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Koalas March posted:Fascists are not people. Wouldnt this all be so much easier if that were true? But no, they are obviously people. People who want to terrible things and must be stopped. Thats what makes them dangerous.
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Nov 28, 2017 19:32
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Koalas March posted:yes massa, we won' rise up. political violence is wrong Only thedestruction of property.
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Nov 28, 2017 19:33
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Political violence is bad, I don't know why this thread needs to be reminded of this so often.
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Nov 28, 2017 19:35
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Grapplejack posted:Political violence is bad, I don't know why this thread needs to be reminded of this so often. If you support punching Nazis you support political violence. If you don’t support punching Nazis you’re an idiot.
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Nov 28, 2017 19:36
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Lightning Knight posted:I’m just going to put this out there: there are legitimate uses of political violence. We could imagine a scenario where violence would be appropriate. I didn’t have any outrage at the riots in Baltimore after Fredy Grey (although did anyone get hurt? Kinda debatable whether that’s political violence). It’s understandable. But within the context of net neutrality or of the Trump administration, I would not consider it wise or just.
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Nov 28, 2017 19:36
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GlyphGryph posted:Wouldnt this all be so much easier if that were true? They are not men. They are monsters. 
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Nov 28, 2017 19:37
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Democrazy posted:We could imagine a scenario where violence would be appropriate. I didn’t have any outrage at the riots in Baltimore after Fredy Grey (although did anyone get hurt? Kinda debatable whether that’s political violence). It’s understandable. But within the context of net neutrality or of the Trump administration, I would not consider it wise or just. I mean that’s ok, I’m just saying that acknowledging this makes the conversation about “when is political violence appropriate and condoneable” instead of “political violence is categorically bad.”
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Nov 28, 2017 19:38
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Lightning Knight posted:If you support punching Nazis you support political violence. Slave uprisings were also political violence. Using political violence to fight oppression is unfortunately a necessary evil at times.
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Nov 28, 2017 19:39
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean that’s ok, I’m just saying that acknowledging this makes the conversation about “when is political violence appropriate and condoneable” instead of “political violence is categorically bad.” That’s fair.
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Nov 28, 2017 19:45
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NewForumSoftware posted:when did I advocate for targeting the kids? Ah, sorry, I misread your post where you said that Franken's kids would be complicit if they didn't speak up or in some way go against his actions as referring to this situation. You later mentioned something about this only being if the children were adults, so it seems like I misinterpreted it as a comparison implying Pai's (presumably not adult) children bore responsibility for not going against his actions. In this case Democrazy's comment makes even less sense, given it seems like no way was explicitly saying it's okay to blame children for the sins of their parents. There were some people arguing that they didn't think the stuff posted constituted a threat (which I'm kind of mixed about; I can understand the argument that using their names is an implied threat of sorts), but no one actually saying it's okay to attack children for the actions of their parents. Koalas March posted:Fascists are not people. I wish people would also apply this sort of (completely correct) absolute condemnation to the wealthy as well (not for their actions, but for being wealthy in and of itself). I think it's great that people are starting to take such strong stances against stuff like bigotry and sexual assault, but that sort of perspective should also extend to people who possess great wealth (and, as a result, profit off of the labor of others and deny that wealth to others in need). The harm they cause isn't any less than the harm caused by fascists or other bigots. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Nov 28, 2017 |
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Nov 28, 2017 19:45
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Grapplejack posted:Political violence is bad, I don't know why this thread needs to be reminded of this so often. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic
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Nov 28, 2017 19:48
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fascists arent people lol
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Nov 28, 2017 19:54
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peengers posted:USPOL, where one party is ok with child rape and has literally elected a rapist to the top office while the other has scruples over shaming someone because they're literally loving up the world for everyone Oh you mean Clinton and Comet Ping Pong, amirite
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Nov 28, 2017 20:11
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Ytlaya posted:I wish people would also apply this sort of (completely correct) absolute condemnation to the wealthy as well (not for their actions, but for being wealthy in and of itself). I think it's great that people are starting to take such strong stances against stuff like bigotry and sexual assault, but that sort of perspective should also extend to people who possess great wealth (and, as a result, profit off of the labor of others and deny that wealth to others in need). The harm they cause isn't any less than the harm caused by fascists or other bigots. Wealth is not inherently evil, so long as the individual uses it to benefit humanity instead of hoarding it. The wealthy have a responsibility to use the power they were blessed with to help their fellow people, at home and abroad (such as the push to eliminate malaria). Anything less is willful neglect at best, and actively working against the people in favor of more wealth should be a capital crime.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:11
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Talmonis posted:Wealth is not inherently evil, so long as the individual uses it to benefit humanity instead of hoarding it. if they were doing that they wouldn't have it. above a certain amount, being wealthy is absolutely inherently evil.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:13
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Koalas March posted:They are not men. They are monsters. I tend to quibble with it a bit in that I see them more as people and not seeing that as the kind of relevant distinction others do. I prefer "Politics is a war carried out with other means. Whether political violence is good or bad, talking about it is a good way to get hauled off. 
Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Nov 28, 2017 |
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Nov 28, 2017 20:13
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botany posted:if they were doing that they wouldn't have it. above a certain amount, being wealthy is absolutely inherently evil. I agree, but if you ask someone from the poorest parts of the developing world, would most of us qualify for that? Being wealthy is bad but not the same as fascism.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:15
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Koalas March posted:They are not men. They are monsters. All the real monsters are men. This dehumanization bullshit is a dangerous lie people tell themselves to provide psychological comfort and distance, to shield themselves from the reality of "if things were different, I would think as they do" - and to let them adhere to their safe and comfortable worldviews, transgressing them without thinking of those transgressions as such, without updating their worldview to mirror reality. I don't care if you really believe it or if it's just cheap rhetoric, it's minimizing and underplaying the danger these people represent just to feel better about yourself and its bullshit.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:17
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Lightning Knight posted:I agree, but if you ask someone from the poorest parts of the developing world, would most of us qualify for that? you're right, i should have mentioned that i'm talking about wealth in relative rather than absolute terms.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:17
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I think trying to wield dehumanization as a tool is both wrong and ineffective. It is wrong because our human monsters are still human, even if they are twisted and broken. Our ideology needs the rigor to be able to handle the potential for evil of humanity without pretending only "the other" or "the monsters" can be evil. It is ineffective because by focusing on their monstrousness rather than their human we focus our attention on the symbolic rather than the real. Monsters need magic to fight, we all can fight our fellow humans. Nazis are felled by the same weaknesses as you or I. There is no silver bullet, there is no daylight coming to fry their skin. We have to deal with it ourselves, like the human problem that evil is.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:19
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GlyphGryph posted:I don't care if you really believe it or if it's just cheap rhetoric, it's minimizing and underplaying the danger these people represent just to feel better about yourself and its bullshit. Yes, I, Koalas March, a black Jew, have often been known to minimize and underestimate the danger of loving Nazis. I am glad my reputation precedes me.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:19
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weird how the people hemming and hawing about the dehumanization of nazis are also the ones hemming and hawing about punching nazis and doing literally anything to combat fascism.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:20
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Ytlaya posted:In this case Democrazy's comment makes even less sense, given it seems like no way was explicitly saying it's okay to blame children for the sins of their parents. There were some people arguing that they didn't think the stuff posted constituted a threat (which I'm kind of mixed about; I can understand the argument that using their names is an implied threat of sorts), but no one actually saying it's okay to attack children for the actions of their parents. Neuroliminal said that it was okay to target the (either teenage or adult, in his scenario) children because they were complicit by not speaking out in favor of net neutrality. I said that that kind of logic could be used to punish any child for the sins of their father if they didn’t speak out. I also said that they are private citizens and likely not involved at all, and that it was unfair to bring them into something which has nothing to do with them. Other people said that the signs weren’t threatening or didn’t target the children. I disagreed with this because the signs were posted outside of their home and with their names, and (especially since these are likely children or teenagers) that it’s easy to see how someone would be frightened with these signs, and a father frightened for his child and angry. It may not be the intent, but that would be the effect. And then NFS said that the whole point was to intimidate the father and later endorsed political violence. It’s a lot of different strains.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:21
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botany posted:if they were doing that they wouldn't have it. above a certain amount, being wealthy is absolutely inherently evil. I'd argue that outliers such as Buffett, Soros and Gates are doing a half-decent job of it. Certainly could and should be doing more, no question, but the funding used to battle Malaria alone has been enormously helpful to a lot of people. Add the hospitals, the research, the education funding, etc. and you have truly good things coming from the wealthy who at least try to give a poo poo. I think praise for their actions, while condemnation for their peers could be helpful over the long term.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:24
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Koalas March posted:weird how the people hemming and hawing about the dehumanization of nazis are also the ones hemming and hawing about punching nazis and doing literally anything to combat fascism. No you're missing the point about why dehumanization isn't good for you or the cause. We don't need to call Nazis inhuman to punch them. And when we call them inhuman we're playing into the very ideas the Nazis are proposing. Recognizing Nazis are broken people not otherized as Monsters doesn't mean we should stop fighting them. Ashley Montagu posted:It neither kills outright nor inflicts apparent physical harm, yet the extent of its destructive toll is already greater than that of any war, plague, famine, or natural calamity on record - and its potential damage to the quality of human life and the fabric of civilized society is beyond calculation. For that reason this sickness of the soul might well be called the 'Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse.' Its more conventional name, of course, is dehumanization.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:25
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botany posted:you're right, i should have mentioned that i'm talking about wealth in relative rather than absolute terms. "richer than me" fits the definition of relative, yes.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:28
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Koalas March posted:Yes, I, Koalas March, a black Jew, have often been known to minimize and underestimate the danger of loving Nazis. I am glad my reputation precedes me. Yeah, no, being a black Jew attempting to minimize and underestimate the danger of loving Nazis, helping them in the process, for a smidgen of psychological comfort really just makes it kinda worse. Koalas March posted:weird how the people hemming and hawing about the dehumanization of nazis are also the ones hemming and hawing about punching nazis and doing literally anything to combat fascism. Nothing I'm doing can be considered "hemming and hawing". I'm being pretty solid and firm here - this attempt to soothe your cognitive dissonance by pretending your fantasy of fascists not being people is stupid, it's wrong, it empowers the Nazis and enables them, and you should stop. Of course I didn't do any hemming and hawing about punching nazis or doing violence to nazis or combatting fascism in general either, and have in fact explicitly advocated for violence being an important tool in the toolbox we should not be willing to relinquish, so I don't who the gently caress you think I am exactly.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:30
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Talmonis posted:Wealth is not inherently evil, so long as the individual uses it to benefit humanity instead of hoarding it. The wealthy have a responsibility to use the power they were blessed with to help their fellow people, at home and abroad (such as the push to eliminate malaria). Anything less is willful neglect at best, and actively working against the people in favor of more wealth should be a capital crime. No, merely having great wealth is inherently deeply immoral. Particularly since we live in a very unfair society, it is impossible for someone to truly deserve their wealth (it's like saying you're legitimately the best runner in a race where half the competitors were injured), and choosing to retain wealth while countless people suffer due to a lack of money is extremely immoral. We absorb through cultural osmosis the idea that it's normal and okay for people to have great wealth (as long as they're nice about it), but if you actually think more deeply about it it's extremely hosed up and wrong. It's even more wrong when you consider the fact that the very wealthy nearly always possess a significant portion of their wealth in investments, meaning they actively profit off of the labor of others. edit: I want to preemptively address the "well, middle class people also have extra money they could help people with" point. This is true, but the key difference is that most middle class people still have a realistic risk of future financial stress. For example, a middle class person could still be financially ruined by medical expenses or something. The same isn't true for a wealthy person. Someone with 10 million dollars has no realistic risk of needing that kind of money in the future. All this being said, you could still argue that it's immoral for middle class people to waste money on unnecessary things wihle people starve, and I would agree, but the level of immorality is many orders of magnitude below that of a wealthy person. It's like the difference between someone who said something rude to another person and someone who murdered another person plus their entire extended family. Lightning Knight posted:I agree, but if you ask someone from the poorest parts of the developing world, would most of us qualify for that? I address this point in the edited part of my post above. And I would say it is absolutely as bad as fascism. botany posted:if they were doing that they wouldn't have it. above a certain amount, being wealthy is absolutely inherently evil. Yeah, exactly. The people who are perceived as "good wealthy people" are generally only using a portion (usually a small portion) of their wealth correctly. Everything else is just selfishly hoarded while others suffer. botany posted:the point is that a just society wouldn't have to rely on rich people funding research, and a just society would make extreme wealth pretty much impossible to attain. these people are symptoms of an unjust system. they, as individuals, might not be evil, but their accumulated wealth absolutely is. I disagree with this, though. The people themselves are evil by virtue of choosing to keep their wealth. They effectively have access to a "save or vastly improve literally thousands of lives" button that they could press without any noticeable change to their quality of life, and they choose not to press it. Such a person can only be described as a monster. Talmonis posted:I'd argue that outliers such as Buffett, Soros and Gates are doing a half-decent job of it. Certainly could and should be doing more, no question, but the funding used to battle Malaria alone has been enormously helpful to a lot of people. Add the hospitals, the research, the education funding, etc. and you have truly good things coming from the wealthy who at least try to give a poo poo. I think praise for their actions, while condemnation for their peers could be helpful over the long term. The thing is, how to use that wealth shouldn't be their choice to make. They possess that wealth unjustly. It's like praising a thief for donating a portion of what they stole. You need to shed the idea that the fact they legally own their wealth/assets means their ownership is ethically acceptable. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Nov 28, 2017 |
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Nov 28, 2017 20:32
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Nazis are not simply "broken people" they are fascists who want to kill me, my family and other already vulnerable minorities. They want to commit genocide. They want to do harm to people. They revere those who came before them and have committed such atrocities. They deserve neither humanizing nor compassion.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:33
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Talmonis posted:I'd argue that outliers such as Buffett, Soros and Gates are doing a half-decent job of it. Certainly could and should be doing more, no question, but the funding used to battle Malaria alone has been enormously helpful to a lot of people. Add the hospitals, the research, the education funding, etc. and you have truly good things coming from the wealthy who at least try to give a poo poo. I think praise for their actions, while condemnation for their peers could be helpful over the long term. the point is that a just society wouldn't have to rely on rich people funding research, and a just society would make extreme wealth pretty much impossible to attain. these people are symptoms of an unjust system. they, as individuals, might not be evil, but their accumulated wealth absolutely is.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:35
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Koalas March posted:Nazis are not simply "broken people" they are fascists who want to kill me, my family and other already vulnerable minorities. Just because they want to do horrible horrible things doesn't make them less human. Humans do horrible things. It isn't about deserving it or not, it is about accepting the realities that Nazis are horrible people just like you and I and learning from it or pretending their inhuman monsters which only makes you feel better while you end up agreeing with Nazis about the concept of dehumanization. You don't have to have compassion for someone just because you stop pretending they're subhuman and recognized they're just regular humans like we all are.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:39
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Koalas March posted:Nazis are not simply "broken people" they are fascists who want to kill me, my family and other already vulnerable minorities. I don't disagree with anything but the humanizing. But, people need to see and understand that all humans are petty, selfish apes, held back by a bare semblence of reason and cultural constructs. I think that understanding that the nature of humanity itself is why the worst of us will do such horrible things, and will hopefully help us stop it from continuing to happen over and over throughout history.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:39
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What exactly is the causal relationship between thinking that nazis are monsters and somehow hurting the cause of antifascism here? Because all I've seen so far is the claim that it exists but zero explanation for why this is the case. Also if you're actually super-rich you've by necessity gotten where you are by stealing the fruits of working people's labour and by being a lynchpin in keeping the moral monstrosity that's capitalism going, so I don't see what's super admirable about a few of them giving back a fraction of what they stole.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:41
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botany posted:the point is that a just society wouldn't have to rely on rich people funding research, and a just society would make extreme wealth pretty much impossible to attain. these people are symptoms of an unjust system. they, as individuals, might not be evil, but their accumulated wealth absolutely is. True, and a fair point. But until we get to a point in time where we can have a world that is more equitable, I think it's the responsibility of those who benefit the most to do what they can to influence positive change. The rest of us just don't have that kind of power.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:41
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I have no moral authority or anything but there was a relevant post some ex google guy wrote on the topic of violence against Nazis and how their existence breaks the peace treaty in the first place. Nazis killed an American this year, how are you all still "debating" this.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:42
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Talmonis posted:I don't disagree with anything but the humanizing. But, people need to see and understand that all humans are petty, selfish apes, held back by a bare semblence of reason and cultural constructs. I think that understanding that the nature of humanity itself is why the worst of us will do such horrible things, and will hopefully help us stop it from continuing to happen over and over throughout history. I think that telling someone they're wrong about the lens with which the view their own oppressors is pedantic, thoughtless, and frankly, cruel.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:44
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Talmonis posted:True, and a fair point. But until we get to a point in time where we can have a world that is more equitable, I think it's the responsibility of those who benefit the most to do what they can to influence positive change. The rest of us just don't have that kind of power. Literally "We must patiently wait until they get tired of being wealthy"
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Nov 28, 2017 20:46
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Koalas March posted:Fascists are not people. Stepping aside from some of the other debates going on, Ajit Pai may be a bad guy, but I haven’t really seen any proof that he’s a fascist or a Nazi, particularly since he’s a person of color and the son of immigrants.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:46
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Cerebral Bore posted:What exactly is the causal relationship between thinking that nazis are monsters and somehow hurting the cause of antifascism here? Because all I've seen so far is the claim that it exists but zero explanation for why this is the case. Well in the same way that nothing anyone posts here matters, nothing matters. But as I said before, pretending Nazis are Monsters means you're focusing on their symbolic strength as monsters and not focusing on their human weaknesses. Likewise if you believe Nazis are Monsters it makes it even more challenging to prevent people from becoming Nazis, since you're viewing it through this dehumanized lens of Human->Monster rather the more contemporary anti-radicalization methods that acknowledge the humanity of those involved and their human desires.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:47
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Talmonis posted:I don't disagree with anything but the humanizing. But, people need to see and understand that all humans are petty, selfish apes, held back by a bare semblence of reason and cultural constructs. I think that understanding that the nature of humanity itself is why the worst of us will do such horrible things, and will hopefully help us stop it from continuing to happen over and over throughout history. yes this is all a nice sentiment but the nazis were stopped with guns and bombs and nooses, not with an enlightened understanding of the conditio humana.
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Nov 28, 2017 20:47
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