Nessus posted:Does this mean Agent X is Kazuma Kiryu? Or is he more Majima? He was like a young kiryu but then he got all Wade Wilson'd up so he's closer to Majima.
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Nov 30, 2017 23:14
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Covok posted:I think you're reaching a little bit with the Jubilee one. Rhyno posted:He's not. People have been pointing that one out since she was created. He's really not, and I like Jubilee.
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Nov 30, 2017 23:14
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Lightning Lord posted:Master of Kung Fu is actually a really good comic. I like Jubilee. I also like all the early solo Woverine stuff, both the Miller series and the Madripoor stuff. I'll go to bat somewhat for those comics. You can like every one of these characters but still recognize the problems inherent in their conception. I mean I love Luke Cage but nobody can tell me the original Power Man run isn't problematic. Except Armor. If you like Armor you suck.
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Nov 30, 2017 23:16
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Lurdiak posted:You can like every one of these characters but still recognize the problems inherent in their conception. I mean I love Luke Cage but nobody can tell me the original Power Man run isn't problematic. Ya. Lurdiak posted:Except Armor. If you like Armor you suck. Wasn't she the hot character find of whatever year she came out? I remember people being bananas for her
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Nov 30, 2017 23:21
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I thought she was just another Kitty/Jubilee but with Whedon's X-team
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Nov 30, 2017 23:23
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You guys are all forgetting about Surge! Everyone has forgotten Surge. 
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Nov 30, 2017 23:35
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Lightning Lord posted:Ya. I know Armor was the Japanese pet character for the x-men anime. I didn't think she was had bad... Covok posted:In light of the news of the Marvel EIC, this review has become retroactively amazing;    This all seems very Japanese to me
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Nov 30, 2017 23:45
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I'm not going to say that Amadeus Cho, the Korean American character created by a Korean-American writer, is problematic.
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Nov 30, 2017 23:50
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Sinners Sandwich posted:I thought she was just another Kitty/Jubilee but with Whedon's X-team Gross Postal Parcel posted:
I'm starting to actively hate Cebulski here
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Nov 30, 2017 23:54
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X-Men in general have a proud tradition of "Ethnic/racial minorities have a costume, power, and name that ties into their identity" The Asian representation at Marvel is pretty bad in general though. Amadeus, Nico, and Karma are pretty good, but I struggle to think of much else. Which I suppose is stronger than the Arabic, Native American, and Indian representation in Marvel.
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Nov 30, 2017 23:58
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They should do more stereotypical Asian characters more creatively. Like a Japanese mutant who has the power to change the past through her flower arrangements. Or a Thai character who has Sepak Takraw based powers. Or a Chinese villain who has aquaman-style psychic control of rats, flies, mosquitoes, and sparrows.
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Dec 1, 2017 00:01
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Lurdiak posted:Marvel has a problem with their asian characters in general. I've pointed this out before. Shang chi is Bruce lee. You should be angry about the fu manchu connection. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 00:03
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Yeah, we just need stereotypes that require 2 seconds of thought instead of a measly 1. That will solve everything.
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Dec 1, 2017 00:04
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It's a good thing Roy Thomas didn't try to be clever and call Sunfire "Hiro Shima". Whatever happened to his sister or his cousin, Sunpyre?
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Dec 1, 2017 00:06
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I meant that as a joke, but after a moment's consideration Four Pests Man is actually a really really good idea
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Dec 1, 2017 00:11
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Cindy Moon - post Spider-verse at least - isn't too bad is she? Though I suppose Silk is a iffy code name isn't it.
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Dec 1, 2017 00:14
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Roth posted:X-Men in general have a proud tradition of "Ethnic/racial minorities have a costume, power, and name that ties into their identity" Both Dani Moonstar and James Proudstar were great, but also Marvel needs to buy a loving phone book from an Indian Reservation.
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Dec 1, 2017 00:26
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Dani's my actual favorite of the New Mutants.
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Dec 1, 2017 00:27
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Wheat Loaf posted:It's a good thing Roy Thomas didn't try to be clever and call Sunfire "Hiro Shima". Sunpyre was killed during the x-corps storyline
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Dec 1, 2017 01:30
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Good grief, this week's issue of Jean Grey had Emma...actually sounding and acting like Emma? I can't remember the last time that happened, everyone who's written her since Gillen left haven't understood the first drat thing about her.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:43
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Sentinel Red posted:Good grief, this week's issue of Jean Grey had Emma...actually sounding and acting like Emma? I can't remember the last time that happened, everyone who's written her since Gillen left haven't understood the first drat thing about her. I'm still bitter about Warren Ellis undoing the entirety of her Generation X character development in his first loving issue.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:49
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Lurdiak posted:You can like every one of these characters but still recognize the problems inherent in their conception. I mean I love Luke Cage but nobody can tell me the original Power Man run isn't problematic.  It seemed like they walked Armor's power concept back from "my honorable samurai and daimyo ancestors," at least.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:46
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I remember liking Armor a lot last time she was around but haven't thought of her much in years.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:32
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You also forgot Hazmat, who's power is that she's... radioactive. 
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Dec 1, 2017 04:22
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Guy Goodbody posted:They should do more stereotypical Asian characters more creatively. Like a Japanese mutant who has the power to change the past through her flower arrangements. Or a Thai character who has Sepak Takraw based powers. Or a Chinese villain who has aquaman-style psychic control of rats, flies, mosquitoes, and sparrows. See you're joking but one of the villains in the new Iron Fist is literally that last one with rats.
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Dec 1, 2017 05:01
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Some folks have mentioned this already, I gotta reiterate that here's a legitimate danger in being so broad about what's racist or not that you hamper representation more than you improve it. Amadeus Cho is an easy example. People always go for the "he's smart and knows math" schtick to suggest that he's just another example of an Asian character being saddled with Asian-affiliated superpowers, but that's so dang specious. By that logic, being Iron Man or Mr. Fantastic are also Asian-affiliated superpowers (because of mechs! And science!).
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Dec 1, 2017 05:08
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If Marvel had more asian characters who don't conform to the biggest stereotypes in media, I probably wouldn't blink at one who has super-math. No one is saying Amadeus Cho or any of the other asian characters (except Yellow Claw because seriously) need to be shelved or anything, and I completely reject the idea that being "too broad" about obvious racist stereotypes is somehow harmful. It's the same kind of specious logic that people bring up when you talk about sexualized female characters, arguing that if we go too far sexy people will develop complexes or whatever. No one is going to get hurt by discussing if a character has some conceptual issues or has been in iffy storylines. No one is under attack here.
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Dec 1, 2017 06:13
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If I remember correctly, Greg Pak made Cho's "hypermind" that way as a direct defiance of the stereotype. He's a smart kid who's good at math who's also impulsive, reckless, wears his heart on his sleeve, and gets the girl.
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Dec 1, 2017 06:17
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Lurdiak posted:If Marvel had more asian characters who don't conform to the biggest stereotypes in media, I probably wouldn't blink at one who has super-math. No one is saying Amadeus Cho or any of the other asian characters (except Yellow Claw because seriously) need to be shelved or anything, and I completely reject the idea that being "too broad" about obvious racist stereotypes is somehow harmful. It's the same kind of specious logic that people bring up when you talk about sexualized female characters, arguing that if we go too far sexy people will develop complexes or whatever. Most of them were made up decades ago, with the resulting simple and nowadays racist baggage, even if not meant as such back then. I only see three real ways to deal with it: not use the characters again (reducing diversity even more) - and ideally making new Asian characters (with the usual 90 % failure to launch rate), retconning the poo poo out of them, or using them and ignore the bad poo poo (like Marvel does with all their characters. Forgetting Daddy Fu-Manchu is not unfathomably worse than ignoring teenage Tony Stark.). Make them good enough characters to overshadow the baggage. Sexualized female characters you at least can give a finally decent costume and write better. With characters rooted in racist origins you can mostly only do the latter (good example of it is what Gene Luen Yang did in the excellent New Superman with several old-timey Yellow Peril characters). Well, you also can let go of the Qing Dynasty Mandarin robe. Decius fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 06:47
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Lurdiak posted:(except Yellow Claw because seriously) How do you feel about the version of Yellow Claw (Golden Claw) from Agents of Atlas? Decius posted:Make them good enough characters to overshadow the baggage. Sexualized female characters you at least can give a finally decent costume and write better. I'm for removing the idea that sexy is the default state of all female characters so you can actually have a character who has the trait of "sexy" and have it mean something. Like for example, Fire at DC - she's a model and the way she acts and dresses reflects that. But that's meaningless when every woman in superhero comics is just "sexy" anyway. Does that make sense?
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Dec 1, 2017 07:55
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BrianWilly posted:Some folks have mentioned this already, I gotta reiterate that here's a legitimate danger in being so broad about what's racist or not that you hamper representation more than you improve it. Amadeus Cho is an easy example. People always go for the "he's smart and knows math" schtick to suggest that he's just another example of an Asian character being saddled with Asian-affiliated superpowers, but that's so dang specious. By that logic, being Iron Man or Mr. Fantastic are also Asian-affiliated superpowers (because of mechs! And science!). How does that follow at all.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:13
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I wouldn't say Karma is unproblematic but I don't know how much of her character's issue are tied to being Asian. I think it's telling that a lot of the characters under discussion were created or, at least, fleshed out and heavily foregrounded by Chris Claremont who, for all of his strengths in the 70s and 80s was never really able to be subtle about his fixations. Perhaps ninjas and samurais and katanas weren't quite as prevalent as lazy no-effort tropes at the time-- especially before Frank Miller-- but that was still the well he liked to draw from, and it was still pretty lazy. The back-end of his stint on Wolverine for example is just a lot of orientalist fetishizing and honor and sax rohmer opulence and blah blah blah and Logan gets to gently caress the beautiful Madripoor girls and etc. and etc. and etc. Ditto Psylocke becoming Asian is fairly skeezy but is far from the skeeziest thing about that storyline-- I think part of why I give Jubilee a pass is because while, like Amadeus Cho, her powers are potentially dipping into gross stereotypes, they aren't really centered that way in terms of characterization, and in that initial Psylocke/Lady Mandarin storyline Jubes is pretty much the only character written as acting like a human being. (I also associate her most strongly with Larry Hama's Wolverine, which, again like Cho, had Asian characters written by an Asian writer, and that extra nuance showed). For all of Claremont's strengths as a character writer, I can't think of many of his (fairly many) Asian women who come off as characters rather than objects for Wolverine and Storm and Kitty to bounce off of. It's great and laudable that he was so committed to diluting the overwhelming whiteness of superhero comics but unfortunately he set a lot of shaky and troublesome groundwork for characters that would for better or worse stay very visible after him.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:35
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Lightning Lord posted:How do you feel about the version of Yellow Claw (Golden Claw) from Agents of Atlas? Honestly you need to change so much about the character to make him not racist, from the name to his personality and backstory, that it's not worth it. He's Fu Manchu with the serial numbers filed off and an even more racist name. It's not like he was in a ton of stories worth remembering anyway. You really might as well pretend he never existed. If you're a continuity nut and you absolutely feel the need to bring up something he was involved in, I guess at least "Golden Claw" is a way less racist name. Lightning Lord posted:I'm for removing the idea that sexy is the default state of all female characters so you can actually have a character who has the trait of "sexy" and have it mean something. Like for example, Fire at DC - she's a model and the way she acts and dresses reflects that. But that's meaningless when every woman in superhero comics is just "sexy" anyway. Does that make sense? It's worth pointing out that every female character, no matter her design, is constantly in danger of becoming a bombshell in superhero comics. Due to a combination of artist laziness and major cases of pervitude, characters who were designed from the start to be plain, frumpy, or just look a little off have all become very hot in a short amount of time. Pepper Potts is a great example. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 08:42
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I always tend to give Jubilee a bit of a pass too because to me her powers always came across like they were intended to convey the glitzy, colorful imagery of the early 90s pop aesthetic and it all jibed really well with her persona...as opposed to, like, the ancient honorable Chinese heritage of fireworks or something. Although, to be honest I also didn't know the difference between her and Dazzler for the longest time. CharlestheHammer posted:How does that follow at all.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:44
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There was that period where the artists seemingly forgot Jubilee was Chinese, that was awkward. I swear I read an interview somewhere where Jim Lee said he pushed for Jubilee to be Chinese-American specifically to increase Asian representation, and it does line up with the fact that while he was on X-men several (albeit, ultimately minor) characters of various Asian decent were added to the books. I'm not in any way trying to say that it isn't ultimately still a stereotypical representation or anything, I guess just saying that there may have been good intentions in that instance. Rick fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 08:45
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Rick posted:There was that period where the artists seemingly forgot Jubilee was Chinese, that was awkward. I'm sure no one set out to make a stereotypical or outright racist character. Like the ultimate example of well-meaning but clumsy is the character Rage. He's literally an angry black man with super strength called Rage, and his first appearance is him getting in a shouting match about racism with the Avengers. There's more to him than that, and the issue goes out of its way to have characters say that he actually has a point with his grievances, but to say that it's not a great look is putting it mildly.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:48
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Archyduke posted:I wouldn't say Karma is unproblematic but I don't know how much of her character's issue are tied to being Asian. I think it's telling that a lot of the characters under discussion were created or, at least, fleshed out and heavily foregrounded by Chris Claremont who, for all of his strengths in the 70s and 80s was never really able to be subtle about his fixations. Perhaps ninjas and samurais and katanas weren't quite as prevalent as lazy no-effort tropes at the time-- especially before Frank Miller-- but that was still the well he liked to draw from, and it was still pretty lazy. The back-end of his stint on Wolverine for example is just a lot of orientalist fetishizing and honor and sax rohmer opulence and blah blah blah and Logan gets to gently caress the beautiful Madripoor girls and etc. and etc. and etc. Yeah, the Sax Rohmer shout-out's pretty apt. One thing I've noticed as I've expanded my own familiarity with pop culture is how many of Claremont's influences were just worn on his sleeve: Heinlein, "Modesty Blaise," all sorts of British spy/sf fiction of the mid-20th century, etc. Karma's a two-steps-forward, one-step-back sort of thing to my mind, since it's not like a French-speaking Vietnamese boat person is that common an archetype, and if you ignore her codename, she's not bad. The biggest problem she always had was that her power set makes her binary in fight scenes; either she ends the fight by herself or she's utterly useless, the same way Xavier is. Archyduke posted:Ditto Psylocke becoming Asian is fairly skeezy but is far from the skeeziest thing about that storyline-- I think part of why I give Jubilee a pass is because while, like Amadeus Cho, her powers are potentially dipping into gross stereotypes, they aren't really centered that way in terms of characterization, and in that initial Psylocke/Lady Mandarin storyline Jubes is pretty much the only character written as acting like a human being. (I also associate her most strongly with Larry Hama's Wolverine, which, again like Cho, had Asian characters written by an Asian writer, and that extra nuance showed). For all of Claremont's strengths as a character writer, I can't think of many of his (fairly many) Asian women who come off as characters rather than objects for Wolverine and Storm and Kitty to bounce off of. It's great and laudable that he was so committed to diluting the overwhelming whiteness of superhero comics but unfortunately he set a lot of shaky and troublesome groundwork for characters that would for better or worse stay very visible after him. I thought Yukio was all right as far as that went, and Tyger Tiger. Mariko only rarely ascended beyond that level, though, and when she did it was maybe for one scene. I guess Colleen Wing technically counts, even if under Claremont, she's a bunch of samurai-movie tropes with a red wig on top.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:57
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Thinking about it why aren't there more comics from other Disney properties being published at Marvel? Disney having no confidence in their ability to deliver on children's comics is one thing, but why isn't there like, an Indiana Jones comic? It ties into Marvel's ongoing problem that pretty much everything they publish is a superhero book. Yeah, DC publishes a lot of superhero books too but they also have some other stuff.Lurdiak posted:Honestly you need to change so much about the character to make him not racist, from the name to his personality and backstory, that it's not worth it. He's Fu Manchu with the serial numbers filed off and an even more racist name. It's not like he was in a ton of stories worth remembering anyway. You really might as well pretend he never existed. If you're a continuity nut and you absolutely feel the need to bring up something he was involved in, I guess at least "Golden Claw" is a way less racist name. I thought he was used well and all but I pretty much agree with this. Lurdiak posted:It's worth pointing out that every female character, no matter her design, is constantly in danger of becoming a bombshell in superhero comics. Due to a combination of artist laziness and major cases of pervitude, characters who were designed from the start to be plain, frumpy, or just look a little off have all become very hot in a short amount of time. Pepper Potts is a great example. Yeah, and it can do damage to other characters. Like I think part of Bethany Cabe's schtick when she was created was "sexy Pepper" and with Pepper just becoming a pinup, part of her reason to exist went away. Wanderer posted:Yeah, the Sax Rohmer shout-out's pretty apt. One thing I've noticed as I've expanded my own familiarity with pop culture is how many of Claremont's influences were just worn on his sleeve: Heinlein, "Modesty Blaise," all sorts of British spy/sf fiction of the mid-20th century, etc. A lot of them were like this, like Jim Starlin was deeply influenced by Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion books, especially Elric, when he took over Warlock. Personally it doesn't bother me.
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Dec 1, 2017 09:02
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Lightning Lord posted:A lot of them were like this, like Jim Starlin was deeply influenced by Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion books, especially Elric, when he took over Warlock. Personally it doesn't bother me. Me neither, it's one of the things I like about that generation of fans-turned-writers-- they're all about this messy, excessive love for whatever it is they happen to love, and the clumsiness is (often) offset by the joy of their enthusiasm. It's fannish in a good way even if it kind of paves the way for continuity-cop pedantry later on. Wanderer posted:Karma's a two-steps-forward, one-step-back sort of thing to my mind, since it's not like a French-speaking Vietnamese boat person is that common an archetype, and if you ignore her codename, she's not bad. The biggest problem she always had was that her power set makes her binary in fight scenes; either she ends the fight by herself or she's utterly useless, the same way Xavier is. My issues with Karma (and with Tyger Tyger too come to think of it-- and Psylocke actually...) are more about narratives of consent and agency and how Karma in particular just keeps getting her agency overridden or violated over and over again. I don't want to make it sound like it's only Asian women that Claremont has this happen too but it's something that every reader of Claremont has to grapple with and in my case I can never 100% make my peace with it.
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Dec 1, 2017 09:30
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Lightning Lord posted:Thinking about it why aren't there more comics from other Disney properties being published at Marvel? Disney having no confidence in their ability to deliver on children's comics is one thing, but why isn't there like, an Indiana Jones comic? It ties into Marvel's ongoing problem that pretty much everything they publish is a superhero book. Yeah, DC publishes a lot of superhero books too but they also have some other stuff. Disney is a ridiculously big entity and does not act as a monolithic company, there are numerous licensing deals concerning books and merchandise. Duck Tales comics are published by IDW, Fantagraphics do reprints of classic comics, Joe Books do novelizations and graphic novels aimed at bookstores, there is Egmont in Europe... Star Wars at Marvel made a lot of sense because of publishing history and because Star Wars being a PG-13 property is in the same group as the Marvel brand. Since Indiana Jones is package deal at Lucasfilm, Marvel will surely do something with it when the big Disney revs up promotion for the new movie starring the crumbling weed corpse of Ford.
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Dec 1, 2017 09:37
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