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The Mackerel of Ordo 3 posted:On the contrary, it shows that Ange wants to live and is actually exercising her intellect to preserve her life and liberty. Exactly, because the alternative would seem to be betrayal and death. This way she has a chance to go on and maybe discover that Battler survived the incident and is probably still alive (although with amnesia, so maybe we don't know if Battler "exists" or not). No need for magic to do that.
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Nov 26, 2017 17:06
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| # ? May 17, 2024 16:12 |
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Guys Killing is bad
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Nov 26, 2017 17:08
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Tired Moritz posted:Guys
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Nov 26, 2017 17:24
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I think you'll find it's <good>
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Nov 26, 2017 17:29
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Nov 26, 2017 17:54
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Poltergrift posted:So is this the good end to magic's bad end or to magic's best end? If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say this'd be the good end as opposed to the happy end. Although, from the way the boat traveling in a straight line towards the horizon was described, it made me wonder: does Ange have any idea how to drive a boat, or is she just going straight ahead until she runs aground somewhere around Mie or Kyushu?
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Nov 26, 2017 18:17
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ZiegeDame posted:If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say this'd be the good end as opposed to the happy end.
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Nov 26, 2017 18:22
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ZiegeDame posted:If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say this'd be the good end as opposed to the happy end. don't be silly. obviously, erika's driving the boat.
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Nov 26, 2017 18:23
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Kangra posted:Exactly, because the alternative would seem to be betrayal and death.  Also my epithets are becoming quite convoluted. Tired Moritz posted:Guys But what if... being murdered is bad, and allowing yourself to be murdered is also bad? PetraCore posted:I'm pretty sure Ange has no idea how to drive a boat and Erika showing up is proof that she dies. That's cynical, but... I think to reach that conclusion is to reach pretty hard. After all, Ange has had a lot of imaginary friends. Erika just happens to be the best pirate among them.
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Nov 26, 2017 18:45
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:I think to reach that conclusion is to reach pretty hard. After all, Ange has had a lot of imaginary friends. Erika just happens to be the best pirate among them. EDIT: Basically murder is an immediate solution but being on a boat means she has ways to buy time. It's complicated, but interesting.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:00
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Fates End posted:don't be silly.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:23
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Reminder that the only thing real life Erika is notable for is falling off a boat
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Nov 26, 2017 19:24
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But what solid evidence does Ange have that she's right? None. It's all circumstantial evidence, and she decided beforehand that she would not accept any evidence contrary to her reasoning. She did not give Amakusa any chance to defend himself and simply declared him guilty based on flimsy reasoning and the preconceived idea that "I am going to be betrayed", twisting all evidence into supporting that conclusion. If you really think this is a positive development for Ange, it might be a good time to revisit this update from Ep 6 and check the parallels.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:25
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I'm okay with this ending. 
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Nov 26, 2017 19:27
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TheArchimage posted:But what solid evidence does Ange have that she's right? None. It's all circumstantial evidence, and she decided beforehand that she would not accept any evidence contrary to her reasoning. She did not give Amakusa any chance to defend himself and simply declared him guilty based on flimsy reasoning and the preconceived idea that "I am going to be betrayed", twisting all evidence into supporting that conclusion. 
Sindai fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 19:31
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Congratulations thread! You've finally proven magic and witches are fake!
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Nov 26, 2017 19:47
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Nah. Ange is now the captain of her own destiny.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:56
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There's only one judge on the <Good> Ship Trick End
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Nov 26, 2017 21:34
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TheArchimage posted:But what solid evidence does Ange have that she's right? None. It's all circumstantial evidence, and she decided beforehand that she would not accept any evidence contrary to her reasoning. She did not give Amakusa any chance to defend himself and simply declared him guilty based on flimsy reasoning and the preconceived idea that "I am going to be betrayed", twisting all evidence into supporting that conclusion. The thing we don't know if she's right about is if Amakusa was supposed to kill ANGE. It could easily have been a setup to kill her aunt because her aunt was inevitably going to go off the rails and attempt to murder Ange. Ange is being paranoid here, yes, but she's in a situation where people actually are literally out to get her. The thing that makes this positive development for Ange though is literally just that she lives instead of dies and wants to live instead of die. It's the <good> ending, not the happy ending or the morally just ending. RIP boatman. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 21:39
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PetraCore posted:Guns are really hard to get in Japan, and we know she's right because we've seen what happens if she goes to the island and her aunt confronts her. We don't know that she's right about the boat captain. And besides, someone's conclusion being right doesn't mean the reasoning that led them to that conclusion is valid.
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Nov 26, 2017 21:40
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Idran posted:We don't know that she's right about the boat captain. EDIT: That said Ange's conclusion about the guns is super valid imo, there's solid reasoning and evidence there and the scarcity of guns in Japan further supports that. Her reasoning is valid, but tainted at the end by the feeling that everyone wants her dead.
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Nov 26, 2017 21:43
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PetraCore posted:Yeah I edited to reflect that. It's likely Amakusa was supposed to kill her or ended up killing her in the bad timeline, but iirc we don't know for sure, Ange gets shot and then everyone is being snipered by Amakusa. And the boat captain isn't indicated to be part of the plot, either, she's just paranoid and also he saw her commit murder. That's fair on the latter, yeah; it's more the unwarranted confidence, I suppose. The issue with trying to do the super-deduction thing circumstantial evidence is that there's usually other explanations to support the evidence that are equally as valid but if you happen to be right then you come off as a genius about it. But the thing about guns in Japan makes it more solid an inference in this case, yeah. Less super-deduction ridiculousness and more just a "most likely explanation" thing, with her personal paranoia making her more confident that she got it right (in both cases) as you said.
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Nov 26, 2017 21:52
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There is plenty of evidence right here that Amakusa was going to kill Ange. (That <Cool> is his catchphrase, not something Eva would say.) But there is also plenty of evidence that he genuinely didn't want to kill her, that he actually cared about her to some degree and wanted to see her life a healthy life. (See: that conversation about child soldiers.) So Ange could probably prevent Amakusa from killing her just by convincing him she wasn't to do something crazy like turn all her assets into cash and use them to build the world's most expensive funeral pyre for her extravagant suicide. But the Erika thing to do is see evidence of the worst possible conclusion, and focus solely on that to the exclusion of all other evidence.
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Nov 26, 2017 22:37
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Yeah everything wrong with what Ange did can be pointed out with that Erika segment in episode 6. Taking after someone like Erika is awful.
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Nov 26, 2017 22:38
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I guess we will have to see how the other ending is gonna differ from the <good> ending. (I'll admit, realising why it was called that made me grin). If Ange in the Magic ending is just gonna go along with Amakusa believing what she is told and get herself killed then yeah, at least this way she lives. But magic for her might also mean "figure out some crazy scheme that not only keeps her alive but also makes everyone involved wonder how the gently caress she pulled it off". Or maybe magic in the sense of appealing to Amakusa's feelings as some have brought up. The Trick ending just leaves a bit of a bad aftertaste with how much Ange is following in Eirika's footsteps. Yeah, she lives but whether this is the best outcome is gonna be decided if the other can maybe end things in a happy way involving less murder.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:19
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ZiegeDame posted:There is plenty of evidence right here that Amakusa was going to kill Ange. (That <Cool> is his catchphrase, not something Eva would say.) But there is also plenty of evidence that he genuinely didn't want to kill her, that he actually cared about her to some degree and wanted to see her life a healthy life. (See: that conversation about child soldiers.) So Ange could probably prevent Amakusa from killing her just by convincing him she wasn't to do something crazy like turn all her assets into cash and use them to build the world's most expensive funeral pyre for her extravagant suicide. But the Erika thing to do is see evidence of the worst possible conclusion, and focus solely on that to the exclusion of all other evidence. To get the other guy before they get you, in such an overwhelming manner that there can be no mistake of who is the victor. To be the one who hurts, instead of the one who is hurt. To become a rapist, in other words. A defiler in the name of the self, a spreader of the misery and horror of her own heart. Erika wasn't just an antagonist... she was a warning. Since this follows the letter of the valediction that Ange not die...I don't suppose I can call it a bad ending, just a possibility. A hollow possibility, and one that lacks love... but viable, if somewhat sacrificial on the long term (how is she going to dispose of the bodies? She'll have to get rid of the boat, but how will she do that without raising questions, since she was the last person either of these men were seen with? If she said she was hunted by the Sumaderas, that would just raise more questions, invite more scrutiny... Does she intend to spend her life sailing on this nice boat?) It is abhorrent to me. Does that mean I now have love?
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Nov 27, 2017 00:23
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Amakusa does seem to genuinely like her, so he wouldn't be opposed to being bribed or otherwise convinced to work for her and not them, given he had abandoned jobs befores.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:26
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These are a lot of posts saying you all suddenly trust people in power to start doing right by Ange despite all the suspicious signs and scenes so far. Including Amakusa's secret instructions. I ain't sayin' but I'm just sayin'. 
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Nov 27, 2017 01:15
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Count me in as another person who's going to wait for the magic ending. So far I'm liking the <Good> ending though, even though it's so horrible. I wonder what Amakusa's explanation for that certain gun is going to be...  Thinking about other things, I guess one of the reasons why the catbox is so important for Battler and Ange is to hide the fact that Kyrie and Rudolf are the killers so that way Ange can have the hope of living a better life if no one found out. I'm hoping that maybe the other endings of the game or maybe the manga spell out what actually caused the explosion because I'm the type of person who sometimes needs obvious answers.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:37
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resurgam40 posted:(how is she going to dispose of the bodies? She'll have to get rid of the boat, but how will she do that without raising questions, since she was the last person either of these men were seen with? If she said she was hunted by the Sumaderas, that would just raise more questions, invite more scrutiny... Does she intend to spend her life sailing on this nice boat?) Dump them into the ocean, the Golden Truth, and quite possibly.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:59
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I'm concerned suddenly that this is going to be a Life of Pi-esque situation, and when we see the magic ending it will be just a delusional version of this, but like, with bunnygirls or whatever.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:11
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So far, the trick end is the one working off episode 4. My guess is the magic end is the one where she goes to meet Hachijou instead of getting on the boat, the one starting off episode 6. Also, this is truly the <good> end.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:40
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ZiegeDame posted:Dump them into the ocean Just like that? Without any attempt to disfigure them to remove identifying features, or cutting them up? And even then, she'd have to take them out to deep sea, where there are no currents to bear them back to shore, because otherwise it's too much of a risk that a fishing crew would find them before rotting too much for identification- and even then, you'd better make sure they don't have any jewelry that could end up in a fish's belly. These questions are kinda what bring the ending down for me: for all of the implied intelligence and ruthlessness of the reborn Ange, you'd think they'd be able to accomplish a more skillful murder than just capping two guys in a boat with a crew of three. Being your parent's child doesn't mean you should repeat your parents mistakes- in a more grievous manner too, as there is no bomb to remove this boat from existence. It means she has not truly grown... and thus she is incompetent, as are those before her. The curse continues. These are the questions that have to be asked, if you want to reach the truth. If Ange's illusions don't hold up to even such rudimentary scrutiny as mine, how can they be called true magic?
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Nov 27, 2017 04:34
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TheArchimage posted:But what solid evidence does Ange have that she's right? None. It's all circumstantial evidence, and she decided beforehand that she would not accept any evidence contrary to her reasoning. To be fair, when you've determined you're being tricked, there's little reason to accept evidence to the contrary from the one who's tricking you. On our level of meta, that person would be R07.
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Nov 27, 2017 04:47
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Looking back at that scene with Kasumi it's really interesting like, foreshadowing of the kind of person Ange could become if she had stuck to revenge as her primary motivation for living. It feels like Kasumi did something similar regarding Kyrie and when Kyrie died the entire basis of her world fell out from under her, and things spiraled out. Being the brutally trained heir for a crime family didn't help matters there, but what Ange says in this ending is that Kasumi is such a raging sadist that even her own family wants her dead, because she no longer commits violent acts towards a purpose so much as violence is the purpose, presumably. And that's very similar to the perspective of Bernkastel, where Bernkastel is sadistic and destructive because if she stops to think and process her own emotions, she can't help but be torn up by all the pain she's been through. And like, this is obvious stuff, I'm probably just restating stuff everyone's thought of, but if I had to pick one solid thing Umineko is about, it's the difference between coping and recovering. Nobody in this story has been really good at recovering. Even when Beatrice flips from being a cruel villain to an amoral ally, that's just a flip in perspective, it's not Sayo really getting better. And for a lot of characters, the chance to try to improve and heal and build something good from their pain is absolutely not there, because they're all dead. Ange's not dead. She can't snap her fingers and recover, trauma doesn't work like that, but it feels like this last arc has been all about the steps she needs to take as a person to start healing. Like, she thinks she needs closure by finding out what actually happened on that day, but that's not actually what she needs, and learning the truth just pushes her further into a destructive spiral. Because you can't... like, you can't make your recovery contingent on other people. What Ange needed was not to be abused but she can't make that happen. She will never get the childhood she deserved by dint of being a person. And walking that line between allowing yourself to be upset by what happened to you but not letting that choke out everything else is hard. I hope she makes it.  POOL IS CLOSED posted:These are a lot of posts saying you all suddenly trust people in power to start doing right by Ange despite all the suspicious signs and scenes so far. Including Amakusa's secret instructions. I ain't sayin' but I'm just sayin'.
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Nov 27, 2017 04:48
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PetraCore posted:I mean it's solid canon that there is at least one powerful group of people out to get Ange at this point in the timeline, and things have been so well coordinated against her that her paranoia is absolutely justified. It's just also true that people under pressure make bad decisions, and leaning into absolute first-strike self-defense isn't a great decision. I disagree on the first strike thing. We know there are people around her, including family members, who are absolutely willing to murder her -- and she's basically a kid. She's smaller and weaker and less experienced. Surprise is the only thing on her side. Waiting to see if someone else will fire the first shot isn't a wise choice, even if it's a more loving one. What's his face the chairman is not on her side, unless you're willing to chalk up those scenes where he's planning behind her back about how to dispose of her or sideline her in order to control the family fortune as strictly her fantasies. It's fair to suspect that, but then we have to wonder exactly how many of the apparently mundane characters in the mostly mundane framing story of Ange's journey to Rokkenjima are, in fact, fantasy creatures just like Erika and Featherine.
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Nov 27, 2017 05:05
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resurgam40 posted:Just like that? Without any attempt to disfigure them to remove identifying features, or cutting them up? And even then, she'd have to take them out to deep sea, where there are no currents to bear them back to shore, because otherwise it's too much of a risk that a fishing crew would find them before rotting too much for identification- and even then, you'd better make sure they don't have any jewelry that could end up in a fish's belly. Alright, let's do this. Let's plot a crime in reverse. So the captain is the only person on that boat that anyone is actually going to miss. Should his body wash up somewhere besides Rokkenjima (where nobody would ever find it) it'd be really easy to blame his death on the professional mercenary/hitman. Should Amakusa's body also wash up, well, they were both killed by the favored gun of the Sumadera family, so there's plenty of suspects to pin it on besides the 18 year old girl, who could have easily fled to some tropical paradise with no extradition treaty long before any bodies would be discovered.
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Nov 27, 2017 05:08
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Also... look, even if currents carry the bodies to Rokkenjima, that's a lot of shoreline on an apparently unpopulated island. A lot of that shoreline isn't particularly reachable to judge by the cliffs incident. It's not an easy thing to find a body lost in the wilderness, much less one lost at sea. And there are a lot of crabs out there. eta: don't do crimes!!!
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Nov 27, 2017 05:12
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:I disagree on the first strike thing. We know there are people around her, including family members, who are absolutely willing to murder her -- and she's basically a kid. She's smaller and weaker and less experienced. Surprise is the only thing on her side. Waiting to see if someone else will fire the first shot isn't a wise choice, even if it's a more loving one. What's his face the chairman is not on her side, unless you're willing to chalk up those scenes where he's planning behind her back about how to dispose of her or sideline her in order to control the family fortune as strictly her fantasies. It's fair to suspect that, but then we have to wonder exactly how many of the apparently mundane characters in the mostly mundane framing story of Ange's journey to Rokkenjima are, in fact, fantasy creatures just like Erika and Featherine. EDIT: Also the first strike is a bad decision because long-term it's going to complicate things, not because it's bad for short term survival. I'm willing to concede that you need short term survival to get long term survival and that the situation is already extremely complicated and stacked against Ange, though. Maybe she should smuggle herself to Italy and change her name to Beatrice.
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Nov 27, 2017 05:48
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I suspect the magic ending can be basically summed up as "Ange goes to see Hachijou instead of going to Rokkenjima, finds not-Battler, and Amakusa decides it's not really necessary to kill her because alive not-Battler presents a new element". They're also close enough to Rokkenjima that I don't think Ange really needs to worry about their bodies going anywhere else. They're pretty much at the dock, after all, and there's a pretty solid chance that even if the Sumaderas find the bodies, they'll just quietly clean it up.
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Nov 27, 2017 06:28
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