USPOL: Pulitzer Feeling Increasingly Out Of Place In New York Times Office

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL: Pulitzer Feeling Increasingly Out Of Place In New York Times Office

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Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

NewForumSoftware posted:

maybe you shouldn't try to humanize people who are hell bent on eradicating minorities then?

Jesus, you have to be trolling. I refuse to believe you're this impossibly thick.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 21:50

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# ? May 23, 2024 19:31

NewForumSoftware: Oct 8, 2016; by Lowtax

Talmonis posted:

Jesus, you have to be trolling. I refuse to believe you're this impossibly thick.

this is what I thought about liberals defending nazis for the first decade I posted here too

# ? Nov 28, 2017 21:52

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

NewForumSoftware posted:

this is what I thought about liberals defending nazis for the first decade I posted here too

Nobody in this thread has done that, and you know it.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 21:55

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

Cerebral Bore posted:

How in the name of sweet gently caress does that follow? Like, you've literally been saying that what you call nazis is merely a semantic difference, so how exactly is it supposed to affect the responsibility that nazis bear for being nazis?

It doesn't. I had two posts in my head when I wrote that and it came across as "Nazis aren't monsters". They obviously are. Calling them monsters does not absolve them of anything. If you replace "monsters" with "not-people" in that post, that's more or less what I was trying to say. To me, saying "they aren't people" kind of does absolve them of their sins, but :shrug:

like I said it's splitting hairs and KM is right about oppressors and the oppressed. This all comes off as concern trolling and that's not my intent, nor was it my intent to defend Nazis in any way.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 21:58

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Talmonis posted:

Nobody in this thread has done that, and you know it.

You said they were an oppressed minority that is expierencing poltical violence that is wrong.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 21:59

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Mr Hootington posted:

You said they were an oppressed minority that is expierencing poltical violence that is wrong.

I absolutely have not.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:01

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Talmonis posted:

I absolutely have not.

Im sorry you feel more compassion for nazi monsters than you do for the people they want to genocide.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:03

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Mr Hootington posted:

Im sorry you feel more compassion for nazi monsters than you do for the people they want to genocide.

This is some next level gaslighting.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:06

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Talmonis posted:

This is some next level gaslighting.

we can see through your revisionist postung

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:08

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Talmonis posted:

Or, and try to follow me here, I give a poo poo what KM thinks, and don't want to appear to be declaring my viewpoint superior to her's. Because making good people feel like poo poo isn't something I like doing, however inadvertantly.

Yes, they're nazis. But people who let them in power get to say "I wasn't a nazi" and absolve themselves of all guilt because "Nazi = Monster". gently caress that. They're responsible because Nazi's are people that they could have dealt with. They could have tried to put a stop to the open racism amongst them. They could have not voted for a ranting piece of trash. They could have done all manner of legal, non-violent things before they came to power, and violent things afterward. They were responsible for the nazis, just as Trump supporters are responsible for his neo-nazi followers.

you�re an idiot

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:11

Johnny Five-Jaces: Jan 21, 2009

I'd like to put my self on the record and say that I think that Nazis are not very good. In fact if pushed I think you could get me to say that Nazis are bad. Sorry if this offends.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:12

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Mr Hootington posted:

we can see through your revisionist postung

By all means, feel free to quote me Mr. O'Keefe.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:13

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

After a little bit more thought I think my emphasis on calling them humans is a reaction to the dehumanization argument.
I figured :killing:

sidestepped that annoying criticism and lines up neatly with the next point others have brought up - Nazis are the start, but they aren't the only problem.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:14

NewForumSoftware: Oct 8, 2016; by Lowtax

yes we know Talmonis horseshoe theory is real

:discourse:

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:15

Chilichimp: Oct 24, 2006; TIE Adv xWampa

It wamp, and it stomp; Grimey Drawer

HootTheOwl posted:

Oh, sorry, the thread moves real fast and I missed that context.

That's just it, this thread doesn't usually move very fast :ohdear:

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:17

HootTheOwl: May 13, 2012; Hootin and shootin

Chilichimp posted:

That's just it, this thread doesn't usually move very fast

True. Back to the USPOL of old! (or is KM just a siren to all the hand-wringing?)

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:20

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Talmonis posted:

By all means, feel free to quote me Mr. O'Keefe.

So you dont deny you support nazis and the genocide of non white races?

Incredibly damnibg stuff

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:21

Ornedan: Nov 4, 2009; Cybernetic Crumb

Koalas March posted:

what is the point, goal or endgame in telling someone that their view of their oppressor is wrong?

what is the point, goal, or endgame of telling me that the people who want me dead are *~*just human beings*~*

Because declaring them non-human means you also declare violence to be the only solution. It's fine that you, personally, don't have sufficient resources or willingness to try to fix individual Nazis, but de-radicalisation is a thing society can try on radicalising or radicalised humans first before resorting to warfare. A hostile and dangerous non-human animal is just to be put down.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:25

Jethro: Jun 1, 2000; I was raised on the dairy, Bitch!

In general, I'm against dehumanizing Nazis because I think it does two things.

One, it let's our culture off the hook. To paraphrase George Carlin, Nazis don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities. When we say they are monsters instead of men, we run the risk of absolving the sins of the people and institutions (beyond the Nazi groups themselves) that enabled or failed to prevent the generation of more Nazis.

Also, when we say Nazis aren't people, I think we invite re-humanizing of them, like the execrable NYT piece we've all eviscerated this past week. "I thought Nazis were monsters, but it turns out they eat at Panera, just like me, a milquetoast liberal!"

That said, I don't think anyone in this thread is in danger of doing either of those things when they call Nazis monsters. My complaints are directed more at American culture in general and white American culture in specific. And I certainly am not advocating for pro-Nazi tolerance.

e:

Ornedan posted:

Because declaring them non-human means you also declare violence to be the only solution. It's fine that you, personally, don't have sufficient resources or willingness to try to fix individual Nazis, but de-radicalisation is a thing society can try on radicalising or radicalised humans first before resorting to warfare. A hostile and dangerous non-human animal is just to be put down.

Yeah, this too. Nazis are made, not born, and it is possible for them to be unmade, though I don't think it's common, and it's (probably) not your job.

Jethro fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Nov 28, 2017

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:27

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Ornedan posted:

Because declaring them non-human means you also declare violence to be the only solution. It's fine that you, personally, don't have sufficient resources or willingness to try to fix individual Nazis, but de-radicalisation is a thing society can try on radicalising or radicalised humans first before resorting to warfare. A hostile and dangerous non-human animal is just to be put down.

How do you feel about ISIS?

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:27

Koalas March: May 21, 2007

HootTheOwl posted:

True. Back to the USPOL of old! (or is KM just a siren to all the hand-wringing?)

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.

Ornedan posted:

A hostile and dangerous non-human animal is just to be put down.

I agree, Nazis are hostile and dangerous and need to be put down.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:28

Heck Yes! Loam!: Nov 15, 2004; a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.

NewForumSoftware posted:

yes we know Talmonis horseshoe theory is real

Horseshoe theory is really just a fully realized fishhook theory. The latest fad is full circle theory.

:thunk:

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:31

NewForumSoftware: Oct 8, 2016; by Lowtax

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Horseshoe theory is really just a fully realized fishhook theory. The latest fad is full circle theory.

attempting to equate the left and right in the name of normalizing the center is a baby brain take
for example:

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Of course he does, as long as it is violence that supports his terrible beliefs. It's not like they have been shy about this fact. The "left" treats political violence in the same way the far right does. They want it.

ahh yes the "terrible beliefs" of the left

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:32

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

Mr Hootington posted:

How do you feel about ISIS?

ISIS is a small group of conmen and charlatans who regularly take advantage of poor / starving / grieving / lost peoples and use force + a religious "mandate" to foster their own little kingdom.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:35

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Crain posted:

People in this thread are really loving bad at trying to apply "The Banality of Evil" to the real world.

Yeah, this is true, though I don't think it's worth trying to argue because people are (understandably) very sensitive towards the topic of others trying to be compassionate towards Nazis (even though the point of the "banality of evil" has nothing to do with excusing Nazis).

edit: Basically it comes back to what I said about how most conservatives would absolutely be Nazis in a society where Nazis didn't have the same negative stigma/history associated with them. That being said, it does take a special kind of lovely person to be willing to be a Nazi in a society where there's a stigma towards Nazis.

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Nov 28, 2017

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:38

Jethro: Jun 1, 2000; I was raised on the dairy, Bitch!

Mr Hootington posted:

How do you feel about ISIS?

They are a collection of people, some of whom are irredeemable fanatics, some of whom could be deradicalized under the right conditions, some of whom aren't radicalized in the first place and just joined out of desperation, some of whom were impressed into service, and some of whom just used ISIS as a convenient label to attach to their evil actions born out of toxic masculinity and/or alienation.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:39

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Koalas March posted:

I agree, Nazis are hostile and dangerous and need to be put down.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:42

Heck Yes! Loam!: Nov 15, 2004; a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.

I would like to share a good read from the past about who goes nazi. This is from 1941, and i feel it is useful to the current conversation.

https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/

quote:

Nazism has nothing to do with race and nationality. It appeals to a certain type of mind.

It is also, to an immense extent, the disease of a generation�the generation which was either young or unborn at the end of the last war. This is as true of Englishmen, Frenchmen, and Americans as of Germans. It is the disease of the so-called �lost generation.�

Sometimes I think there are direct biological factors at work�a type of education, feeding, and physical training which has produced a new kind of human being with an imbalance in his nature. He has been fed vitamins and filled with energies that are beyond the capacity of his intellect to discipline. He has been treated to forms of education which have released him from inhibitions. His body is vigorous. His mind is childish. His soul has been almost completely neglected.

Please give it a full read.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 22:46

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Grapplejack posted:

ISIS is a small group of conmen and charlatans who regularly take advantage of poor / starving / grieving / lost peoples and use force + a religious "mandate" to foster their own little kingdom.

What should be done with them?

Drone them?

Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Nov 28, 2017

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:15

Ornedan: Nov 4, 2009; Cybernetic Crumb

Mr Hootington posted:

How do you feel about ISIS?

Depends on what a particular member has done and where they are at the time. In contested territory warfare is the necessary solution. For captured leaders and fighters the equivalent of N�rnberg trials. Prison (possibly suspended) with deprogramming for other supporters.

Koalas March posted:

I agree, Nazis are hostile and dangerous and need to be put down.

So do you consider things like Life After Hate worthless because any Nazi that appears to convert is just faking it?

Ornedan fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Nov 28, 2017

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:20

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

Ornedan posted:

Because declaring them non-human means you also declare violence to be the only solution. It's fine that you, personally, don't have sufficient resources or willingness to try to fix individual Nazis, but de-radicalisation is a thing society can try on radicalising or radicalised humans first before resorting to warfare. A hostile and dangerous non-human animal is just to be put down.

Is there a historical example of a society wide de-radicalization program that went well? I'm having difficulty imagining what it would look like. If we've got sufficient access to the Nazi we can put them through programs, the Nazis shouldn't have any appreciable societal power.

Ornedan posted:

Depends on what a particular member has done and where they are at the time. In contested territory warfare is the necessary solution. For captured leaders and fighters the equivalent of N�rnberg trials. Prison (possibly suspended) with deprogramming for other supporters.

Like here, if we've already locked up the Nazis, I agree it's not necessary to murder them in custody, but how do we get the Nazis into prison without violence?

twodot fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 28, 2017

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:35

Crain: Jun 27, 2007; I had a beer once with Stephen Miller and now I like him.

I also tried to ban someone from a Discord for pointing out what an unrelenting shithead I am! I'm even dumb enough to think it worked!

Ytlaya posted:

edit: Basically it comes back to what I said about how most conservatives would absolutely be Nazis in a society where Nazis didn't have the same negative stigma/history associated with them.

Yeah, the original Nazis had to work their way up to genocide. Modern Nazis are starting from there.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:39

BadOptics: Sep 11, 2012

twodot posted:

Is there a historical example of a society wide de-radicalization program that went well? I'm having difficulty imagining what it would look like.

The de-radicalization/de-nazification of Germany from 1939-1945 by the Allies went pretty well but not far enough, imo.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:52

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

BadOptics posted:

The de-radicalization/de-nazification of Germany from 1939-1945 by the Allies went pretty well but not far enough, imo.

you mean 45 to 51, and that program was pretty much a failure.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:56

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

BadOptics posted:

The de-radicalization/de-nazification of Germany from 1939-1945 by the Allies went pretty well but not far enough, imo.

it's the silver lining of nazi ideology: if you hold that whoever's most willing to use violence is necessarily right, and you have had the absolute poo poo violenced out of you by those who are supposedly your inferiors, you're much more likely to quietly accept it when they say "sit down and shut the gently caress up" in the aftermath

peace acquired through terror of vicious, brutal, and wholly justifiable reprisal is not the -ideal-, but it occasionally beats the alternatives.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:58

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

botany posted:

you mean 45 to 51, and that program was pretty much a failure.

:thatisthejoke:

# ? Nov 28, 2017 23:59

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

Ze Pollack posted:

:thatisthejoke:

oh, i'm a moron, disregard.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 00:00

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

i don't particularly care if nazis are monsters or humans

i just enjoy it when they get punched/kicked/beaten with bats

# ? Nov 29, 2017 00:06

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

a nazi wedding is:

a) a touching moment showing that even the most monstrous of us are still human

b) a wonderful opportunity to beat nazis with bats

if you answered a, you're dumb

# ? Nov 29, 2017 00:12

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# ? May 23, 2024 19:31

disjoe: Feb 18, 2011

botany posted:

you mean 45 to 51, and that program was pretty much a failure.

This is absolutely right but there's probably something to learn from the fact that Germany is the loving City on a Hill right now

# ? Nov 29, 2017 00:18

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