TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future - The Something Awful Forums

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Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Reene posted:

I'm aware, but it neither makes me less disappointed nor the hobby a safer place for people like me.

Yeah. Being sluggishly reactive isn't good enough. Its better than totally ignoring but it's the lowest bar otherwise.

# ? Nov 27, 2017 21:05

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# ? May 8, 2024 21:00

LuiCypher: Apr 24, 2010; Today I'm... amped up!

Lightning Lord posted:

it's the lowest bar otherwise.

Pretty accurate description of TG as an industry.

# ? Nov 27, 2017 21:23

Schadenboner: Aug 15, 2011; by Shine

LuiCypher posted:

Pretty accurate description of TG as an industry.

Traditional Games: It's the lowest bar otherwise.

# ? Nov 27, 2017 21:31

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Reene posted:

This is the takeaway point of all this yes and it's absolutely wild that so many people appear to have missed this in favor of acting like it's one guy

This is also why their response is so disappointing. It's all about performative "we're very welcoming, and we'll definitely do something" with zero concrete plans or proposals about how they plan on addressing this behavior on a wide scale.

It was also tweeted out on a Saturday night of a holiday weekend, why are people expecting like a fully formed response that quickly

# ? Nov 27, 2017 22:42

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

It was also tweeted out on a Saturday night of a holiday weekend, why are people expecting like a fully formed response that quickly

Because it's an ongoing issue they've had years to address - in general AND specifically with this particular rear end in a top hat and his friends - with an established pattern of them making this kind of statement and then not actually trying to do anything about the underlying problems. If this a preliminary to them getting their poo poo together, great. But it's long overdue, and past experience suggests its not.

There's also a big difference between what's expected from a corporation deeply involved in running a community, from which it makes significant profit, and a smaller unpaid volunteer organization. Having less patience with the former than with the latter isn't unreasonable.

# ? Nov 27, 2017 22:48

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

I like the MTG team, their hearts are in the right place, but they are definitely absolutely terrible at actually handling tourney player culture.

# ? Nov 27, 2017 23:10

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Comrade Gorbash posted:

Because it's an ongoing issue they've had years to address - in general AND specifically with this particular rear end in a top hat and his friends - with an established pattern of them making this kind of statement and then not actually trying to do anything about the underlying problems. If this a preliminary to them getting their poo poo together, great. But it's long overdue, and past experience suggests its not.

There's also a big difference between what's expected from a corporation deeply involved in running a community, from which it makes significant profit, and a smaller unpaid volunteer organization. Having less patience with the former than with the latter isn't unreasonable.

and I agree with all of that, but this response of "they only sent a tweet!!!" Is a little unfair at this specific moment in this specific instance

# ? Nov 27, 2017 23:12

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

and I agree with all of that, but this response of "they only sent a tweet!!!" Is a little unfair at this specific moment in this specific instance

I literally explained why I disagree with this view in what you quoted.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 00:09

LuiCypher: Apr 24, 2010; Today I'm... amped up!

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

and I agree with all of that, but this response of "they only sent a tweet!!!" Is a little unfair at this specific moment in this specific instance

I think the overarching problem a lot of folks have in this thread is that tweets are mostly acts of performative justice - a tweet is a simple statement, not an actual action, and isn't worth the paper it's written on. Tweets are often used to say you'll do something and then not actually do it.

A big organization like Wizards, which is owned by Hasbro, should be able to take concrete actions beyond a simple tweet much more quickly since they likely have far more robust HR departments/legal counsels breathing down their necks, unlike Green Ronin or singular entities. Ideally, when they made the tweet they should have already had a concrete response in place to demonstrate the sincerity (and seriousness) of their actions.

# ? Nov 28, 2017 17:46

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

LuiCypher posted:

I think the overarching problem a lot of folks have in this thread is that tweets are mostly acts of performative justice - a tweet is a simple statement, not an actual action, and isn't worth the paper it's written on. Tweets are often used to say you'll do something and then not actually do it.

A big organization like Wizards, which is owned by Hasbro, should be able to take concrete actions beyond a simple tweet much more quickly since they likely have far more robust HR departments/legal counsels breathing down their necks, unlike Green Ronin or singular entities. Ideally, when they made the tweet they should have already had a concrete response in place to demonstrate the sincerity (and seriousness) of their actions.

HR and legal are also off on the Saturday immediately after Thanksgiving is the thing

Also they've said there's going to be stuff coming later today

# ? Nov 28, 2017 19:53

LuiCypher: Apr 24, 2010; Today I'm... amped up!

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

HR and legal are also off on the Saturday immediately after Thanksgiving is the thing

Also they've said there's going to be stuff coming later today

Fair enough! I think we all know how it is, being the holidays and all.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 00:32

canyoneer: Sep 13, 2005; I only have canyoneyes for you

Arivia posted:

What about videos where Super Mario recruits you for Hezbollah?

I haven't found that hat yet in Odyssey.

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

HR and legal are also off on the Saturday immediately after Thanksgiving is the thing

Also they've said there's going to be stuff coming later today

Here it is.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/taking-action-harassment-and-bullying-2017-11-28

quote:

We are incredibly proud of the Magic community and the tremendous good it does in people's lives. Magic is a game meant to bring people together�it's right there in the name "The Gathering." Our community is filled with stories of lifelong friendships and bonds forged through tapping lands, casting spells, and swinging in with everything for the win.

Sadly, that sense of community can be spoiled by the behavior of a few individuals. We at Wizards of the Coast are disheartened about bullying and harassment in the gaming community; unfortunately, the Magic community is not immune. No one should be subjected to threats and intimidation. No one should be made to feel unsafe or unwelcome while enjoying something they love. All people should be able to express their joy for the game without being attacked, whether that's in a local game store, online, or somewhere in between.

We diligently promote inclusivity and openness within our community. We're listening to your feedback and working to ensure everyone who plays Magic feels welcomed and accepted.

WHAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW
We are investigating reports we've received as quickly as possible. We know you'd like us to act faster and to share more information with you about this process, but we simply can't. What we can tell you is that we take violations of our Code of Conduct very seriously, and violations can result in removal from organized play, the Wizards Play Network, and all Wizards accounts.

We are reviewing and updating our policies and reporting processes for Code of Conduct violations. We recognize that it is time to carefully reconsider how we work with retailers, tournament organizers, players, and community members to deal with harassment and bullying�online and offline. We have been working on this, but we will work faster. Expect announcements and explanations over the next few months about policies that we hope are clearer and processes that are easier to access and resolve issues more quickly.

We are going to be more proactive about setting expectations for behavior at Magic events and in all Magic spaces. Some of you may have taken a survey recently about what makes you feel comfortable and included at Magic events and what doesn't. That is part of a project we've been working on that will clearly express how players, retailers, tournament organizers, and us here at Wizards expect each other to behave anywhere people are enjoying Magic. Think language and visuals at premier events, stores, and wherever you play Magic that are clear reminders of the respect we expect all players to be treated with. We're shooting to get that out there by the time you're playing Rivals of Ixalan.

These are first steps. We want to be leaders in the gaming community on this issue and will continue to figure out ways we can help tackle the problem.

WHAT WE CAN ALL DO
We all have a hand in maintaining our community, and it's going to take a concerted effort from everyone to ensure ours is a community we can continue to be proud of. Here are some things we can all be doing when we encounter abusive behaviors online or in person:

Report harassment and abuse to the channels you see it on. YouTube, Twitch, Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, Tumblr, and Facebook all have pages detailing how you can make their environments safer by reporting abusive behavior directly to their administrators.

If you experience or witness harassment or bullying within the Magic community online or at an event, report it to Wizards of the Coast. Many of these kinds of behaviors violate Wizards' Code of Conduct, and could merit suspension, account termination, or other disciplinary actions. Depending on the venue, there are several ways you should go about reporting any harassment or abusive behavior.

If you witness harassment or bullying at a Magic tournament, report that behavior to the tournament organizer. If you're uncomfortable reporting it to a tournament organizer, you can always contact Wizards.
If you witness harassment or bullying on Magic Online, or otherwise observe a violation of the Magic Online Code of Conduct, you can right-click on the player's username and select Block. Doing so will prevent that player from talking to you, but will also prompt you to leave a report within the Magic Online client for our conduct team to review. If you forget or want to leave a report after the fact, you can do so by contacting Customer Support.
And of course, you can always email investigations@wizards.com or contact Customer Support directly to report any violations of our Code of Conduct.
Sometimes, insults and abusive speech can escalate into more serious forms of harassment and bullying. If you receive threats or feel unsafe in any situation, report it to your local enforcement agency.

People who have audiences of thousands or hundreds of thousands of fans have a responsibility for the content they create. Words matter, and audiences matter. Going forward, we're going to pay special consideration to those who use their platforms in ways that make a positive impact.

The culture of harassment and bullying in the gaming world has to end. We are all in this together, and everyone here at Wizards of the Coast wants gaming to be a welcoming, inclusive, fun space for people to explore, make new friends, and, yes, gather. Look for more from us on this topic in the coming months. If you have ideas on how we can better make that a reality, let us know. You know where to find us on Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, and Instagram.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 05:01

slap me and kiss me: Apr 1, 2008; You best protect ya neck

Someone should send that to Mearls

# ? Nov 29, 2017 05:04

Fuego Fish: Dec 5, 2004; By tooth and claw!

slap me and kiss me posted:

Someone should send that to Mearls

Then he can forward it on to Zak.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 05:27

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

canyoneer posted:

I haven't found that hat yet in Odyssey.

It's a keffiyeh.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 05:59

Schadenboner: Aug 15, 2011; by Shine

Bedlamdan posted:

It's a keffiyeh.

Nothing, what's a keffiyeh with you?

# ? Nov 29, 2017 22:50

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Schadenboner posted:

Nothing, what's a keffiyeh with you?

For me? A shemagh. :colbert:

# ? Nov 29, 2017 23:30

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

this pun chain both shows us the value of diversity and the fact that no culture is safe from goddamn pun chains.

# ? Nov 29, 2017 23:37

Schadenboner: Aug 15, 2011; by Shine

sexpig by night posted:

this pun chain both shows us the value of diversity and the fact that no culture is safe from goddamn pun chains.

This is the future liberals want. :v:

Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Nov 30, 2017

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:29

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

But did the known harasser cop a DCI ban?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 14:49

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Mors Rattus posted:

But did the known harasser cop a DCI ban?

not yet as far as we know. they've already contacted him regarding the investigation, which means they're getting close.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 14:50

Angrymog: Jan 30, 2012; Really Madcats

Any goons apart from the guy who wrote Legacy at Dragonmeet today?

I was underwhelmed by the con. Trade hall less interesting - a lot of the stands seemed much smaller, bring and buy mostly boardgames, no house Atraides with their boxes of 2nd hand stuff.

Played a game of Follow in the indie game room.

Didn't wait around for the auction

# ? Dec 2, 2017 19:33

Flavivirus: Dec 14, 2011; The next stage of evolution.

Angrymog posted:

Any goons apart from the guy who wrote Legacy at Dragonmeet today?

I was underwhelmed by the con. Trade hall less interesting - a lot of the stands seemed much smaller, bring and buy mostly boardgames, no house Atraides with their boxes of 2nd hand stuff.

Played a game of Follow in the indie game room.

Didn't wait around for the auction

Yeah, it was a bit of a letdown. The trade hall felt like it could've been structured better to get people flowing through it, and seemed to be missing a few of the big hitters. I was on the stall all day though so I didn't get a chance to see how the upper hall fared.

# ? Dec 2, 2017 19:47

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

MTGHeadquarters/Unsleeved Media ate a lifetime DCI ban with no chance to appeal.

# ? Dec 8, 2017 21:13

canyoneer: Sep 13, 2005; I only have canyoneyes for you

Nuns with Guns posted:

MTGHeadquarters/Unsleeved Media ate a lifetime DCI ban with no chance to appeal.

Awesome. Can't even go to DCI events as a "reporter" now, right?

# ? Dec 8, 2017 21:56

Falstaff: Apr 27, 2008; I have a kind of alacrity in sinking.

That was the right decision. Shame it took them so long to come to it, but I'll take what I can get.

# ? Dec 8, 2017 22:07

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

Travis Woo also ate a year-long ban over the facebook group bullshit, which should be a sharp jab in the rear end one hopes.

The Canadian MTG judge association also stripped a L3 judge of his certification in response to sexual harassment complaints, and their statement about it should frankly serve as a template to others.

https://blogs.magicjudges.org/canada/2017/12/07/statement-de-certification-of-canadian-l3/

quote:

Hey everyone � so a thing happened and it�s time we address it publicly. Last weekend, Chris Lansdell was de-certified as the result of a Judge Conduct Committee (JCC) case for sexual harassment. He is not to participate as a judge in Magic events. He can attempt to re-enter the community by testing for L1 *only if* the JCC believes sufficient time has elapsed and Chris has shown appropriate positive change. As of now this does not prevent him from playing in Magic events.

Originally, to protect the victim(s) from potential backlash, gossip, or �outing�, the JCC and I made the decision not to make a public announcement, and I chose to notify a select group of people privately. The belief was that both the accused and the victim(s) needed private time � however, that changed this week when Chris posted on Facebook. Now there are many questions, rumours, and I think it�s best for the Canadian community for me to get some facts out there and plant a flag on what happened.

Those are the facts that can be shared. Here are some of my feelings, and some of what I hope we can try and learn from this:

1. Respect boundaries that are set before you. �No� does not mean �try harder.�

2. If there is a power dynamic at play (e.g. a level, role, or popularity differential) then flirting is very very likely to be inappropriate, especially while in uniform and on the floor of a tournament. What looks like �yes� may in fact be �I�m too scared to say no�.

3. If you are the victim of harassment and unwanted advances, the program takes those seriously. We want your concerns to be heard and appropriate action taken quickly and unflinchingly. If ever you feel that this important commitment is not being met in any way � I am always open to you, and always open to discussing ways we can work together to improve.

4. This is painful for everyone � and I understand you may have strong desires to reach out to Chris to provide �emotional support� during this �rough time.� Please understand that I believe the decision taken by the JCC was absolutely correct and necessary. We have (at least) one victim to keep in mind here, and I�d like to ask you to avoid any actions that might be meant as �emotional support� but could be misinterpreted as support for Chris�s behaviour. If you are unsure how to thread this particularly awkward needle then I suggest erring on the side of the victim and not lending any public support to Chris at this time.

5. I know that there are those of you who will be looking for details, but please consider that the act of unearthing those details is all but guaranteed to cause more pain and do more harm than the benefit of satisfying your curiosity.

This has been an emotional time for all. Personally I�ve been feeling at times hurt, betrayed, angry, sad, and everything in between � and I know I�m not the only one. It�s completely natural to feel those things right now. It�s ok to be confused. It�s ok to be upset. This kind of experience is extremely isolating and disorienting � reach out and be a comfort to each other. Support the victim(s) if you know them, and if you don�t then support each other. Check in with each other. Share your worries.

Be excellent to each other <3

Jon

# ? Dec 9, 2017 01:22

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

I have to say, it looks like they're finally getting their asses in gear to deal with this stuff. I hope they keep it up.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 02:04

clockworkjoe: May 31, 2000; Rolled a 1 on the random encounter table, didn't you?

Not specific to TG, but a lot of people in the TG industry (like me) are getting hosed over by a change in Patreon's pricing policy https://blog.patreon.com/updating-patreons-fee-structure/

https://twitter.com/alexandraerin/status/939003277613588487

https://twitter.com/VERWHO/status/939257271850340357

http://file770.com/?p=39418 - round up of reactions so far

Anyway, my patreon hasn't been hit too hard but it's a monthly. Per item creators, especially ones with lots of low pledge backers are getting slaughtered. This fucks over RPG people like Dyson Logos and Michael Prescott really bad. Dennis Detwiller is already talking about switching to Drip (a Patreon competitor launched by Kickstarter)

# ? Dec 9, 2017 03:07

Leraika: Jun 14, 2015; Luckily, I *did* save your old avatar. Fucked around and found out indeed.

Patreon will at least pretend to address your complaints at their leisure:

https://twitter.com/jackconte/status/939309744451440640

# ? Dec 9, 2017 03:45

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

canyoneer posted:

Awesome. Can't even go to DCI events as a "reporter" now, right?

I don't think it prevents him from getting into a DCI-sanctioned tourney in an unofficial capacity, but he could never compete in one again or get an official judge certification or anything else that would feed into a MtG nerd's ego. WotC already stopped sending him any prerelease/demo stuff, too, so who know what his youtube channel could be about now besides how he's going to sue WotC for banning him (and yes he said he's going to do that).

# ? Dec 9, 2017 05:44

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

In good magic news, the Loading Ready Run Unstable Pre-Prerelease? just finished, and it was amazing.

Someone cast Better than One to summon Mark Rosewater as his two headed giant partner, then use Spike to cast Shahrazad pulling all three of them into a subgame.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 05:48

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Nuns with Guns posted:

MTGHeadquarters/Unsleeved Media ate a lifetime DCI ban with no chance to appeal.

In the spirit of the un-set,

Bruceski fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Dec 9, 2017

# ? Dec 9, 2017 06:54

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

clockworkjoe posted:

Anyway, my patreon hasn't been hit too hard but it's a monthly. Per item creators, especially ones with lots of low pledge backers are getting slaughtered. This fucks over RPG people like Dyson Logos and Michael Prescott really bad. Dennis Detwiller is already talking about switching to Drip (a Patreon competitor launched by Kickstarter)

I was planning to start a Patreon in January so hopefully Drip becomes open to all soon (and doesn't do this) :argh:

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:58

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

Kickstarter already manages big projects pretty well so I'd expect Drip to focus more on small-scale stuff, which hopefully means it won't do what Patreon's doing.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 08:10

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

https://www.patreon.com/posts/everybody-wants-15770595

WRT the Patreon shenanigans, Evil Hat has added a couple new pledge tiers; they are cheaper versions of the $4 and $12 tiers that take the fees into account; so you can continue to just give a grand total of $4/$12 and keep the same rewards.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 12:47

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; Out here, everything hurts.

Nuns with Guns posted:

MTGHeadquarters/Unsleeved Media ate a lifetime DCI ban with no chance to appeal.

I see the nerd engine is whining because they didn't let him sell out his MTG Online collection before banning him.

Digital game cards are not an investment, idiots.

Ettin posted:

I was planning to start a Patreon in January so hopefully Drip becomes open to all soon (and doesn't do this)

It mostly looks like it's a big deal to people who have per item schemes. One of the authors I support is hosed on this, they have a ton of people doing $1-$3 per chapter, and this ads 25-30% to those pledges' costs to the patrons.

Bullshit money grab ahoy.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Dec 9, 2017

# ? Dec 9, 2017 13:47

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

The writing was on the wall for a few days that a ban was imminent, he had plenty of time to liquidate his cards.

Also I kind of love that there were fiscal consequences to being a poo poo.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 13:57

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Ettin posted:

I was planning to start a Patreon in January so hopefully Drip becomes open to all soon (and doesn't do this)

I was just thinking the same thing. Perfect time for a competitor to peel away some market share. I bet kickstarter is moving the timeline up in the wake of this.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 14:35

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# ? May 8, 2024 21:00

Desiden: Mar 13, 2016; Mindless self indulgence is SRS BIZNS

moths posted:

The writing was on the wall for a few days that a ban was imminent, he had plenty of time to liquidate his cards.

Also I kind of love that there were fiscal consequences to being a poo poo.

Though I think the more important fiscal aspect is the underlying message here about the consumer base. The more the alt-right manbabies throw tantrums, the more it seems to me that "fiscal consequences" are the primary underlying fear. Not that they don't hate women or minorities, but a lot of the hostility towards diversity in different circles seems focused on de-legitimizing the idea that companies doing so are doing it for economic reasons moreso than moral. Its "SJWs forcing their ideology" as a narrative, because the alternative would be recognizing that women and minorities represent an economic opportunity for companies. The sum of all fears for that type is that companies will do the math and conclude that lost sales from banning shitheads like this one are more than made up for by making their markets friendlier to other groups.

Which is, specifically in this case, why the symbolism of the ban is more damaging than the reality (since apparently MTGheadquarters wasn't heavily involved in sanctioned stuff anyway). Its basically a message to MRAs that their economic importance is limited, and that putting up with their poo poo isn't an economic necessary evil for the company. It strikes to the heart of all their insecurities.

Now if only Twitter could figure that out too....

(Though to be honest, Twitter's whole model of business is such a stumbling shitshow they may well need to humor the manbabies to keep the thing staggering on)

# ? Dec 9, 2017 14:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future

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