flaws of your work, even if they're praising it. She didn't post there as herself like hobomb does--she just had an account from way back before she started making videos or getting known. I think that one post above is right that every content producer will have to cross a line into content producer where they stop addressing people on the internet like they're peers and just start pumping out content that reflects the perspective they want to send out into the void.
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Nov 25, 2017 19:53
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OwlFancier posted:I know people have tried to encourage that kind of defection but I don't believe it's been very successful, not least cos it relys on all your former mates not shooting you the minute you scream your devotion to the enemy. That's exactly how it works.
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Nov 25, 2017 19:53
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Guavanaut posted:I think it's more for destroying morale, which increases the chances of if not defection then at least ignoring orders or fighting less effectively. God I would love to think this is something we could start up now. Like have an ideology van that goes round playing Green sleeves and opining about how poo poo capitalism is. business hammocks posted:I think that one post above is right that every content producer will have to cross a line into content producer where they stop addressing people on the internet like they're peers and just start pumping out content that reflects the perspective they want to send out into the void. I hope we get to this soon, I mean I take losers on the internet seriously, but that is because I am one.
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Nov 25, 2017 19:59
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Josef bugman posted:I hope we get to this soon, I mean I take losers on the internet seriously, but that is because I am one. It must be hard because everyone putting out top-tier stuff on youtube started out just being themselves posting in larger conversations on the internet, but in the transition to univocal public intellectual I can see how continuing both to live where you eat (the internet) and to extend dialogue into your text would get in the way of producing a clear argument. Of course dialogue is still important, but there’s a way in which it’s counterproductive to address youtube comments while thinking through the critical conversation and prior thinkers. There has to be a place for direct feedback, but it should probably be a place more like Noam Chomsky’s answering machine. I hope Contra reserves twitter for a place to have fun or express ideas unconnected to her videos.
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Nov 25, 2017 20:42
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Josef bugman posted:Also this:  Lost it at the Brain Force Plus contains soy reveal.
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Nov 25, 2017 20:50
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Guavanaut posted:
I had already seen that on twitter but I just lost it at the "hitting citation needed with an axe".
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Nov 25, 2017 20:53
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I'm kind of amused the thread is going this way because it very much speaks to the "should everyone be able to broadcast to everyone and reply in kind" that I've felt was the core problem with social media for a while. Our monkey brains aren't suited to this stuff.
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Nov 25, 2017 20:54
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Bearing just had his twitter suspended. Hopefully ant friend Ian is next.
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Nov 25, 2017 20:57
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Most people shouldn't engage with nazis because most people are terrible at arguing with them. Nazis, racists, etc... are always arguing in bad faith. But twitter is good for finding sick burns that anyone can use. Unfortunately, people try to follow up those burns and just ruin the momentum.
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Nov 25, 2017 20:58
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My teacher in highschool once pointed out that the risk of the white nationalist convincing even 1 person is just too great to risk giving him a platform in front of a classroom, this was back in 1998. Goddamn he was prescient, he was Hungarian too.
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Nov 25, 2017 21:09
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Raenir Salazar posted:My teacher in highschool once pointed out that the risk of the white nationalist convincing even 1 person is just too great to risk giving him a platform in front of a classroom, this was back in 1998. Goddamn he was prescient, he was Hungarian too. That's ominous
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Nov 25, 2017 21:10
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Oh gently caress I didn't know PJW was from loving Bolton. I don't want to be told about how soy is making me a pussy by a member of the blackout crew.
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Nov 25, 2017 21:11
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MiddleOne posted:That's ominous I think he was much older than I thought he was, so he probably had memories of the Fascist government during WWII or his dad did. edit: it occurs to me you maybe were thinking on the "was", yes he passed away. 
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Nov 25, 2017 21:16
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OwlFancier posted:Oh gently caress I didn't know PJW was from loving Bolton. Go set his house on fire. He literally can’t bring himself to leave it.
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Nov 25, 2017 21:16
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Josef bugman posted:
*yawn* Weak.
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Nov 25, 2017 21:18
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Might not actually be Bolton but it's definitely either somewhere around Manchester or maybe Yorkshire. All I can hear is this.
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Nov 25, 2017 21:21
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OwlFancier posted:Might not actually be Bolton but it's definitely either somewhere around Manchester or maybe Yorkshire. I have family from that area, I am now terrified of running into PJW.
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Nov 25, 2017 21:38
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I mean you won't unless your family are full time burglars.
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Nov 25, 2017 21:49
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He also seems like the kind of guy who is terrified of talking to anything other than a camera.
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Nov 25, 2017 22:09
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His voice definitely fires off my Yorkshire sense
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Nov 25, 2017 23:00
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I can't believe some in this thread can hold the opinion, that people cannot be persuaded to change their opinions, when there are so many examples on the internet, the aforementioned Contra is just one. Tons of ex-conservatives, ex-liberals, ex-theists, ex-atheists, ex-bronies, ex-whatever... are leaving their comments, writing on message boards about how they were convinced to change their minds by watching a debate, YouTube video or in person.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:13
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I specifically said that people are not likely to change minds by being debated. Not that they cannot change their minds. I said if you're going to change minds it is through passive observation in the discussion of others where you personally do not feel you have a stake or side to defend and that you are more likely to change your mind towards something if you have no allegiance to its opposite. I articulated this at excessive length so you really can't be excused for drawing such a facile reading.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:23
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Monglo posted:I can't believe some in this thread can hold the opinion, that people cannot be persuaded to change their opinions, when there are so many examples on the internet, the aforementioned Contra is just one. Tons of ex-conservatives, ex-liberals, ex-theists, ex-atheists, ex-bronies, ex-whatever... are leaving their comments, writing on message boards about how they were convinced to change their minds by watching a debate, YouTube video or in person. If you admit that people can change their minds with debate, then there is an expectation, however small, that you must go and confront these evil wrongthinkers. Luckily, everyone is a lost cause, so I'll just sit here in my thread feeling righteous for having my True and Good™ opinion.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:25
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OwlFancier posted:I specifically said that people are not likely to change minds by being debated. Not that they cannot change their minds. I said if you're going to change minds it is through passive observation in the discussion of others where you personally do not feel you have a stake or side to defend and that you are more likely to change your mind towards something if you have no allegiance to its opposite. You're not the only person in this thread, even if that's how it seems to you.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:25
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OwlFancier posted:I specifically said that people are not likely to change minds by being debated. Not that they cannot change their minds. I said if you're going to change minds it is through passive observation in the discussion of others where you personally do not feel you have a stake or side to defend and that you are more likely to change your mind towards something if you have no allegiance to its opposite. Maybe you can't change the mind of the person you're debating. But if you're debating them publicly, and you're good enough at it, you can definitely make the other person's fans/followers start to question their own beliefs. Which is honestly more important than convincing one rear end in a top hat to stop making videos.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:26
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A debate, especially with spectators, is a very poor avenue to change the minds of the other side, since the ego always gets in the way, and the need to save face is far more important than getting to the truth. However, conversations can be very effective in changing minds, but you have to be very subtle and respectful (goons lol). Check out the Youtube series Street Epistemology for an example of how it can be done right. It's in the context of religious deconversion, but politics works the same. Also check out the book "A Manual for creating Atheists" by Peter Boghossian for practical guidelines of how this is done. https://www.amazon.com/Manual-Creating-Atheists-Peter-Boghossian/dp/1939578094
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Nov 25, 2017 23:30
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None of which is applicable either to the internet or to the alt right. You can't have a conversation because of the medium and you can't be respectful because they deliberately eschew it. It is consciously countercultural and transgressive, that's an integral part of its appeal. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Nov 25, 2017 |
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Nov 25, 2017 23:44
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Here we go, you wan't an actually good criticism of Contra. Here it is. https://twitter.com/CaseyExplosion/status/934524751158136832 https://twitter.com/Hbomberguy/status/934545775186595840 Having actually worked and hung out with actual Tankies, I can probably come up with a better parody of a bad leftist that won't be latched onto like Tabby has. BigRed0427 fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Nov 25, 2017 |
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Nov 25, 2017 23:54
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A lot of them are scrupulously polite because they know it pisses people off to play dumb and feign confusion when people insult them for asking why genocide is bad.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:57
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BigRed0427 posted:Having actually worked and hung out with actual Tankies, I can probably come up with a better parody of a bad leftist that won't be latched onto like Tabby has.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:00
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OwlFancier posted:None of which is applicable either to the internet or to the alt right. You can't have a conversation because of the medium and you can't be respectful because they deliberately eschew it. Here's the thing though, you can't actually know in advance that someone is beyond hope just because they hold reprehensible opinions. Sure, there are plenty of terrible fuckers that are seeing an opening with the rise of the alt-right and are happy that they are free to be terrible in public, but there tons and tons of people that joined because they are scared, they need somewhere to belong, they have not things through and a simplistic explanation convinced them. Really, the only two options of defeating your enemy is physical combat (violence) or intellectual combat (a battle of ideas). You should always choose the second option until it is absolutely clear that it's no longer possible. I know you think and say that, but I don't think you really believe it, otherwise you would not be sitting in your home and posting on forums.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:01
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business hammocks posted:A lot of them are scrupulously polite because they know it pisses people off to play dumb and feign confusion when people insult them for asking why genocide is bad. Yeah when the alt right is "respectful" it's weaponizing the superficialities of it, not actually being respectful, they don't respect respectfulness. Pseudo-God posted:Here's the thing though, you can't actually know in advance that someone is beyond hope just because they hold reprehensible opinions. Sure, there are plenty of terrible fuckers that are seeing an opening with the rise of the alt-right and are happy that they are free to be terrible in public, but there tons and tons of people that joined because they are scared, they need somewhere to belong, they have not things through and a simplistic explanation convinced them. I have a third option: Eclipse them. While I have no issue conceptually with the use of violence as a political tool I do think that is not an effective one unless applied in specific ways. But that doesn't mean that I also think that the most efficient way to win an ideological conflict is to drive directly at your opponents. I think it far better to attempt to work on outnumbering them by going for a sort of ideological land grab. Get as many people onside and with as much clout as possible. Of course I also think that functionally neither I nor anyone else really has any ability to consciously effect this because our influence is almost completely invalidated by material conditions and things like national level propaganda neither of which necessarily is going to have the intended effect, because I don't think anyone alive has enough information or expertise to completely engineer society, so mostly I shitpost because what else is there to do? Makes little odds either way really much as I wish otherwise. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 00:02
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Can we nail down exactly what constitutes a tankie because it's been used for everything from literally any ML to 'Kruschev did nothing wrong, Hungary deserved it'.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:07
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Praseodymi posted:Can we nail down exactly what constitutes a tankie because it's been used for everything from literally any ML to 'Kruschev did nothing wrong, Hungary deserved it'. For me the line is "Are we talking positively about the North Korean Government?" "Do we automatically take the side of a country, no matter who it is and who's in charge, simply because the US is always evil?"
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Nov 26, 2017 00:09
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OwlFancier posted:
I've been trying to think about this sentence here, but I can't figure out under what conditions you think it would be acceptable to use violence. Can you list an example of how it would be done in practice?
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Nov 26, 2017 00:20
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