|
HEY GAL and others- can you recommend a good intro book on the thirty years war? I realise it's a long period to cover but I know very little about that time period
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 06:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 20:24 |
|
|
FAUXTON posted:how amazing must it be to just only enjoy reading the exact same poo poo that pops into your head while showering... Isn't this just Twitter's business plan?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 06:54
|
|
|
Europe's Tragedy was a goon favorite on the subject IIRC, but I haven't read it myself yet.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 07:07
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:Here's a hot take, cut off the heads of all the "royals" like they should've a hundred years ago so I don't have to read about a bunch of inbred do nothing's and their tabloid escapades written by a bunch of chumps who think this is still the age of Victoria. It doesn't help, the Romanov royal family is big news in Russia again somehow.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 07:25
|
|
|
Grumio posted:HEY GAL and others- can you recommend a good intro book on the thirty years war? I realise it's a long period to cover but I know very little about that time period Europe's Tragedy is kind of the thread standard, as mentioned. Tho if you know Swedish (for some bizarre reason), I'd recommend Dick Harrison's Ett stort lidande har kommit över oss because it's maybe more approachable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 08:23
|
|
|
Kemper Boyd posted:Tho if you know Swedish (for some bizarre reason), I'd recommend Dick Harrison's Ett stort lidande har kommit över oss because it's maybe more approachable. It's a shame if you don't. A couple of weeks ago, I saw Dick Harrison hold a lecture on the 13th century consolidation of royal power in Sweden, and it was like a Pentecostal tent revival.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 08:31
|
|
|
I know next to nothing about the French failure in Algiers- what happened? They know everything there is to know about a COIN war, take all the lessons home, have a short logistic distance and no external war to worry about. Did they take the wrong lessons on how the Gestapo and German army tried to deal with the Resistance? The pressure of the war caused a large blowback, but who was complaining about how they acted, considering most other European countries had just tried to do the same thing in the decade or so before hand?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 09:30
|
|
|
Comstar posted:I know next to nothing about the French failure in Algiers- what happened? They know everything there is to know about a COIN war, take all the lessons home, have a short logistic distance and no external war to worry about. Did they take the wrong lessons on how the Gestapo and German army tried to deal with the Resistance? The pressure of the war caused a large blowback, but who was complaining about how they acted, considering most other European countries had just tried to do the same thing in the decade or so before hand? Also, the French Republic at the time was politically unstable, was reeling from unsuccessful wars in French Indochina and had a series of attempted coups and almost a complete military rebellion. The opposition to the war was very much present within France itself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 09:47
|
|
|
13th KRRC War Diary, 28th/29th/30th Nov 1917 posted:Working Parties, 10 Officers, 320 men daily. The few men left in Camp employed salvaging material from evacuated Camps, and improving tracks and drainage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 10:26
|
|
|
Comstar posted:I know next to nothing about the French failure in Algiers- what happened? They know everything there is to know about a COIN war, take all the lessons home, have a short logistic distance and no external war to worry about. Did they take the wrong lessons on how the Gestapo and German army tried to deal with the Resistance? The pressure of the war caused a large blowback, but who was complaining about how they acted, considering most other European countries had just tried to do the same thing in the decade or so before hand? The situation in Algeria was really hosed up at the time. In addition to what Tekopo said there wasn't going to be a solution that was mutually acceptable to the Algerians and to the French. Even de Gaulle realized that any victory was pyrric at best and he would talk in private about how winning meant almost ten million Muslim Algerians voting in French elections - something he found unpalatable. The legacy of over a hundred years of imperialism wasn't going to vanish in one generation and during the war the French and French-Algerians were no strangers to war crimes against the Algerian population. Any chance of winning their trust was dead before the war even started and only got worse as the atrocities mounted. Check out the Phillipsville massacre or the FLN narrative of the Million-and-a-Half Martyrs and then reconcile that alongside attempts to establish liberal democracy through infrastructure or cultural education. The FLN didn't win Algeria by being a military threat to France, they won by keeping their leadership out the country, eliminating all the other Algerian rivals for a post-war government, and refusing to lose first. There's also the possibility that COIN just doesn't work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 10:28
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:Why do you make an exception for the Queen? Queenie's obviously booj and therefore obviously bad by virtue of that, but as booj go she at least performs a function. She's an icon to a lot of people and does a fairly good job of living up to that. She is fairly decent as celebrities go, I think is the difference.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 12:21
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Queenie's obviously booj and therefore obviously bad by virtue of that, but as booj go she at least performs a function. She's an icon to a lot of people and does a fairly good job of living up to that. She is fairly decent as celebrities go, I think is the difference. Aristocrats are not bourgeois, they are aristocrats.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 12:39
|
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Aristocrats are not bourgeois, they are aristocrats. I guess though she still owns a bunch of workable land and poo poo afaik.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 12:41
|
|
|
Ithle01 posted:The situation in Algeria was really hosed up at the time. In addition to what Tekopo said there wasn't going to be a solution that was mutually acceptable to the Algerians and to the French. Even de Gaulle realized that any victory was pyrric at best and he would talk in private about how winning meant almost ten million Muslim Algerians voting in French elections - something he found unpalatable. The legacy of over a hundred years of imperialism wasn't going to vanish in one generation and during the war the French and French-Algerians were no strangers to war crimes against the Algerian population. Any chance of winning their trust was dead before the war even started and only got worse as the atrocities mounted. Check out the Phillipsville massacre or the FLN narrative of the Million-and-a-Half Martyrs and then reconcile that alongside attempts to establish liberal democracy through infrastructure or cultural education. The FLN didn't win Algeria by being a military threat to France, they won by keeping their leadership out the country, eliminating all the other Algerian rivals for a post-war government, and refusing to lose first. I'm pretty sure COIN is kind of a mirage that everyone keeps chasing so as not to have to engage in that dirty thing called politics.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 12:43
|
|
|
Even if COIN alone is unable to deal with the political outcomes of imperial occupation, at the very least it posits you shouldn't do stupid poo poo like antagonize locals you are trying to police.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 13:18
|
|
|
Phobophilia posted:Even if COIN alone is unable to deal with the political outcomes of imperial occupation, at the very least it posits you shouldn't do stupid poo poo like antagonize locals you are trying to police. That's pretty easy to say but the whole point of militaries is to antagonize people- that's what they're made to do. Nobody goes "oh, let's just antagonize these people, heh heh heh", that's just how military operations work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 13:40
|
|
|
Elizabeth put her money on tax havens according to the paradise papers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 14:24
|
|
|
Grumio posted:HEY GAL and others- can you recommend a good intro book on the thirty years war? I realise it's a long period to cover but I know very little about that time period I know one of them personally but I won't tell you which one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 15:47
|
|
|
Plutonis posted:Elizabeth put her money on tax havens according to the paradise papers. isn't she queen of those tax havens tho
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 15:58
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:Oh cripes. If you want a narrative that turns the entire SOUP OF BULSHIT into a plot, that's wedgewood. If you want the best modern scholarship that takes a couple hundred pages to get to the war part, that's wilson. Maybe I’ll check out Wedgwood...I’ve tried Wilson a few times but I’m having a hard time getting past these initial chapters where he tries to explain to me how the Holy Roman Empire works
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 16:34
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Didn't France have real messy decolonization even past Vietnam? I know that they've been through a hell of a lot of wars in Africa because of it. It's not more than a couple of years ago they hosed up Mali because they had an insurgency of some kind. Artillery, foreign legion, the whole nine yards. E: Wiki says the FL is currently deployed in Guyané, Mayotte and Gabon on "protection" or "security" duties. Colonialism is alive and well. Tias fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Nov 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
RC and Moon Pie posted:That was the case with all upper class English divorces in the 1930s. That said, the upper class was split in opinion on Wallis Simpson. Divorce was basically impossible without proof of adultery until 1969. The standard procedure up till then was for the man to hire a room at a hotel, with a prostitute. At an agreed time, two members of staff, who had been paid off ahead of time, would enter and witness the couple in bed. They could then testify in court and you got a relatively trouble-free divorce. If you couldn't get the staff on board, you could hire private detectives to do the same. This isn't some fringe thing. Lots of novels from the period describe this procedure as if it were fairly common. Before the mid-19th century, it was basically impossible to get divorced, without an act of parliament (though ecclesiastical courts could provide annulments). There was a very widespread idea in the 18th century that you could break up a marriage by the man publicly selling his wife. This had no basis in law, but was apparently commonly practiced and tolerated. In 1744 the 2nd Duke of Chandos bought an ostler's wife for half a crown, though the practice was generally more common among the lower orders.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 18:20
|
|
|
quote:In 1744 the 2nd Duke of Chandos bought an ostler’s wife for half a crown This is the most 18th century sentence I’ve ever read
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 18:22
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:Divorce was basically impossible without proof of adultery until 1969. A slightly less baroque method involved you and your lawyer's secretary filing affidavits that you had engaged in adultery. Those secretaries would have had to have been the busiest women to engage in nearly the adultery reported... ...this system was still in place in New York in 2010: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/06/17/nyregion/17divorce.html
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
In the US it varied by state so a couple could live in a Nevada hotel for a month to establish residency and then no-fault divorce.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 18:34
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:In the US it varied by state so a couple could live in a Nevada hotel for a month to establish residency and then no-fault divorce. He's a hard-partying slob. She's a neurotic workaholic. But if they they want to get divorced, they need to spend one month sharing a hotel room in Reno!
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
Ainsley McTree posted:Maybe I’ll check out Wedgwood...I’ve tried Wilson a few times but I’m having a hard time getting past these initial chapters where he tries to explain to me how the Holy Roman Empire works "Intermittently."
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 18:47
|
|
|
Tias posted:It's not more than a couple of years ago they hosed up Mali because they had an insurgency of some kind. Artillery, foreign legion, the whole nine yards. francafrique really is the same poo poo but in more indirect ways
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 19:14
|
|
|
Ainsley McTree posted:I’ve tried Wilson a few times but I’m having a hard time getting past these initial chapters where he tries to explain to me how the Holy Roman Empire works Not on Wednesdays, because that buggers up both weekends
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 19:24
|
|
Ainsley McTree posted:This is the most 18th century sentence I’ve ever read All that is missing is the mentioning of the change being used to powder and de-lice a wig.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 19:49
|
|
|
Have we talked about the Tollense battle site? I'm just linking the wiki because the links from there represent all I know about it. Basicallyquote:Human remains from the Bronze Age have been found in the Tollense valley (Tollensetal) since 1997.[1] Many individuals showed signs of serious injury and violent death. Starting in 2008, archaeological study of the site zeroed in on an area of two square kilometers. Hundreds of bone fragments belonging to a very large number of persons have since been discovered along with further corroborating evidence of battle; current estimates indicate that perhaps 4000 warriors took part in a battle on the site circa 1250 BCE. These findings were possible due to the preservation of the former fen ground and the fact that the Tollense has never really changed its course. Since the population density then was about 5 people per square kilometer, this would have been the most significant battle in Bronze Age period Germany yet to be discovered. Moreover, the Tollense valley is so far the largest excavated battle site of this age anywhere in the world.[2] quote:Chemical tracers in the body remains indicate most of the Tollense warriors were from hundreds of kilometers away and ate millet, not grown in that part of the country at the time. The victims ran afoul of a mix of wooden clubs and flint and bronze arrows and spears, so this is at the tail end of the stone age. If you GIS it there's a pic of a guy with a bronze arrowhead stuck in his skull and another with a flint arrowhead in his humerus. It's nuts to me that these guys had all this stuff and we'll never even know what they called themselves, and how much other stuff we'll never know about because it didn't happen on ground capable of conserving the remains this well. e: if you're like me an interested layman the Sciencemag article seems like a comprehensive writeup: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Nov 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 20:09
|
|
|
That’s why they call the ears before written records pre-history. poo poo still happened but without writing it’s basically impossible for us to figure out what. Even areas like deserts that were good at leaving evidence of human activity tell us precious little.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 20:18
|
|
|
What could be considered the go to book for a general overview of The French Revolution? Has anyone read Citizens by Simon Scahma? Nothing from the 19th century please.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 20:28
|
|
|
Yeah. Crazy stuff.quote:In the waters of the Tollense, the excavators encountered a wooden structure that probably belonged to a bridge over the then much wider river. A dam of planks led up to them. The radiocarbon dating of the remains of the logs showed an age of 3900 years, but the system was still in operation at the time of the battle. Imagine a caravan roaming the early bronze age forests of central Europe with a cargo of Afghan lapis lazuli.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 20:30
|
|
|
Thanks for the suggestions. I've ordered Wilson, let's see how far I can make it
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
Wedgwood is seriously great cause she mastered the lost art of writing history like a human being.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 20:59
|
|
|
Shimrra Jamaane posted:What could be considered the go to book for a general overview of The French Revolution? Has anyone read Citizens by Simon Scahma?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:Wedgwood is seriously great cause she mastered the lost art of writing history like a human being.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 21:02
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:I enjoyed Citizens. I remember it got some bad press from academic historians, but apart from the usual sniffing about "popular history" I can't remember why. I thought it was great. Schama was taken to task for focusing on the lurid stuff - guillotining and the like - without mentioning any of the positive outcomes of the revolution. For Thirty Years War, I've always had a soft spot for Geoffrey Parker's book because he mentions an old SPI wargame in the bibliography.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 21:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 20:24 |
|
|
How about The Oxford History of the French Revolution? There's also a People's History of the French Revolution but at quick glance that seems to be really skewed to being overwhelming positive about everything.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2017 21:44
|
|