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One can also argue - convincingly - that Banishers want an even worse Lie than the Exarchs. They want a world dead to truth, a world in which the real, true universe has no access to the mortal world. Consider that, to prevent Awakening, the Exarchs must make the world a terrible place, and consider further that we know what realms utterly dead to the Supernal look like: the Lower Depths. Sure, killing wizards is relatable - but an Ascended Banisher would be a disaster for all life. Likewise, the Bridgeburners are more than willing to sacrifice everything to achieve their goal, heedless of consequence...including breaking ancient pacts with the Seasons, say, or doing a thing that might keep the sun from rising tomorrow. Because Fae magic is real, and the deals are real.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:33
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'll be honest I'm always surprised by how often Banishers get given a 'yeah they're probably right' response on this forum? Well, the frailties of human nature do make every mage a potential threat to everyone and everything around them, and on top of that, the very nature of Paradox makes every mage a persistent threat to reality itself. The Abyss is an utterly existential threat, arguably beyond even the Exarchs, and that's especially true from the perspective of mages who've experienced Abyssal intrusions but never (knowingly) crossed paths with the Seers. Banishers might be totally wrong on several fundamental levels, but they're often wrong for the right reasons. Banishers would be more textually sympathetic if not for the fact that so much of the word count that's been given to them over the years has focused on the most oWoD-y Banisher stereotypes: wannabe Inquisitors, delusional self-denying skeptics, and the like.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:37
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Mors Rattus posted:One can also argue - convincingly - that Banishers want an even worse Lie than the Exarchs. They want a world dead to truth, a world in which the real, true universe has no access to the mortal world. Consider that, to prevent Awakening, the Exarchs must make the world a terrible place, and consider further that we know what realms utterly dead to the Supernal look like: the Lower Depths. Sure, killing wizards is relatable - but an Ascended Banisher would be a disaster for all life. Can it really be called the truth if it could be taken down by one pissed off human wanting to shut down or severely damage the whole thing though? It's a truth. The preferred truth of mages since it basically puts them close to the top of the born-human supernatural pecking order. I mean, you could argue that the Supernal is the truth as a result of mages having a portion of the controlling stake in the course of the setting. But at that point you're essentially making an appeal to force and authority due to their power compared to the average human and whoops now you're basically quoting one of the principal tenets the Exarch's used to gently caress up and unnaturally alter reality in the first place. Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 19:41
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If you want to deny the actual game text explanation of the Supernal-as-truth because you don't like gnostic fragility of truth, there's really no point to this discussion.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:44
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Mors Rattus posted:If you want to deny the actual in-game explanation of the Supernal because you don't like gnostic fragility of truth, there's really no point to this discussion. Gnostic concepts don't really play into it though? It's a pretty big plot point in one of the newer books that there's been other ways of looking at it that are entirely different and valid. Like the Vinca era mini-line that had mages producing all sorts of different effects from the main game line as a result of their differing views. It even mentions that if mages knew about that they'd probably be really interested in poking around that portion of history. Really, mages dicker about with the inherent meanings behind symbolism writ large onto reality. Gnosticism is just lens that it gets viewed through in most areas of the setting. Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 19:49
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Mors Rattus posted:One can also argue - convincingly - that Banishers want an even worse Lie than the Exarchs. They want a world dead to truth, a world in which the real, true universe has no access to the mortal world. Consider that, to prevent Awakening, the Exarchs must make the world a terrible place, and consider further that we know what realms utterly dead to the Supernal look like: the Lower Depths. Sure, killing wizards is relatable - but an Ascended Banisher would be a disaster for all life. The lower depths come about due to some profound lack to their existence, but can you be certain it's a lack of some supernal element? Mages get too focused on the Supernal as the only, singular, big-T Truth. It's quite possible that the Fallen World would generate something to fill the gap suddenly left by supernal influence being ripped out. Hell, the notion that the fallen world is a shadow cast by the supernal is ultimately an assumption made by mages. For all they know, the supernal is a wholly separate entity that is more akin to a reality virus, like abyssal manifestions that got really big to the point where they begun warping the other reality they were parasitizing as a whole. Edit: To elaborate, using the supernal in the fallen world is not fundamentally different from an abyssal manifestation, both involve injecting and overwriting via a second separate 'reality', it just happens that reality as it currently is happens to be more open to supernal meddling than whatever nascent reality got barfed out by the abyss, which I consider to be more like a pile of incredibly unstable alternate realities that got packed into a space that was way too small for them. Obligatum VII fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 19:55
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As depicted in the Core, and also more generally in the line as I've read it, the Supernal isn't just 'a dimension out there' - it's a universal and sustaining layer of things. Mages see the Supernal in everything that's not the Abyss, according to 2e, and while Mages get different results with different approaches, I haven't seen any evidence that there's no there there in the setting - when you run Mage-as-written, the Supernal is Platonic symbol-truth. It's where the Forms are. If you rip that out of reality, what remains? And if you declare 'actually the Supernal isn't what the entire premise of the gameline says it is' ... you've ripped it just as thoroughly out of the setting, and again, what remains to be played? That doesn't (and shouldn't) apply to other Chronicles lines, because making their metaphysics match up is a bad decision and leads to silliness. But I don't see what the point of Mage: The Awakening is if the Supernal is just the Magic Dimension and magic is an inherently alien force to reality, as opposed to being the underlying reality the Lie suppresses. EDIT: I just don't see what the appeal is of the Supernal as a 'reality virus' or 'it's just the abyss basically!' - that's just boring and uninteresting as a source of tension, let alone a major theme of horror. "Actually, there is no higher truth in this game about seeing behind the veil" just leads to 'well why the hell should I care about any of these things, except for what I can do with them?' If the Supernal isn't meaningful, and has no purpose but power, why not just be a Scelestus and get the strong stuff? Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 20:10
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I don't think most banishers want to blot out supernal truth itself, or even are aware of the supernal as a layer of reality or whatever. It's specifically supernal magic, they want to destroy, and they at least have an argument there because supernal magic is demonstrably ruinous to both the human psyche and the general stability of material existence.
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Nov 26, 2017 20:16
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Joe Slowboat posted:If you rip that out of reality, what remains? And if you declare 'actually the Supernal isn't what the entire premise of the gameline says it is' ... you've ripped it just as thoroughly out of the setting, and again, what remains to be played? Just want to point out that you basically described Werewolf's post-Father Wolf world. What werewolves think of as Pangaea in the modern portion of the setting is a place called the Border Marches that lay between reality proper and the spirit world before their god died and it all kind of imploded on itself. It's beyond any information we currently have to describe what'd happen if the Supernal went away. But that doesn't detract from the in setting stuff relating to the argument. From what we know it seems like the setting has gone through at least two big changes where a setting "crucial" alternate reality/dimension/whatever was destroyed and the rest of it kept on trucking plus some scars. quote:The world is not a solid fabric, but rather a patchwork interwoven with threads of the spirit world. It is possible for a human to simply walk into the spirit realm, if she knows the right paths to take and the right places to turn. Through the Border Marches, the place the Uratha call Pangaea, denizens of both worlds can traverse into the other. As a result of this, spirits are everywhere... Hell, if the Dark Ages book is any indication both that and the Exarch's cocking the world up happened in a relatively short period of time. Only for reality and the space time continuum to kind of buckle a bit as a result of it all. CofD/NWoD's version of reality is a hell of a lot sturdier than the OWoD's. Knowing that it's kind of doubtful that the Supernal is that vitally important. Though it's probably beyond the scope to predict how the setting would turn out if it was taken down outside of home brewed stuff. Taking down the supernal and freeing humanity from the tyranny of magic or whatever is the sort of insane end game level epic arc that doesn't really have a carry through anyways if you're playing mage. I mean, what could you even aim for after killing a bunch of magical wannabe gods and forever ending the possibility of anyone else cocking the world up? Archonex fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 20:25
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Archonex posted:Gnostic concepts don't really play into it though? They absolutely do. The Supernal isn't just an alien otherworld, it's explicitly the sustaining, underlying reality - think Plato's Forms. That's a direct comparison by the devs, outside the books. Supernal Symbols are the forms which find expression in the physical world. There's a lot to be said about the relation there - it's not purely one-to-one, in that many variations on a symbol exist and the interactions of symbols creates huge spaces for different phenomenological realities. But on a basic level, the Supernal constitutes the Fallen World the way the laws of physics constitute our world. Ferrinus posted:I don't think most banishers want to blot out supernal truth itself, or even are aware of the supernal as a layer of reality or whatever. It's specifically supernal magic, they want to destroy, and they at least have an argument there because supernal magic is demonstrably ruinous to both the human psyche and the general stability of material existence. That's more functional but I'm really not convinced one can destroy magic without destroying the Supernal, as presented in Mage. If they could find a way to 'cure' or prevent Gnosis, the weird spiritual state created by witnessing the Supernal, that could I guess be done without destroying the Supernal? Which probably means toppling the Watchtowers. Also it means the Exarchs rule reality forever in tyranny.
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Nov 26, 2017 20:28
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Archonex posted:a setting "crucial" alternate reality/dimension/whatever The Supernal is, explicitly, not this. It's the underlying symbolic order. The fact that wizard physics has its own rules and you can become a wizard physics conceptual object don't take away from the fact that the Supernal is wizard physics, not The Wizard Zone. Also, it's pretty explicit that getting rid of the Shadow is probably impossible and would have consequences (or maybe requirements?) like 'life cannot exist, nor emotion, nor change' and the Shadow is absolutely a Spirit Zone, not Spirit Physics. The Sundering is more the equivalent of the ascension of the Exarchs than the end of the Supernal.
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Nov 26, 2017 20:32
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Joe Slowboat posted:The Supernal is, explicitly, not this. It's the underlying symbolic order. And yet it's depicted as being able to be traveled into, has entities symbolic of the world and people's beliefs and actions that can be interacted with not just by mages but other beings as well, and generally is depicted as being as much of a place as the other alternate realities. That it's all tied into different mechanics from the Shadow is irrelevant from the perspective of the player and to more than a few mages. Also you're misreading a lot of what was said. I didn't say that the Shadow was destroyed, nor was that even the place I mentioned. Likewise, the original point was what happened if a Banisher "cleared the board" by removing the ability for mages to exist or gently caress with the world. Which doesn't necessarily mean destroying the Supernal. The conversation just kind of lead that way. Ferrinus posted:I don't think most banishers want to blot out supernal truth itself, or even are aware of the supernal as a layer of reality or whatever. It's specifically supernal magic, they want to destroy, and they at least have an argument there because supernal magic is demonstrably ruinous to both the human psyche and the general stability of material existence. Edit: Ugh. gently caress it. I feel like i'm talking to a brick wall here. Archonex fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 20:40
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Archonex posted:And yet it's depicted as being able to be traveled into, has entities symbolic of the world and people's beliefs and actions that can be interacted with not just by mages but other beings as well, and generally is depicted as being as much of a place as the other alternate realities. By this argument, the Astral is a fully distinct place from human thought, and an individual person's 'Oneiros' is totally distinct from their mind. Which, I mean, I guess you could argue that, but it's such a pointless multiplication of entities and it doesn't jibe with how the relationship is depicted in any case. EDIT: I understand you were using the Border Marches as an example, but they clearly are not as fundamental as the Shadow, being literally a border between the Shadow and the Flesh. And furthermore, your argument was 'one could remove one of these extra realities and the world would be fine' - but clearly that's not even universally true for other dimensions and places, such as the Shadow. FURTHER EDIT: I readily admit that one can imagine Banishers ending the capacity for magic in the world, though that seems to cede the universe to the Exarchs. If that's really the pro-Banisher position, I'll accept that that seems bad but not universe-killing. But you were the one to argue for the Supernal not really being important or metaphysically useful. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 20:44
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Joe Slowboat posted:FURTHER EDIT: I readily admit that one can imagine Banishers ending the capacity for magic in the world, though that seems to cede the universe to the Exarchs. If that's really the pro-Banisher position, I'll accept that that seems bad but not universe-killing. But you were the one to argue for the Supernal not really being important or metaphysically useful. That wasn't my argument at all, actually. But it's fine. It's not that important of an argument, really. And given the reaction the last time I saw mage chat people probably don't want to see another multi page argument over the mechanics of the setting. Has there been any news of on what White Wolf has been doing to continue screwing up the OWoD franchise? I knew they had a bunch of games planned but after their weirdly bigoted virtual novel phone games flopped they just kind of went silent on that front.
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Nov 26, 2017 20:56
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Joe Slowboat posted:That's more functional but I'm really not convinced one can destroy magic without destroying the Supernal, as presented in Mage. If they could find a way to 'cure' or prevent Gnosis, the weird spiritual state created by witnessing the Supernal, that could I guess be done without destroying the Supernal? Which probably means toppling the Watchtowers. If you wanted to "destroy magic" you probably WOULD have to unleash the abyss dissolve all reality into a maelstrom of nonbeing, or cure humanity of "having an imagination", or some other hideous travesty, yeah. I guess in the contemporary world, with the abyss already existing, somehow destroying each watchtower might be sufficient? Assuming the watchtowers aren't spontaneous (super)natural phenomena or post-hoc metaphors something. Fortunately most banishers can't even conceive of these things because no one's taught them what magic is or where it comes from.
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Nov 26, 2017 21:12
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Archonex posted:Has there been any news of on what White Wolf has been doing to continue screwing up the OWoD franchise? I knew they had a bunch of games planned but after their weirdly bigoted virtual novel phone games flopped they just kind of went silent on that front. There's supposed to be an Apocalypse game in development by Cyanide, but despite supposedly being shown at E3 all that's available is concept art. The official site is blank http://werewolf-videogame.com/en I think it was announced way too soon for some reason.
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Nov 26, 2017 21:37
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Joe Slowboat posted:As depicted in the Core, and also more generally in the line as I've read it, the Supernal isn't just 'a dimension out there' - it's a universal and sustaining layer of things. Mages see the Supernal in everything that's not the Abyss, according to 2e, and while Mages get different results with different approaches, I haven't seen any evidence that there's no there there in the setting - when you run Mage-as-written, the Supernal is Platonic symbol-truth. It's where the Forms are. The stuff described in the mage book is as described by mages. There's nothing that really enforces the idea that the Supernal is what mages think it is in terms of mechanics. Of course, this is all subject to individual tastes and how people choose to run their games. I personally like the concept, to borrow the tired cave metaphor, that mages noticed the fire, assumed they figured everything out, and then never tried walking out of the cave. And there's plenty of meaning in a world that lacks some objective super-reality dictating what meaning is. You just have to make that meaning for yourself.
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Nov 26, 2017 21:52
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I didn't mean 'is existential meaning possible in a world without the Supernal' I meant 'what is the point of playing Mage without the Gnostic revelation being worth anything?' The central and compelling theme in Mage, for me, is how mages react to there being a Truth out there, that they have briefly seen, and that the world wants to keep hidden. Take that away and there's so much less of a unifying point to the game that I don't know what one would want to do with it thematically.
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Nov 26, 2017 22:15
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Archonex posted:Gnostic concepts don't really play into it though?
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Nov 26, 2017 22:28
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Obligatum VII posted:The stuff described in the mage book is as described by mages. There's nothing that really enforces the idea that the Supernal is what mages think it is in terms of mechanics. Of course, this is all subject to individual tastes and how people choose to run their games. I personally like the concept, to borrow the tired cave metaphor, that mages noticed the fire, assumed they figured everything out, and then never tried walking out of the cave. I really don't want to open the door of 'actually, the rules and setting text are unreliable narators' in nWoD, we left that behind 20 fuckin' years ago.
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Nov 26, 2017 22:35
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Obligatum VII posted:The stuff described in the mage book is as described by mages. There's nothing that really enforces the idea that the Supernal is what mages think it is in terms of mechanics. Of course, this is all subject to individual tastes and how people choose to run their games. I personally like the concept, to borrow the tired cave metaphor, that mages noticed the fire, assumed they figured everything out, and then never tried walking out of the cave. This is an attitude that various nWoD 1e supplements (mostly from other game lines) occasionally implied, but has never been the case and is expressly false in 2E.
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Nov 26, 2017 22:36
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Eh. Joe has the right of it - the Supernal *is* just the Meaning behind things, more like "mathematics" than "Idaho." The Supernal World that mages see in their Sight is the phenomenal (physical or ephemeral) world they're in with the Symbols corresponding to their Path overlaid onto it. The Matrix analogy used for Awakening a lot breaks down a bit, because the Supernal Realm isn't the real world wasteland while the Fallen world's the piss-filtered City: The Fallen is the city, the Supernal World is what Neo sees in his transcendent moments, the Supernal Realm is the code itself and the real world... Doesn't exist. Supernal Entities only exist when you're looking at them, because your filtering of the Supernal into a world-shaped thing you can interact with includes populating it. Even archmasters, when they travel "into" the Supernal Realm proper have to expend a great deal of energy constructing an environment to be inside, picking one Symbol and making a Lustrum out of it. The five Path Worlds don't exist the way the Shadow does - they're just filter-sets. I'd say they don't "really exist", but part of Mage's deal is that conceptual things like the Supernal are more "real" than concrete things like Boston. This is sort of similar to some of the Astral's concepts - an astral environment only exists in the way you experience while you're experiencing it - but even then, there's more of a direct push-pull feedback thing. Be inside someone's Oneiros when a supernatural monster removes their capacity to feel guilt, and watch the landscape rearrange itself accordingly. Kill someone's shame and they act differently in material reality until it grows back. The Supernal *is*."Destroying" it is like destroying numbers. What Banishers - those that aren't just tragic metamorphic Awakenings who didn't grow a Wisdom trait properly and are sent insane by their own powers, or those who prey on magic for their own ends but would like it to keep existing - want isn't to destroy the Supernal, it's to destroy mages. Or to make it harder to gently caress about with the world using magic, at least. If you somehow destroyed the Supernal Realm, everything else - the material world, the Shadow, the Underworld - would cease to exist.
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Nov 26, 2017 22:36
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Is there a difference, morally, between Banishers and Hunters who want to gently caress up mages?
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Nov 26, 2017 23:04
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Pope Guilty posted:Is there a difference, morally, between Banishers and Hunters who want to gently caress up mages? Arguably the second kind of Banisher has a way better idea of what they're doing and why than any Sleeping hunter ever will.
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Nov 26, 2017 23:22
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Pope Guilty posted:Is there a difference, morally, between Banishers and Hunters who want to gently caress up mages? Depends on how you draw your morality. I prefer sort of simply for this I think the hunters would probably sleep better at night knowing that they're presumably hunting bad things that hurt people with methods that are mundane (or there about). Cosmology arguments aside, Banishers have seen Truth and rejected it. Now they're trying to kill others like them out of whatever reason. They can pretend that it's to protect the world from the "big bad mages", but by doing it with magic they are the monster they're hunting and that puts them on less solid ground. --------------- In mechanics news, does anyone have any resources I should look at when messing with CT in Awakening 2e? I've run into a sort of area I dislike when it comes to finding interesting and useful Reaches and additional arcanum mechanics. It feels like a very awkward line to walk between reaches/added arcanum and just flat out combined spells. The core doesn't seem to address this much (at least not that I've found). So I guess we're in a place where we're trying to do cool things with magic, but are just trying to stay somewhat consistent with application.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:20
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Pope Guilty posted:Is there a difference, morally, between Banishers and Hunters who want to gently caress up mages? Their Morality stat?  I like how Dave has a Seers of the Throne avatar and title.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:31
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Archonex posted:Has there been any news of on what White Wolf has been doing to continue screwing up the OWoD franchise? I knew they had a bunch of games planned but after their weirdly bigoted virtual novel phone games flopped they just kind of went silent on that front. There was a second playtest packet and demo game that made the con rounds and I think is available now online (though it may cost a dollar or something). Reactions overall to it seemed more muted than the first one. It lacked both the hilarity of the gay spartan cosplayers and the poo poo of...well, pretty much everything else. Most reactions to it I saw seemed to think the mechanics ideas were still poo poo, but it wasn't as actively offensive as the other stuff nuWW has barfed out so far.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:31
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RBA-Wintrow posted:
I'd buy a Seers of the Throne shirt. I could wear it to work and chuckle about ministries.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:39
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cptn_dr posted:I'd buy a Seers of the Throne shirt. I could wear it to work and chuckle about ministries. It would need to be a polo shirt with an embroidered emblem of course. Only worn on casual Fridays.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:30
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Desiden posted:There was a second playtest packet and demo game that made the con rounds and I think is available now online (though it may cost a dollar or something). Reactions overall to it seemed more muted than the first one. It lacked both the hilarity of the gay spartan cosplayers and the poo poo of...well, pretty much everything else. Most reactions to it I saw seemed to think the mechanics ideas were still poo poo, but it wasn't as actively offensive as the other stuff nuWW has barfed out so far. That's...Surprising, actually. Everything that's come out of White Wolf recently has been offensive and dumb as hell. Dave Brookshaw posted:What Banishers - those that aren't just tragic metamorphic Awakenings who didn't grow a Wisdom trait properly and are sent insane by their own powers, or those who prey on magic for their own ends but would like it to keep existing - want isn't to destroy the Supernal, it's to destroy mages. Or to make it harder to gently caress about with the world using magic, at least. That's what we were discussing before we got onto the destroying the supernal thing. Though it is fun to wonder what'd happen if mages suddenly lost access to their magic. I'm guessing the Seers would make a scene, at least. They've got a ton of money and allies to call on. Archonex fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 02:04
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Jhet posted:It would need to be a polo shirt with an embroidered emblem of course. Only worn on casual Fridays. Naturally. The ministry I work for has very sensible rules around casual Friday.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:39
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Archonex posted:That's...Surprising, actually. Everything that's come out of White Wolf recently has been offensive and dumb as hell. Well, a brief glance at the two authors listed on dtrpg suggests they're actual authors who have written for at least some books that were not-poo poo. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/221973/Rusted-Veins-V5-Alpha-Playtest I haven't played it or even done more than brief glance though. It may still be dumb, just not as overtly so as whoever (Sweddrac) shat out the first one.
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Nov 27, 2017 03:15
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Maybe nWoD needs to tinker with things a little if the conclusion of "the best thing for all concerned is if the imaginary aspect of the setting were destroyed" is so frequently and easily reached. Alternately, the Internet makes us all stupid.
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Nov 27, 2017 03:17
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Nessus posted:Maybe nWoD needs to tinker with things a little if the conclusion of "the best thing for all concerned is if the imaginary aspect of the setting were destroyed" is so frequently and easily reached. Alternately, the Internet makes us all stupid. Close the Hedge? Cool, everybody who was ever abducted is stuck in captivity and along the way you probably messed up a lot of stuff keeping some reeeeal bad faerie poo poo from happening Delete the Supernal? Ok that's the universe, ggwp all Destroy all/some aspect of the spirit world? Now something in the material world doesn't work right. Delete werewolves? As above only now it's a weird-rear end free for all Delete vampires? Actually, no this one's fine. With the exception of the last one there, I think the lesson of a lot of "the imaginary aspect of the setting[s]" is that the damage is done and now you've just got to live with the geohell you've got while trying to make the best of what little bits you can, because it's better than Literally Nothing.
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Nov 27, 2017 03:24
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Destroy The Principle? Congrats you just sped up the heat death of the universe by like 60,000%. (okay admittedly in reality this would be "ensure all Prometheans achieve the Dawn" and that would actually be a laudable and interesting thing to do to deliver peace to all of them but then somewhere down the line you're going to end up with a new Demiurge who starts playing with fire)
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Nov 27, 2017 04:26
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:The thing is, for a lot of the games if you destroy the imaginary aspects of the setting, it either causes irrevocable damage, or prevents existing damage from in any way being corrected. I legitimately appreciate that every other game has it's reasons and need to exist, and vampires continue to just be a big fat leech that could be completely excised with no overall loss.
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Nov 27, 2017 05:04
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ProfessorCirno posted:I legitimately appreciate that every other game has it's reasons and need to exist, and vampires continue to just be a big fat leech that could be completely excised with no overall loss. Vampires as always 100% on brand.
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Nov 27, 2017 05:24
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Hostile V posted:Destroy The Principle? Congrats you just sped up the heat death of the universe by like 60,000%. What's the Principle and why did my phone try to correct what's the to what're'ya??
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Nov 27, 2017 05:38
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Mors Rattus posted:I really don't want to open the door of 'actually, the rules and setting text are unreliable narators' in nWoD, we left that behind 20 fuckin' years ago. The rules and the setting text are reliable narrators, but some parts of the setting text are pretty clearly in the realm of "mages think this is how it works" rather than a firm statement and my point was that the rules didn't preclude a different take. Edit: Though it has been a while and I admit my memory could very well be fuzzy on the matter. In any case, talking about what is 'canon' is always a pretty dumb argument to get into and certainly not what I was trying to do. What I was attempting to get across is that it's not exactly a huge departure to take the mage setting from a very different angle. Obligatum VII fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 06:23
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xanthan posted:What's the Principle and why did my phone try to correct what's the to what're'ya??
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Nov 27, 2017 06:24
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