|
Augus posted:I think Contrapoints is making a dumb mistake but I also think it's an understandable dumb mistake that I even might've made if I was the same person I was a year or two ago. i could more understand making this mistake if trump didn't happen. the reaction of the far right to his election have pretty clearly shown that they cannot be reached through reason or ~decorum~ or whatever dumb bullshit. there are typically republican voters who can be won over, but not through events like this. the recent virginia elections where a transwoman beat the man proudly proclaiming himself as 'virginia's #1 homophobe' and a socialist beat out the gop whip show this pretty clearly. you know what they didn't do to reach these voters? events like this. instead they talked to voters about issues that directly affected them rather than going around trying to change people's minds about gender, and it worked. the kinds of people who show up to events like the one contrapoints is going to will not be won over by discussions about gender, in fact i don't think any will be won over at all by anyone even slightly to the left of themselves and they aren't the people that matter on the grand scale of things.
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 14:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 18:22 |
|
|
Lessail posted:Shame contra's threads rely on painting her critics as a hateful, unreasonable, intellectually dishonest hivemind a good description of twitter, frankly, which is where she's getting this from, so...
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 14:23
|
|
|
Posting this for a new page since I think it might have gotten lost: SFDebris has posted the first episode of Hermit's Journey. It's only the first episode and it's already got some insights into how Phantom Menace/The Prequels were weirdly disjointed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 14:56
|
|
|
Lessail posted:Shame contra's threads rely on painting her critics as a hateful, unreasonable, intellectually dishonest hivemind What the heck? She explicitly separates the legit criticism from the regular flaming in both threads. Like, actually goes out of her way to mention that there's a distinction. Edit: Yvonmukluk posted:Posting this for a new page since I think it might have gotten lost: Oh hell yes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 16:37
|
|
|
Puppy Time posted:What the heck? She explicitly separates the legit criticism from the regular flaming in both threads. Like, actually goes out of her way to mention that there's a distinction. She really doesn't
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:02
|
|
|
Yvonmukluk posted:Posting this for a new page since I think it might have gotten lost: Sweet gonna watch this when I get home. This is the only thread where, when I see a bunch of new posts, I avoid it because I know it's all awful poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:28
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:Sweet gonna watch this when I get home. really? i find that's every thread
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:29
|
|
|
Yvonmukluk posted:Posting this for a new page since I think it might have gotten lost: I wish he'd do more Babylon 5 reviews In other news https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4NgO69RprE
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
Puppy Time posted:What the heck? She explicitly separates the legit criticism from the regular flaming in both threads. Like, actually goes out of her way to mention that there's a distinction. She says there's a difference but then instantly says 'but MOST of it was the bad kind and wow your 'fans' are just so quick to betray you if you even inch out of line' which...is really kinda manipulative and lovely, as if they had some obligation to stay 'on her side' by never disliking something she did? Like, imagine reading that stuff as a trans fan of hers who took up issue with what she did. It kinda reads like she feels most of her 'criticism' wasn't constructive and just people trying to hurt her out of spite and anger.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:She says there's a difference but then instantly says 'but MOST of it was the bad kind and wow your 'fans' are just so quick to betray you if you even inch out of line' which...is really kinda manipulative and lovely, as if they had some obligation to stay 'on her side' by never disliking something she did? This tweet of hers sums up that sentiment imo https://twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/936094148578496512
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:She says there's a difference but then instantly says 'but MOST of it was the bad kind and wow your 'fans' are just so quick to betray you if you even inch out of line' which...is really kinda manipulative and lovely, as if they had some obligation to stay 'on her side' by never disliking something she did? Like, imagine reading that stuff as a trans fan of hers who took up issue with what she did. It kinda reads like she feels most of her 'criticism' wasn't constructive and just people trying to hurt her out of spite and anger. You need to put that into the context of the actual thread, though, which is the psychological impact of the parasocial relationship between YouTubers and viewers, and the pitfall of turning your viewers into one giant abstract mega-friend. It's a very emotionally dangerous thing to do because if your audience gets large enough then any mistake or controversial choice will absolutely invoke some level of "you betrayed me" response, which, due to the nature of the relationship and the ideoform of the, again, one giant abstract mega-friend, becomes nigh-impossible to parse out into comprehensible, sane chunks. Not to belabour the point, but we're one page removed from Intrinsic Field Marshal casually suggesting Allison should do videos in a swimsuit. When you've drawn 30,000+ followers on Twitter there will absolutely be a noticeable vein of people with a deeply unhealthy sense of ownership of your time, attention, and behaviour. We tend to focus on the creepers, but it's not strictly limited to people who always want to see your feet or ask you to burp in every video. There will be people who will lash out in ways that are inexcusable, no matter how authentic their anger is, and if you, as a creator, have put too much of your own emotional support structure onto that abstract mega-friend then those reactions are going to mess you up, real bad. That's what that thread is about.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:44
|
|
|
fart
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:49
|
|
|
Noah Caldwell-Gervais put up the second part of his travel accross the western US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9IARQhULgY I also recently found a report on how Youtube demonetization impacts videos even beyond the money.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:55
|
|
|
FoldableHuman posted:You need to put that into the context of the actual thread, though, which is the psychological impact of the parasocial relationship between YouTubers and viewers, and the pitfall of turning your viewers into one giant abstract mega-friend. It's a very emotionally dangerous thing to do because if your audience gets large enough then any mistake or controversial choice will absolutely invoke some level of "you betrayed me" response, which, due to the nature of the relationship and the ideoform of the, again, one giant abstract mega-friend, becomes nigh-impossible to parse out into comprehensible, sane chunks. Not to belabour the point, but we're one page removed from Intrinsic Field Marshal casually suggesting Allison should do videos in a swimsuit. When you've drawn 30,000+ followers on Twitter there will absolutely be a noticeable vein of people with a deeply unhealthy sense of ownership of your time, attention, and behaviour. We tend to focus on the creepers, but it's not strictly limited to people who always want to see your feet or ask you to burp in every video. There will be people who will lash out in ways that are inexcusable, no matter how authentic their anger is, and if you, as a creator, have put too much of your own emotional support structure onto that abstract mega-friend then those reactions are going to mess you up, real bad. The problem isn't anything Contra's critics have brought up, but rather that she cared too much about them
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 19:58
|
|
|
FoldableHuman posted:You need to put that into the context of the actual thread, though, which is the psychological impact of the parasocial relationship between YouTubers and viewers, and the pitfall of turning your viewers into one giant abstract mega-friend. It's a very emotionally dangerous thing to do because if your audience gets large enough then any mistake or controversial choice will absolutely invoke some level of "you betrayed me" response, which, due to the nature of the relationship and the ideoform of the, again, one giant abstract mega-friend, becomes nigh-impossible to parse out into comprehensible, sane chunks. Not to belabour the point, but we're one page removed from Intrinsic Field Marshal casually suggesting Allison should do videos in a swimsuit. When you've drawn 30,000+ followers on Twitter there will absolutely be a noticeable vein of people with a deeply unhealthy sense of ownership of your time, attention, and behaviour. We tend to focus on the creepers, but it's not strictly limited to people who always want to see your feet or ask you to burp in every video. There will be people who will lash out in ways that are inexcusable, no matter how authentic their anger is, and if you, as a creator, have put too much of your own emotional support structure onto that abstract mega-friend then those reactions are going to mess you up, real bad. intrinsic field marshall is a troll who posts nothing but garbage to rile the thread up
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:00
|
|
|
FoldableHuman posted:You need to put that into the context of the actual thread, though, which is the psychological impact of the parasocial relationship between YouTubers and viewers, and the pitfall of turning your viewers into one giant abstract mega-friend. It's a very emotionally dangerous thing to do because if your audience gets large enough then any mistake or controversial choice will absolutely invoke some level of "you betrayed me" response, which, due to the nature of the relationship and the ideoform of the, again, one giant abstract mega-friend, becomes nigh-impossible to parse out into comprehensible, sane chunks. Not to belabour the point, but we're one page removed from Intrinsic Field Marshal casually suggesting Allison should do videos in a swimsuit. When you've drawn 30,000+ followers on Twitter there will absolutely be a noticeable vein of people with a deeply unhealthy sense of ownership of your time, attention, and behaviour. We tend to focus on the creepers, but it's not strictly limited to people who always want to see your feet or ask you to burp in every video. There will be people who will lash out in ways that are inexcusable, no matter how authentic their anger is, and if you, as a creator, have put too much of your own emotional support structure onto that abstract mega-friend then those reactions are going to mess you up, real bad. Right and I don't deny her right to want to step back to avoid that. It's smart to, but there's a world of difference between 'my fans got weird boundary issues' and 'I'm responding to people being genuinely upset that I'm helping sell tickets to an alt right event by saying my problem is I care too much about the fans I'm blocking and never actually addressing the issues of'. Contra seems to be in a bad place here and I'm not ascribing malice here but she's kinda trying to lump every critic in with the worst of the worst.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:06
|
|
|
FoldableHuman posted:You need to put that into the context of the actual thread, though, which is the psychological impact of the parasocial relationship between YouTubers and viewers, and the pitfall of turning your viewers into one giant abstract mega-friend. It's a very emotionally dangerous thing to do because if your audience gets large enough then any mistake or controversial choice will absolutely invoke some level of "you betrayed me" response, which, due to the nature of the relationship and the ideoform of the, again, one giant abstract mega-friend, becomes nigh-impossible to parse out into comprehensible, sane chunks. Not to belabour the point, but we're one page removed from Intrinsic Field Marshal casually suggesting Allison should do videos in a swimsuit. When you've drawn 30,000+ followers on Twitter there will absolutely be a noticeable vein of people with a deeply unhealthy sense of ownership of your time, attention, and behaviour. We tend to focus on the creepers, but it's not strictly limited to people who always want to see your feet or ask you to burp in every video. There will be people who will lash out in ways that are inexcusable, no matter how authentic their anger is, and if you, as a creator, have put too much of your own emotional support structure onto that abstract mega-friend then those reactions are going to mess you up, real bad. It was a joke designed to see if I could get Lorne to reeee at me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:09
|
|
|
Baka-nin posted:So anyone remember the channel Innuendo Studios? Its done some interesting think pieces on the usual darlings of the indie gamingshpere. Its currently doing a series about debating online, how it works and why it is the way it is nowadays that's worth a look, especially if this thread is going to stay on this topic for awhile. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ I've been keeping up with the Alt-Right Playbook and I've been loving it. This latest episode of the alt-right never playing defense was especially enlightening. The tangent about how the right and left appearing to be in the win (optics) is relevant with the Tabby character in a recent Contra video, a portrayal of the side of the left that doesn't care about optics. Many people don't see Contra's point with the Tabby character but maybe if they give this Innuendo Studios video a look it might resonate with them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
Honestly, this whole thing leaves me confused more than anything. Who still believes in respectability politics in this day and age? That winning over people with reasoned arguments in good faith works so long as you present yourself properly? And that's not getting into the whole racist and classist underpinnings of what counts as 'respectable'. Haven't the last few years shown that sort of thing is just another tool to keep people from challenging the actual exploitative systems?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:29
|
|
|
financially racist posted:i'd say centrists are actually closer to a hivemind at this point than the right and they are doing way more harm to political discourse than anyone like contrapoints going to this farcical event could ever hope to do. Why do you talk as if contra isn't part of the centralist group.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 20:44
|
|
|
Yikes. You know, I promised never to wade into this thread again, because I do believe in boundaries and I am very much of the mind that it is in bad taste to join a conversation where a public figure is being spoken of, not spoken to, but since I’m not the one being spoken of, gently caress it. I promised myself I’d never discuss anime again and I’m about to fall back down that rabbit hole next month, so I’m breaking all sorts of promises to myself. Yes, I have continued to keep up with this thread because with some exceptions (whom you guys point out with regularity), it’s a generally good place to find informed, balanced (not always fawning) critique, both of my content and my colleagues, which is in extremely short supply. It’s with that in mind I’m honestly a little shocked at how much this thread is just not getting the point of Contra’s second thread, even after Dan explained it to you in very clear and pointed terms. I feel like Contra explained it very clearly, and yet the point is being missed, or if it isn’t being missed, it’s her bad for “caring too much” for caring what a bunch of strangers think. She explained realizing that she’d become too emotionally dependent on her audience, then explained “and this is why this whole situation is so hurtful to me”. It doesn’t matter whether she pulls out of the event or not—the damage is done. And to see people in this thread in effect blame her for “caring too much” it’s just… what? I’d expect that from the chans, fam. And, okay yeah, a few people in this thread, but on the whole? Christ, people, you’re better than that. Now, I don’t honestly care one whit about the Discourse over the event itself, because it’s become so hyperbolized as to become meaningless - what I do care about is the effect it’s having on Natalie, and there is a metatextual conversation to be had (again, Dan pointed that out). Content creators can become addicted to this flood of sudden attention, especially when you get a profile as big and as fast as Contra did. She told me about a fan meet up she had in Chicago, and I thought that was insane--I would never do that, because interacting with fans means to put on A Face, and I find that poo poo exhausting. But she didn't see it that way at all, she is of a personality type where it does feel emotionally fulfilling, which, I think, is why the sudden stark realization that your fans are not your friends is a little traumatizing. The point of that thread is that your audience is not your friend, not because they’re mean to you sometimes and you just can’t take the criticism, but because you are a Brand™, an item that they are consuming. They do not know you, they just know the idea of you, the version of yourself you are selling. But it can be confusing because, after all, that Brand™ is based on your true self, and in Natalie’s case, you can perhaps even believe that it is your true self that people are buying. But it never, ever is. Personally, I’ve never been anything close to Natalie’s position, because I’m a paranoid, hateful ogre who has never trusted my audience, and am fairly certain that one of these innocent fanboys who tweets at me regularly is going to kill and eat me one day. However, I do believe that Natalie’s circumstance of suddenly realizing that you’d turned your audience into an emotional support surrogate megafriend is not only going to become more and more common, but that it’s incredibly relevant outside of one YouTuber’s mistake. It’s why centrists who “just want to ask questions” about gender and race go full fash when their audience turns on them when they start showing "SJW tendencies" like... I dunno, conceding that the holocaust happened. They lean into those fashy points of view because they crave that addictive validation of that hive mind megafriend. It’s why Blaire White shits on her own community so flagrantly—it’s just so nice to be one of the good ones. I’m not like those other girls, one of the good ones. This idea that most people espouse points of view on the Internet because they considered multiple, well-reasoned arguments, rather than because of that addictive rush of validation, is SO naďve. This new crop of content creators develop content based on what nets them the most and consistent positive attention from their emotional support megafriend, not the other way around. I’m proud that Natalie at least realized this rather than falling down the rabbit hole of other, dumber YouTubers. I’m disappointed that this point is being willfully missed so we can in effect blame her for having a genuine emotional reaction.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 21:55
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Can you ask Obscurus Lupa to wear a swimsuit for a episode of Baywatching? Ah, I hadn't been to this thread in a while.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:09
|
|
|
Pirate Jenny posted:Now, I don’t honestly care one whit about the Discourse over the event itself, because it’s become so hyperbolized as to become meaningless - what I do care about is the effect it’s having on Natalie, and there is a metatextual conversation to be had (again, Dan pointed that out). Feels like these two go hand in hand, and may be the actual point as opposed to what Dan suggested.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:14
|
|
|
Miss Wallace posted:Ah, I hadn't been to this thread in a while.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
Pirate Jenny posted:Yikes. It must be excruciating to endure, and I’m so sorry you have to be the ones to figure out ways to cope with it just because you refuse the role of lazy bomb-throwers. In all other modes of discourse you can just be an argument or a text or a corpus and you’ll be engaged as an argument or an author-function only, and it’s uncomfortable how arguments shade into personas or persons when you have to be present in the youtube way. I hope there is a smoother path forward for all of you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:27
|
|
|
It’s also worth mentioning that only the most vocal minority complain, and those not feeling a need to complain won’t.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:Right and I don't deny her right to want to step back to avoid that. It's smart to, but there's a world of difference between 'my fans got weird boundary issues' and 'I'm responding to people being genuinely upset that I'm helping sell tickets to an alt right event by saying my problem is I care too much about the fans I'm blocking and never actually addressing the issues of'. Contra seems to be in a bad place here and I'm not ascribing malice here but she's kinda trying to lump every critic in with the worst of the worst. I think to a certain degree it's less about Contra's fans having weird boundary issues and Contra herself having boundary issues. Contra says that in the thread herself: she's been combative and defensive because she felt betrayed by her fans feeling betrayed. And she acknowledges that's unhealthy and wrong. I agree it's not necessarily a response to doing the alt-right event, but I also don't think it's meant as one. It's a response to how she acted when called out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
there seems to be this increasingly hard-rear end 'take no prisoners' attitude growing in popularity, and the person beyond the persona doesn't matter, only the optics and the usefulness towards 'the cause'
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
Miss Wallace posted:Ah, I hadn't been to this thread in a while. I only said the comment to wind Lorne Kates up. I didnt mean any intent to insult you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:49
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3uZCVQyiY EDIT: I'm sorry, it had to be said. Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Nov 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:50
|
|
|
I'm a dumbass: Who is Natalie?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 22:58
|
|
|
Kunster posted:I'm a dumbass: Who is Natalie? Contrapoints.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
Ya I only get involved when the nonsense pokes more into my field, hence why I poked at the "fundraising" ordeal and the Laurie Penny weird quote. Otherwise yeah, she probably needs a break from this sort of stuff.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:05
|
|
|
Pirate Jenny posted:It doesn’t matter whether she pulls out of the event or not—the damage is done. Just picking this one thing out because I really don't feel like that's true, the damage isn't done, it's pending, lending legitimacy to or god forbid helping them actually make money only opens up the potential for worse to come. They could just say "On second thought to hell with this" and not give the thinly veiled hatemongers exposure to raise money, I'll make the assumption that'd quell at least a big chunk of the criticism going at them right now, which is predominantly about the whole "Buy some tickets to these dickweeds transperson sideshow here" deal. Obviously it wouldn't stop everything because people are nuts and the worst of them love to crop up on twitter, but it'd be a big positive either way if they didn't help the "Free Speech Club" in any tangible way. Pirate Jenny posted:To her. The damage is done to her. Ah, yeah obviously on that one and I wish some people hadn't been/weren't being so crap. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Nov 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:15
|
|
|
To her. The damage is done to her. And to break the rules and be human for a moment, god forbid, I'm way more concerned about that than the impact of her speaking at a ticketed event at a freeze peach club on The Discourse.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:28
|
|
|
I like how you all gang up on a trans person because they are doing something you dont like. It all comes across as very A-Loggy https://sonichu.com/cwcki/A-Logging
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:31
|
|
|
yeah, can we not do the pronoun slighting please
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:33
|
|
|
Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:I like how you all gang up on a trans person because they are doing something you dont like. Well that's one of the worst things I've ever read and I've read my own posts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:36
|
|
|
There are no people, just The Discourse
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 18:22 |
|
|
Having been a moderator on Contra's Discord server, I do not blame Contra for not liking a large portion of her fanbase.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2017 23:38
|
|
