Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

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Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/3ayebp/me_28_m_with_my_wife_28_f_of_9_years_she_opened/

Me [28 M] with my wife [28 F] of 9 years, she opened up about her hidden credit card debt, again

quote:

I'm not exactly sure where to go from here. This time, the CC debt is twice as high and she can no longer make the monthly minimum payments with her own income after contributing to shared house expenses. (mortgage, water, electric, etc... Split down the middle.)

Without providing too much personal detail about my financials, this guy is experiencing nearly exactly the same thing: Other Redditors Debt

Seeing his post made me come forward and seek outside input. The only difference from my situation is the amount of debt and the fact that my wife doesn't have a business / business account. Exact same situation, though. Trusted that my wife was handling our shared accounts properly... only to find out recently this is not the case after needing to spend $300 on work on the house.

[First Instance] Roughly 1.5 years ago, my wife came forward about some CC debt that got out of hand. The strange thing about this is we had made a pledge to keep only one CC each with a relatively low maximum. Unknown to me, she had 4... and the total debt was $7,000. (She makes $30k / yr...) I was very understanding, did not use any harsh language or blow off at her. We talked about it, decided the best thing to do was to consolidate. She agreed to cut up the cards and only use her spare cash for extras.

This may be where I screwed up... I looked over our shared accounts and things appeared fine at this time. So, I trusted that all was well...

[Second Instance] This is where we are today. One month ago, she comes out to me and says she's in trouble again. This time, I sat down... asked for all CC account logins / passwords and went through these statements myself. She now has a total of $13,000 in CC debt. That's right. She did not close those other CCs and accounts. She continued doing exactly what she promised she would not do. (She still makes the same $30,000 / yr.)

Now, I'm a very observant person. Our shared accounts, when we do extras or need things, I keep a mental tally on what's going on. (Usually pretty accurate, maybe $50 - $100 off... but close enough.) Our shared accounts are structured to where there is a checking (for bills), savings, and a second savings. Two safety nets. I made sure of this by depositing extra from my own pay to ensure a minimum amount was put back per month after all expenses. Even with that, I paid off my own vehicle 4 years early by saving my own spending money each month. Lowering our overall monthly expenses. Despite this, our shared account now has no savings, nor back-up savings. (emergency fund) It's all gone.

Anyway. This is where I am asking /r/relationships a few questions. I'm a very laid back spouse. I live frugally and drive an 11 year old vehicle that I do most of the maintenance on myself. My wife has a 1 year old car. She shops and buys the latest and greatest of most things. (I understand that women tend to shop more than men, I'm not knocking her for that.) However, I also know that this should be kept in moderation.

As for expenses, most of what I see is her blowing money on charities (when asked at the cash register), her family (mother/father/sister/brother), pets, and misc lady products. (expensive hair appointments, the 3,000 bottles of chemicals in our bathroom, etc...)

She literally has nothing to show for it. She contributes nothing to our house outside of the monthly bills. All furniture, decor, lawn decor, lawn care, and even house cleaning is done by me. This is not an exaggeration. In the 5 years we have been in our house, she has not swept, or mopped the kitchen once. Nor any other room in the house. I do every thing. The only thing I ask of her is to cook... and I get complaints, even though I help with that too. Why is this significant? Because she has over 5 pets. These are pets I have to clean up after because she won't!

Since this is the second time with the CC debt, and this time, our shared account has been wrecked. I'm making demands. (I guess you can call it that, because that's what she says I'm doing.) We will not be taking steps towards consolidation or anything unless she takes actions on these initial steps. I've asked for all CCs be surrendered to me. All online shopping accounts seen on a CC statement will also be surrendered to me. (Changing logins, removing saved CCs, etc...) Debit card for her personal bank account. She will only get $100 cash per month for whatever. She can hold on to our shared account card, for gas and maybe help with grocery shopping. (I now monitor this every other day.) Last, but not least... She has to put one of the pets up for adoption. (One of the CCs has $800 in vet bills, that she can't even pay.)

This is where we are stuck. She flat out refuses to understand the pet expenses. I'm being some kind of monster and unfair, according to her. She says I did a complete 180 from how I was the first time she wrecked her credit cards and that this time I'm not being fair. What did she expect? I figured the first time was just a mistake... I'm very forgiving... maybe that's where I messed up. I don't know. But this time, she's stepping into our shared finances. How am I suppose to trust her?

I have a right to know the conditions of our accounts before things get this bad. We agreed that she would handle the monthly bills/budget from the beginning. She simply kept that from me until we hit rock bottom. Every time (in the past) we came up short on a vacation or monthly budget, she would inform me of the situation and I would pay what was needed out of my own monthly spending cash. (Maybe this is another place I screwed up... she was more willing to spend extra because she never had to cover it.) I was only trying to be a good husband and allow my wife to have a bit of luxury. I even pay 100% of her health / dental / etc... and allow her to charge monthly gas expenses for her vehicle to our shared account. I pay for my own gas/oil etc.

Excuse the poorly written wall of text. I've been trying to organize this situation in my mind for a month... can't seem to do it. There is a lot more missing from this post, but any advice would be great. This is a decent summary.

[Quick Edit] "The pet thing is directly related to the $800 in vet/pet care expenses sitting on one of her cards. This pet specifically is very high maintenance. (Doesn't shed, requires professional grooming, big animal, eats a lot, etc...) Secondly, she does not have time to spend with it. Given the number of pets we have... this one just sits in a crate roughly 20 hours a day. It's a destructive animal, too. So much repair and money has gone into fixing things it's destroyed. And yes... I have taken control of all our finances.

Edit: But honestly... am I being that big of a monster here? I understand you commit to pets... but we can't continue to shoulder such high expenses for PETS. The compromise is only ONE, the largest expense of them all... going up for adoption. This will benefit the pet and help with our own expenses."

tl;dr: Wife hits $7k secretly in CC debt. Comes out. We consolidate. She promises to cut up the CCs. One year later, she comes out again this time with $13,000 in CC debt and has drained our shared accounts dry. Many words.... I'm being accused of being a monster for asking that one of the 5+ pets go up for adoption.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:17

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# ? May 21, 2024 05:48

Drunk Tomato: Apr 23, 2010; If God wanted us sober,
He'd knock the glass over.

Pretty cool to see that guy treating his wife like a waylaid child instead of his equal partner.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:25

metallicaeg: Nov 28, 2005; Evil Red Wings Owner Wario Lemieux Steals Stanley Cup

Haifisch posted:

https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/3ayebp/me_28_m_with_my_wife_28_f_of_9_years_she_opened/

Me [28 M] with my wife [28 F] of 9 years, she opened up about her hidden credit card debt, again

That's sad. Hard to tell if she's being intentionally manipulative to take advantage of the guy's demeanor and repeated financial bailouts he's given, but either way he's been taken for a ride. Good to see he's putting a foot down finally. Also, I'd bet my house that they'll be divorced before they're 35.

Drunk Tomato posted:

Pretty cool to see that guy treating his wife like a waylaid child instead of his equal partner.

I'd say she has to start acting like an equal partner in order to be treated like one.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:27

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

I think it's a 'many sides' kind of issue. Of undiagnosed and untreated mental illness. On both sides.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:29

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Yeah I'm noticing how he never mentions his own income, or whether a 50/50 split of bills is even fair.

Their financial management stuff also seems weird -- apparently she had sole control of their finances for two years, and he didn't even look at them during that time, but at the same time he paid off a truck?

I also love how angry he is at her donating $1 to charity at the checkout.

Krispy Wafer posted:

I think it's a 'many sides' kind of issue. Of undiagnosed and untreated mental illness. On both sides.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:39

Drunk Tomato: Apr 23, 2010; If God wanted us sober,
He'd knock the glass over.

metallicaeg posted:

That's sad. Hard to tell if she's being intentionally manipulative to take advantage of the guy's demeanor and repeated financial bailouts he's given, but either way he's been taken for a ride. Good to see he's putting a foot down finally. Also, I'd bet my house that they'll be divorced before they're 35.
I'd say she has to start acting like an equal partner in order to be treated like one.

Sorry but his whole "I'm a very forgiving guy" shtick reeks of "Nice Guy". The fact that they keep their finances separate, his insistence on controlling his wife's finances to the point of giving her only $100 of allowance (of her own money) a month, and the implication that he came up with the plan all by himself makes it sounds like she didn't have a say in the matter. Sure sounds like parental discipline to me, not the kind of open communication that should be happening in a healthy marriage. Especially since, according to him, she disagrees with the plan.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:39

kw0134: Apr 19, 2003; I buy feet pics🍆

What kind of animal can be kept in a crate for 20 hours and doesn't go psychotic :psyduck:

or maybe it is and its destructive behavior is because you're neglecting it. Interesting that he never mentions what it is, whether it's a dog or something more exotic.

At this point she's just abusing the poor thing.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:41

Suspicious Lump: Mar 11, 2004

God that's heart breaking

In the comments OP said:

quote:

That's actually one of the ways I feel about this. It sickens me, too. Every time we go over this... I see my wife as a child. She looks at me like I am one of her parents.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:50

Drunk Tomato: Apr 23, 2010; If God wanted us sober,
He'd knock the glass over.

I need to chill with my feminist rage and mention I'm not trying to defend the wife, she seems like an idiot who also may be taking advantage of the guy. But the whole thing is very strange. Mental illness indeed

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:55

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

Man, I didn't catch the part where it only took her one year to double her previous debt.

My MiL does this kind of poo poo. Gets in over her head and then tries to hide it from her husband. She's never going to stop, she'll just get better at hiding stuff. At this point it sounds like her debt is solely in her name. May be time to give her a bottle of fire water, push her out on an ice floe, and run the other way.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 00:59

canyoneer: Sep 13, 2005; I only have canyoneyes for you

My wife worked with someone who used to spend most of the workday shopping online, and would have all her packages delivered to the office. So underneath her desk looks like an apartment office mailroom with a dozen boxes from Amazon, Gap, Victoria's Secret, etc.

She'd have them delivered to the office so she could gradually sneak them into the house without her husband noticing that she'd been spending a lot of money. Boss finally told her to cut it out and to stop getting things shipped to the office.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 01:07

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

Luckily the divorce should be easy if their finances are already separate.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 01:28

Zo: Feb 22, 2005; LIKE A FOX

yea there's bwm, and then there's being a sneaky lying bitch hiding your debt

divorce is the only answer there. he's lucky they split their finances.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 01:39

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

Drunk Tomato posted:

a waylaid child

Like, by bandits?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 02:01

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

Ashcans posted:

Are there doctor equivalents of people that spend $150,000 to get a poo poo law degree and end up doing doc review for $35,000 a year?

There aren�t very many�the doctors� professional associations have been very careful about controlling the supply of doctors by making medical school admissions so tough and by lobbying Congress to pass laws capping the number of residencies. It�s also not that hard to graduate from medical school if you have managed to get into one�dropout rates are very low.

As a result, doctors enjoy incredible pay and job security almost purely by virtue of being accepted into medical school. Getting a medical degree from a US medical school is a very low-risk investment with pretty great returns.

silence_kit fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Nov 30, 2017

# ? Nov 30, 2017 02:38

BEHOLD: MY CAPE: Jan 11, 2004

silence_kit posted:

There aren�t very many�the doctors� professional associations have been very careful about controlling the supply of doctors by making medical school admissions so tough and by lobbying Congress to pass laws capping the number of residencies. It�s also not that hard to graduate from medical school if you have managed to get into one�dropout rates are very low.

As a result, doctors enjoy incredible pay and job security almost purely by virtue of being accepted into medical school. Getting a medical degree from a US medical school is a very low-risk investment with pretty great returns.

Virtually nothing that you have stated in this post is true except for the fact that doctors in the United States enjoy high salaries and good job security. I will fact correct point by point here:
1. Professional medical societies have nothing to do with the stringency of medical admissions, the selective admissions process is a product of an extremely large number of interested applicants and a total medical school enrollment which is similar to the number of residencies available for graduates. Not surprisingly, there are many thousands of graduating college students interested in a prestigious professional career with high earnings at the end of the training tunnel.
2. There are no laws that literally restrict the number of residency positions in United States. The laws that exist restrict the government funding via Medicare dollars to training hospitals for the support of residents. While it is without any question administratively expensive to train residents and residents earn a salary, the value of resident labor to the institutions that train them is extremely high. In fact despite a virtual funding freeze for the last 20 years, residency positions have nonetheless increased steadily in number over time to the tune of approximately 20%, closely in keeping with population changes and the availability of qualified medical school graduates to fill them. Again, the limiting factors of medical school graduates and residency position availability are closely related.
3. Prominent physician organizations openly oppose the residency funding caps, including the American Medical Association, the American Association of Family Physicians, and the American Council on Graduate Medical Education.
4. The residency funding caps were imposed by budget hawks in an era where there was concern over physician surplus. In the intervening years, it has become clear that we are headed in the wrong direction, with a physician shortage and a physician maldistribution. However, budget hawks ask a very fair question, which is why should public money subsidize the training and education of highly compensated physicians? Clearly the model can succeed sans public subsidy as evidenced by dental residency programs that charge large tuitions after dental schooling, and no doubt paying residents the salaries they currently receive is a tremendous bargain overall even without something like $100,000 a year in Medicare gravy behind the value of their labor.
5. I'm not sure I would describe medical school as "not that hard "once you have matriculated. Yes it is true that dropout rates are exceptionally low, but again it is also true that the admissions process is extremely competitive and selective, tuition is extremely expensive and there is no intermediate value to having part of a medical school degree, and schools are heavily invested in their limited seats.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 04:44

Guest2553: Aug 3, 2012

Buttcoin jumped to 11.5k today then dropped 20% in a few hours. Margin call on crypto says what? :lol:

# ? Nov 30, 2017 04:59

Mezzanon: Sep 16, 2003; Pillbug

Guest2553 posted:

Buttcoin jumped to 11.5k today then dropped 20% in a few hours. Margin call on crypto says what?

Crosspost that to the schadenfreude thread please

# ? Nov 30, 2017 05:37

Zo: Feb 22, 2005; LIKE A FOX

Guest2553 posted:

Buttcoin jumped to 11.5k today then dropped 20% in a few hours. Margin call on crypto says what?

this is great. i love everything about this.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 05:40

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

especially toronto real estate dealer lol

# ? Nov 30, 2017 05:44

Drunk Tomato: Apr 23, 2010; If God wanted us sober,
He'd knock the glass over.

Guest2553 posted:

Buttcoin jumped to 11.5k today then dropped 20% in a few hours. Margin call on crypto says what?

Can someone explain for me, a dummy? I know what a margin call is, but what exactly happened here?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 05:59

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Dude margin traded on bitcoin, an extremely volatile commodity that is known for exhibiting bubble behaviours, and recently hit a record peak.

Dude bought on margin at the peak. poo poo crashed 20% in a few hours and this being bitcoin all the exchanges went offline*.

Also he�s in Toronto real estate, which might also be cresting a bubble right now.

*because someone unplugged the router.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 06:04

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

Teeter posted:

Prettymuch the entirety of Caribbean med students. Med schools in the Caribbean are for-profit; they're insanely expensive and people only attend because the admission requirements are much lower and they couldn't get accepted to US schools. Very few complete their degree, and of those that do there aren't many that make it to a residency.

I'm not sure what line of work they end up in but there's probably an endless trove of BWM stories surrounding Caribbean MD students and their struggles to pay off 6-figure loans without a matching salary.

Do US student loan lenders finance educations in foreign countries with the risk of a student emigrating and just blowing them off? Or if it's the overseas schools lending these med students the money, what's stopping them from just going home and telling them to gently caress off?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 06:07

Devian666: Aug 20, 2008; Take some advice Chris.; Fun Shoe

Guest2553 posted:

Buttcoin jumped to 11.5k today then dropped 20% in a few hours. Margin call on crypto says what?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 06:30

Zo: Feb 22, 2005; LIKE A FOX

Drunk Tomato posted:

Can someone explain for me, a dummy? I know what a margin call is, but what exactly happened here?

if you have $100 and buy a butt that costs $100 normally, it doesn't matter if the price on butts go to $0, you still have your worthless butt

if you have $100 and buy 100 butts that each cost $100 on margin, if the cost of butts go down to just $99, you have already lost all your actual money ($100), and the trading platform will automatically sell all your 100 butts at $99 each to prevent you from losing money that you don't have.

... that's the simple version anyway. i don't dabble in butts

edit: oh you know what a margin call is. well his butts got margin called after dropping!!

# ? Nov 30, 2017 06:36

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Drunk Tomato posted:

Can someone explain for me, a dummy? I know what a margin call is, but what exactly happened here?

He bought bitcoin on margin, meaning he borrowed money to buy bitcoin. This amplifies your gains, and also your losses, so it increases volatility and in this case the underlying investment is itself volatile so it's even more risky than normal.

For example say you leverage 2-to-1, so you contribute $1000 of your own money and you borrow $1000 to buy $2000 of bitcoin in total. If the price increases 50%, you'll have $3000, you can sell off $1000 to repay the loan and keep $2000. So you've doubled your money on a 50% price increase. On the other hand, if bitcoin's price falls in half you lose it all, because your bitcoin will only be worth $1000 which you would have to sell to repay the loan. If you leverage 4-to-1 (buy $4000 of bitcoin with $1000 of your money and $3000 of borrowed money) you can double your money on a 25% price increase but you lose it all on a 25% price decline, and if the price falls by more than that then you'll owe money to your broker that you (probably) can't pay (if you could pay it, you wouldn't be needing to buy on margin would you) so your broker loses money.

To keep that from happening, brokers require a minimum amount of assets in your account. If the price of bitcoin falls enough to push your assets below the minimum your broker requires, he'll make a margin call and you either have to deposit more funds to show you can still cover the loan or the broker will automatically liquidate your position and repay himself the loan.

This makes trading on margin even riskier than it first appears, because even a temporary dip in price can trigger a margin call and force you to sell all your holdings at a horrible price to repay the loan. Even if the price immediately recovers afterward it's too late, you've lost all your money already. That's what happened to this guy.

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Nov 30, 2017

# ? Nov 30, 2017 06:44

EAT FASTER!!!!!!: Sep 21, 2002; Legendary.

What's the grace period on a margin call, again?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 06:51

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:

What's the grace period on a margin call, again?

According to federal law, your broker has to take action on a margin call within 24 hours. But that's the maximum time they're allowed to wait by law. Individual brokers usually put in their agreements that they have the right to liquidate your positions without even notifying you, for example:

Scottrade posted:

What It Means: Per NYSE Rule 431 and FINRA Rule 4210, Scottrade will be required to liquidate positions if equity requirements are not met. Any accounts dropping below the minimum equity level require immediate action, meaning Scottrade could be required to liquidate some or all of the assets you hold with us in less than 24 hours to meet the call. Any positions liquidated will be at the discretion of Scottrade. Generally, drops in equity percentage are the result of market depreciation of held assets or opening transactions made in the account.
...
Please be aware that per the margin agreement, Scottrade reserves the right to institute immediate discretionary liquidation without prior notice and without giving you the opportunity to deposit additional equity in order to satisfy your equity requirements. You will be responsible for any resulting debit balance left in your account.

Realistically it will just depend on how safe the broker feels giving you time to deposit money. With a security as insanely volatile as bitcoin in which morons dump their entire life savings, I would expect brokers would just immediately liquidate rather than risk further price drops while they notify your dumb overleveraged rear end to deposit money that you almost definitely don't have.

Maybe institutional investors get a better deal idk, but if you remember back to the financial crisis of 2009 it was margin calls that did Lehman brothers in and would have destroyed AIG and a bunch of other banks if we hadn't bailed those assholes out.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 06:59

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:

What's the grace period on a margin call, again?

I got it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4SRsGn14PI

# ? Nov 30, 2017 07:06

Pompous Rhombus: Mar 11, 2007

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Do US student loan lenders finance educations in foreign countries with the risk of a student emigrating and just blowing them off? Or if it's the overseas schools lending these med students the money, what's stopping them from just going home and telling them to gently caress off?

There's a list of approved overseas institutions for federal student loans, it's an XLS file on the Department of Education's website. IIRC the majority of private US lenders won't touch them if they're not on that list (and maybe even if they are, few seemed set up even for queries about loans for outgoing international students) but my search wasn't really exhaustive as I wasn't really leaning that way anyways. AFAIK lenders in foreign countries are very reluctant to issue loans or credit for anything without you being a permanent resident or at least having a substantive work visa for precisely the reason you mention.

In the end I got a partial scholarship directly from my institution (not on the list) and paid the rest out of pocket, rather than go to a full-price one and try to get a loan. Between tuition, living expenses while studying, and having to also support my partner for six months until she found a job it nearly wiped out my entire life savings and made things stressful having much less of a safety net, but now that I've graduated the earnings difference and improved quality of life are well worth it.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 08:59

Blinkman987: Jul 10, 2008; Gender roles guilt me into being fat.

I went to a cheap state school, so I don't understand donating to an alma mater.

Do schools keep track of that or something? Is there some value beyond what the person emotionally receives by donating? If it's +EV, then ok. Otherwise, how loving stupid do you have to be to donate to an elite institution that already has billions of dollars in financial instruments spitting free money at them?

# ? Nov 30, 2017 10:40

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

Most schools don�t have billion-dollar endowments, I suspect.

E: here�s a list: http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2016-Endowment-Market-Values.pdf Of 800 or so, 93 are > $1B.

Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Nov 30, 2017

# ? Nov 30, 2017 12:11

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:

1. Professional medical societies have nothing to do with the stringency of medical admissions, the selective admissions process is a product of an extremely large number of interested applicants and a total medical school enrollment which is similar to the number of residencies available for graduates. Not surprisingly, there are many thousands of graduating college students interested in a prestigious professional career with high earnings at the end of the training tunnel.

They of course are involved in dictating how medical schools are run, how many schools there are, an how people get trained to work in their profession. Isn't this one of the major purposes of a professional organization?

BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:

3. Prominent physician organizations openly oppose the residency funding caps, including the American Medical Association, the American Association of Family Physicians, and the American Council on Graduate Medical Education.

Oh I didn't know that. I guess it would be pretty irresponsible and too nakedly self-serving of them not to oppose it now, with the primary care shortage and with their simultaneous blocking of bills in many states which would allow for the expansion of the roles of physician assistants and nurse practitioners.

BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:

4. The residency funding caps were imposed by budget hawks in an era where there was concern over physician surplus.

Yeah, this is my point--doctors' professional organizations pushed for the law to restrict the supply of doctors. I bring this topic up to answer Ashcan's question and emphasize since the supply of doctors is carefully controlled, getting a medical degree is not in any way at all like getting a law degree. People who graduate last in their class in the lowest ranked medical schools in the US still get extremely well-paying jobs and have incredible job security. It is not really that much of a risk to go into debt for medical school, and it is inarguably GWM.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 12:55

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

Blinkman987 posted:

I went to a cheap state school, so I don't understand donating to an alma mater.

Do schools keep track of that or something? Is there some value beyond what the person emotionally receives by donating? If it's +EV, then ok. Otherwise, how loving stupid do you have to be to donate to an elite institution that already has billions of dollars in financial instruments spitting free money at them?

Not for cheap state schools, no; they don't make a whole lot off donations. I think that's part of the reason why colleges have been pushing for money-losing football teams, because while the teams lose money they becomes a focal point for endowment donations. Some schools may tie ticket lotteries to contributing alum.

As for people who continue to donate to schools that already have huge endowments, the more money you give the bigger the building they name after you. Like Vanderbilt just took the name off Confederate Memorial Hal built in 1933 with money from the Daughters of the Confederacy. But to do that, they had to pay back the DoC's $50k donation, which with inflation worked out to 1.2 million dollars. Which is probably more money than the DoC has seen in a long time.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 13:50

BEHOLD: MY CAPE: Jan 11, 2004

silence_kit posted:

They of course are involved in dictating how medical schools are run, how many schools there are, an how people get trained to work in their profession. Isn't this one of the major purposes of a professional organization?

Oh I didn't know that. I guess it would be pretty irresponsible and too nakedly self-serving of them not to oppose it now, with the primary care shortage and with their simultaneous blocking of bills in many states which would allow for the expansion of the roles of physician assistants and nurse practitioners.

Yeah, this is my point--doctors' professional organizations pushed for the law to restrict the supply of doctors. I bring this topic up to answer Ashcan's question and emphasize since the supply of doctors is carefully controlled, getting a medical degree is not in any way at all like getting a law degree. People who graduate last in their class in the lowest ranked medical schools in the US still get extremely well-paying jobs and have incredible job security. It is not really that much of a risk to go into debt for medical school, and it is inarguably GWM.

I think it was primarily done to restrict the supply of public funding to support the training of high earning professionals. Again it is a completely fair question, why should public funds in general, excepting certain circumstances where it is a public good such as the support of underserved hospitals etc., support medical residencies?Engineers and lawyers as comparison examples do not receive billions of dollars per year in public money to support their professional training. Again as I have noted, the budget caps do not in any way prevent hospitals from opening new residency programs other than strictly financial considerations, and despite the budget caps, thousands of new residency positions have been established since the caps were initiated. Also again, the reason that this continues to occur despite a lack of funding for many newly established programs is that the value of in-kind labor received by the hospitals in exchange for training residents is very high and while the accounting cost of operating a residency program is easy to show, can easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace the labor of senior residents with attending physicians. For example in my hospital, napkin estimate is that it would cost something like $2 million a year at fair market rates to replace the labor of residents on night and weekend call with four or more full-time faculty positions.

Overall totally agreed though that going to medical school is a great financial proposition for almost anyone who is capable of doing it. The personal cost is high and should not be underestimated, but the return on investment is unarguably very high for almost all medical school graduates.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 14:11

Bird in a Blender: Nov 17, 2005; It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.

College sports are normally BWM for the college. You can see a list of revenues/expenses for essentially all Division 1 colleges here:
http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

It makes money for roughly the top 25 of earning schools, but almost all other schools spend more than they take in. There's a little bit of funny money in all of this because some expenses are just for things going right back to the university, but there's also sports revenue that comes from things like student fees, so it's back and forth. Most sports revenue though is a combo of TV, merchandising, and ticket sales. The only sports that really make money are football and men's basketball. Those two sports generally support all of the other sports like volleyball, gymnastics, wrestling, etc. Those always lose money.

Sports though, are treated like marketing for the university, and it's why some schools make a push to go from Division II up to Div. I because it means more exposure. There's some articles out there that show when smaller schools do well in March Madness, their enrollment goes way up. As mentioned, it's also a good way to get donors to give money to the university.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 14:27

Elephanthead: Sep 11, 2008; Toilet Rascal

A lot of private schools are not listed. The amount of scholarships that Butler had to offer to fill enrollment dropped significantly after they hit the final four twice. The marketing part is not insignificant and students expect some sort of successful sport program they can attend and yell at as part of the experience.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 14:52

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

Bird in a Blender posted:

College sports are normally BWM for the college. You can see a list of revenues/expenses for essentially all Division 1 colleges here:
http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

It makes money for roughly the top 25 of earning schools, but almost all other schools spend more than they take in. There's a little bit of funny money in all of this because some expenses are just for things going right back to the university, but there's also sports revenue that comes from things like student fees, so it's back and forth. Most sports revenue though is a combo of TV, merchandising, and ticket sales. The only sports that really make money are football and men's basketball. Those two sports generally support all of the other sports like volleyball, gymnastics, wrestling, etc. Those always lose money.

Sports though, are treated like marketing for the university, and it's why some schools make a push to go from Division II up to Div. I because it means more exposure. There's some articles out there that show when smaller schools do well in March Madness, their enrollment goes way up. As mentioned, it's also a good way to get donors to give money to the university.

If you have a bad team then you can also play bigger more popular schools and pay a huge chunk of your program's costs by getting your rear end stomped. Like my alma mater got horribly beaten by Penn State this year and probably made back 50% of their operating costs. You have to be careful to not win the games though (usually not a problem).

Honestly those numbers in that link don't look that bad. It looks like most schools don't lose much money and the money they do lose may be offset through fundraising that doesn't show on the athletic department's ledgers.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 14:56

BEHOLD: MY CAPE: Jan 11, 2004

It continues to boggle my mind every single year why major division collegiate athletic booster associations are allowed to operate as nonprofit organizations while selling a commercial entertainment product to the public, receiving commercial revenue from TV contracts and advertising, and paying coaches and administrators and millions in salaries and benefits. If only the rest of the world worked like this, where you could donate some fraction of your organizational revenues to something unprofitable like women's sports and a couple million dollars to a university general fund or scholarship fund and be considered a nonprofit.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 15:03

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# ? May 21, 2024 05:48

Nail Rat: Dec 29, 2000; You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!

Well Susan G Komen does just that.

# ? Nov 30, 2017 15:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

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