|
Darth Walrus posted:I don’t, because she’s still boosting a white-supremacist fundraiser. I mean, talking to Nazis is one thing, but is it honestly that hard to do it without hawking tickets for their events? So you don't accept her explanation to why she doesn't consider this group white supremacists?
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 21:51 |
|
|
fallenturtle posted:So you don't accept her explanation to why she doesn't consider this group white supremacists? I'm going to borrow part of another post in a different thread where this is being discussed because I think it cuts to the heart of the issue: lornekates posted:Her points about their members are "Sure, there was one guy who posted holocaust denial poo poo, but he was banned for being TOO fashy" and also "this group saw what happened at Charlottville and said 'we need to rethink'". I think my read on that is way different than her read. She's giving them the benefit of the doubt.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:30
|
|
|
yeah, she's taking the optimistic approach of taking those actions as the group trying to clean up their act as one of the pessimists, i agree it's more likely they're just trying to not be as blatant so they can skate by with more. that said: i find it hard to fault contra for wanting to be optimistic about other human beings not being terrible. that's a lesson only experience really seems to grind in, imo
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:36
|
|
|
Harrow posted:This is the weird thing to me. I think perhaps her issue is that when it comes to talking with the right she doesn't give that many fucks and so its easier, but with the left she has to walk on eggshells, otherwise *points at Twitter*
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:47
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:So you don't accept her explanation to why she doesn't consider this group white supremacists? That was the weakest part of her argument by far. Just because they banned a poster (or 2 posters, as there were two denying the holocaust) a year ago doesn’t mean that there aren’t more of them, just that they’re not vocal or don’t care. Just because some of them watch and like Contra or are ok with trans people, they’ve also created a group where members do whatever they want and the group bears no responsibility. The same Facebook page had people organizing harassment of the college feminist group, and they gave the same empty apology. If they had really turned the corner on being shits they wouldn’t call themselves the “free speech” club, as that’s an empty signifier for anything but 4chan-style abuse and dogwhistle white supremacy. I get that Contrapoints feel vulnerable and attacked and I very much sympathize, but she’s underselling that element.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:47
|
|
|
business hammocks posted:Is shoe on head trying for some kind of seduction scene here? “The left goes after me too, Contrapoints. They’re so unreasonable, aren’t they? But just think about how reasonable I am and how the pepes always say they love me and that they’ll think hard about whether or not trans people should be killed.” They're Lacy Greening her... the process will be complete once Nat starts dating the Golden One. bessantj posted:Was it her and AS that were very pally pally with Lindsay et al at that vidme con? I don't know about Lindsay, but I think Shoe might actually be friends with Natalie. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Nov 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:48
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:I think perhaps her issue is that when it comes to talking with the right she doesn't give that many fucks and so its easier, but with the left she has to walk on eggshells, otherwise *points at Twitter* Lol she went out of her way to straw man leftist Twitter complaints in her last video. She's not walking on eggshells about anything.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:53
|
|
|
if someone's a conservative they're a white supremacist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:if someone's a conservative they're a white supremacist. Well, you have seen who’s running the American conservative party at the moment, right? Or, for that matter, the British conservative party.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:59
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:They're Lacy Greening her... the process will be complete once Nat starts dating the Golden One. I may not be as optimistic as she is, but Contrapoints will turn Golden One. But yes, that appeal is just like how the chuds tried to get Laci Green, putting focus on the “unreasonable” left while talking up their own politeness and willingness to listen to any position.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 18:01
|
|
|
Magnusth posted:These are two groups in opposition to each other. That's why I listed them separately.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Well, you have seen who’s running the American conservative party at the moment, right? i meant it sincerely. all conservatives are white supremacists.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 18:23
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:i meant it sincerely. all conservatives are white supremacists. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 18:38
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Well, you have seen who’s running the American conservative party at the moment, right? I don't think it was meant ironically. It's correct. White supremacy is enshrined in the status quo and thus any brand of conservative is inherently in favour of it. Also I don't think contra has at all engaged with the economic argument of why what she is doing is wrong. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Nov 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
Contra touched on it; she said most of the cost of the tickets was going to the guests in the form of flights, hotel rooms, etc. It's pretty far from a death blow against the economic critique of what she's doing, though. I think she's realized that what she's doing is ultimately counterproductive on a number of levels, since she's said she isn't going to be doing any more events like this, but she feels an obligation to go through with this one since she committed to doing it. I can sympathize with that mentality (I hate going back on my word myself), even if I think it's wrong.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:46
|
|
|
I support Contrapoint and will defend her from any trolls wishing ill-will on her. Probably could do with a break from the internet imo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
Falstaff posted:Contra touched on it; she said most of the cost of the tickets was going to the guests in the form of flights, hotel rooms, etc. It's pretty far from a death blow against the economic critique of what she's doing, though. Yeah but didn't somebody do some basic arithmetic and come out with that if the event attains a size suitable to its venue it's going to raise far more than could reasonably be spent on getting people there?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:52
|
|
|
Possibly? I didn't see that, but it's not hard to fathom. I'm still inclined to forgive her this mistake since, while the fact she's still going through with it sucks, at least she's resolved to not repeating the mistake. Not that my forgiveness (or lack thereof) is in any way important.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:04
|
|
|
Eh, just reaffirms really my existing belief that she is liberal at heart and doesn't want to be anything else. Unconcerned with economics, inclined to trust that the right is full of reasonable people while the left is not. Believes in "playing fair" and similar nonesense. Putting a lot of stock in style but disinclined to credit substance. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Nov 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:08
|
|
|
I feel like Contrapoints is too nice to appropriately deal with the far-right. It's one thing to create videos that are capable of persuading people on the right, but it's another thing entirely to directly engage with them in a positive way. I think this stems from the fact that she's (understandably) in an emotional place right now where she just doesn't have the energy or endurance necessary to act openly hostile towards anyone, even if it's warranted. She just generally gives me the impression of someone who doesn't have what it takes to fight with or directly insult political enemies. It's basically a much less severe version of Lacy Greene's issue, where the person in question feels a need to be a people-pleaser and not cause any sort of interpersonal conflict (it's less severe mostly because she's still entirely capable of boldly expressing her opinions in her videos; she only seems to fold when it comes to directly interacting with people). I feel like the best way for her to deal with this would be to just completely disengage with right-wingers (which obviously includes folks like shoeonhead, etc). I understand if she isn't up to being hostile towards them or having any sort of conflict, but if that's the case she should just not interact with them at all, instead of making these naive attempts at dialogue. I think that her explanation posted earlier is essentially just a post-hoc rationalization, and that the real reason she's doing this stuff is that it's just plain easier to be nice to everyone, even if doing so might be harmful.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:13
|
|
|
fallenturtle posted:I don't know about Lindsay, but I think Shoe might actually be friends with Natalie. Just so I know is Natalie Contra's name?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:16
|
|
|
So I gather yes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:18
|
|
|
You have to remember that she used to be an mra chud, and then she undertook a personal journey that lead her to leftist ideas and ideals, so she's naturally inclined to assume that other people are going to be similarly susceptible to the sorts of things that got her to re-evaluate her personal ideologies. I'm willing to accept her as an ally, if a flawed one, and I wish her all the best even if I think she's making a mistake. (I also hope I'm wrong and she does change a few minds in this event so there's at least a silver lining, but I'm not going to hold my breath.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:So I gather yes. Thanks, I've never seen her called that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:22
|
|
|
Falstaff posted:You have to remember that she used to be an mra chud, and then she undertook a personal journey that lead her to leftist ideas and ideals, so she's naturally inclined to assume that other people are going to be similarly susceptible to the sorts of things that got her to re-evaluate her personal ideologies. That's why I'm not inclined to judge her too harshly, for years I was a real piece of poo poo re: trans people as a way of coping with my dysphoria.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
Everyone has a reason for the way they are and what they think. Doesn't mean I'm going to accept them for it. She is what she is at the end of the day and personally I don't think she's going to progress much further beyond what she finds ideologically comfortable. And she's allowed to do that, but other people are going to position themselves accordingly. A lot of really lovely people are that way because they never had a chance to be anything better. Doesn't mean I don't stand opposed to their ideas either. As the oppressed I want better for them whether they agree with it or not but we'll find no common ground ideologically. Ideological hostility is not automatically a value judgement on a person though it can inform one. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Nov 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:27
|
|
|
Falstaff posted:You have to remember that she used to be an mra chud, Are you sure you've got your YouTube superstars lined up right, there? Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means, but Shaun is the one who I remember saying the main reason why he didn't go all right alt-right is, to paraphrase, "there but for the grace of God go I". I remember Contra saying she'd have been in feminist cringe compilations if you'd have pointed a camera in her direction during Iraq war protests. Can't source that claim, since I don't remember which video that was in, but there you go.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:29
|
|
|
Pretty sure? Like, before you asked me that I was about 100%. Now I'm about 85-90%. It was in some of her older, pre-transition videos about how she bought into mra ideas until she got to university and was basically forced to engage with feminism on an academic level. I might be thinking of someone else, but I don't follow a lot of youtube pundits so I doubt it. I don't think I know anything about shaun outside his dry British wit and ridiculous levels of masochism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
I vaguely remember that from a contra video as well, something about her ideological position shifting radically on exposure to academia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 21:11
|
|
|
Falstaff posted:Contra touched on it; she said most of the cost of the tickets was going to the guests in the form of flights, hotel rooms, etc. It's pretty far from a death blow against the economic critique of what she's doing, though. I know I'm being kind of an rear end for pointing this out but... She did say before she wouldn't do any more debates after she debated Blaire, it clearly took a toll on her psychologically (Blaire is pretty bad) and I felt like that was a completely reasonable decision. Contrapoints changes her mind over stuff and I used to admire that, she's not afraid of going back and admit she was wrong. Like in the earlier videos she was a little bit more critical of Anita Sarkeesian and then later in one of the commentary videos she was kinda "actually I was wrong about this, back then I was still very conditioned to all the gamergater rhetoric that people repeated around her but now I know this is bullshit". So yeah, it's not like I looked up to Contrapoints as a mistress of all The Good and Perfect Takes, but I felt like her videos were a journey where both she and me (as the audience) were thinking and learning about stuff together. But now I don't know anymore. I don't feel the same sense of progress. She's actively choosing to die on some hosed up hills.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Yeah but didn't somebody do some basic arithmetic and come out with that if the event attains a size suitable to its venue it's going to raise far more than could reasonably be spent on getting people there? Did they factor in the cost of the milk baths that are part of Contrapoint's rider? bessantj posted:Just so I know is Natalie Contra's name? Yes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:07
|
|
|
Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:Are you sure you've got your YouTube superstars lined up right, there? Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means, but Shaun is the one who I remember saying the main reason why he didn't go all right alt-right is, to paraphrase, "there but for the grace of God go I". I remember Contra saying she'd have been in feminist cringe compilations if you'd have pointed a camera in her direction during Iraq war protests. Can't source that claim, since I don't remember which video that was in, but there you go. She has a whole video about it: “how I became a feminist” or something like that. She literally describes being an mra who changed through being challenged by classmates and professors. She also had other youtube identities before Contrapoints that she’s scrubbed away, but people like Dick Coughlin remember her from when she was one of the annoying aggressive youtube atheists. She knew Lacy Green back when that’s all she was too, before Laci did sex education. And Laci later blocked her on facebook for some antifeminist posting or other. This feels kind of like dirty laundry, but she’s talked about it all in videos or commentary on videos.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
Symbolic Butt posted:I know I'm being kind of an rear end for pointing this out but... She did say before she wouldn't do any more debates after she debated Blaire, it clearly took a toll on her psychologically (Blaire is pretty bad) and I felt like that was a completely reasonable decision. To be honest I don't know why SJ-left twitter feels they own Contra to the point they can dictate how and how not she spreads her message. Whether or not you think meeting the right head-on on their own ground is a worthwhile tactic, it's clear she's acting in good faith and at least trying to engage with the subset of the alt-right who genuinely mean what they say about freedom of speech and logic and debate and entirely consistent with her long-stated belief of engaging with her ideological opponents. And as for concerns she may pull a Laci Green, maybe dragging her so hard she ends up reassessing entirely how she engages with her fanbase and making shoeonhead come off as a reasonable voice in the discussion isn't the best way of sending the message that the left is a friendly and tolerant place?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:22
|
|
|
multijoe posted:engage with the subset of the alt-right who genuinely mean what they say about freedom of speech and logic and debate and entirely consistent with her long-stated belief of engaging with her ideological opponents. Glad she's going to engage with nobody then
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:24
|
|
|
multijoe posted:To be honest I don't know why SJ-left twitter feels they own Contra to the point they can dictate how and how not she spreads her message. Exactly, she's who she is and people shouldn't build their identity around her. If you like her great, if not, that's fine too but either way she doesn't owe anyone anything.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:27
|
|
|
Sounds like people are trying to stifle a discussion, or a debate if you will
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:30
|
|
|
multijoe posted:To be honest I don't know why SJ-left twitter feels they own Contra to the point they can dictate how and how not she spreads her message. Whether or not you think meeting the right head-on on their own ground is a worthwhile tactic, it's clear she's acting in good faith and at least trying to engage with the subset of the alt-right who genuinely mean what they say about freedom of speech and logic and debate and entirely consistent with her long-stated belief of engaging with her ideological opponents. It’s just like how nerds think they own their favorite comic books or Star Treks and go on insane vendettas when something they don’t like happens, or sports fans and their teams. Undersocialized nerds behave badly and possessively, especially when given any form of access.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:30
|
|
|
Lessail posted:Glad she's going to engage with nobody then Nearly every video she makes ends up with comments below from former alt-righters saying her videos really helped them reassess their beliefs. Whilst alot of the are probably beyond helping, not all are and even if you disagree this is, again, a long held belief of hers and entirely in keeping with the stated goals of her channel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
multijoe posted:Nearly every video she makes ends up with comments below from former alt-righters saying her videos really helped them reassess their beliefs. Whilst alot of the are probably beyond helping, not all are and even if you disagree this is, again, a long held belief of hers and entirely in keeping with the stated goals of her channel. Then we come back to the point of not doing this to help them raise money, which is the strongest criticism and got the weakest rebuttal from her.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 21:51 |
|
|
multijoe posted:Nearly every video she makes ends up with comments below from former alt-righters saying her videos really helped them reassess their beliefs. Whilst alot of the are probably beyond helping, not all are and even if you disagree this is, again, a long held belief of hers and entirely in keeping with the stated goals of her channel. One has to also assume that because ex-Nazi support groups exist there are people who are capable of changing their opinions.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:37
|
|