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Scialen posted:Just a quick question: Can anyone tell me what the progymnasmata section of "Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student, 4th Edition" is like, perhaps with a small excerpt? I've only been able to find previews/excerpts from the third edition online which doesn't have it, and I can't afford the book at the moment. TL; DR: No. I'm not familiar with this, and after talking to a few of the other regular posters in this thread, I don't think you are likely to get a satisfactory answer here. This is a pretty specialized text, much more likely to be used by....well students of rhetoric in an actual university class. Not so much by the general population of people who are trying to write fiction. I obviously don't know everyone who posts in here, much less reads the thread, so maybe someone will come out of the woodwork to help you out. Otherwise, you might try: -- Posting in another thread on Something Awful. Philosophy thread? I think there's a grad school thread? Maybe someone in the real literature thread in book barn has taken a class like this? There might be an even better one? I have no idea. -- Finding another forum online that is more specific to this kind of thing. Another thing which I have no idea about. -- Renting it from Amazon. It costs $80 to buy, but you can rent it for $20 (if you are in the US at least....), which might be worth it. -- Libraries. But the Seattle library doesn't have a copy of any edition, and the University near me only has one copy, and it's checked out until 2018.
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Nov 8, 2017 08:14
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:TL; DR: No. that's what I meant to say
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Nov 8, 2017 09:04
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:TL; DR: No. sebmojo posted:that's what I meant to say Thank you both! I'll scout around.
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Nov 8, 2017 17:55
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Scialen posted:Just a quick question: Can anyone tell me what the progymnasmata section of "Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student, 4th Edition" is like, perhaps with a small excerpt? I've only been able to find previews/excerpts from the third edition online which doesn't have it, and I can't afford the book at the moment. I don't have that one, but I do have Ancient Rhetorics for Contemporary Students, which I highly, highly recommend -- even for those who write fiction. In the olden days, all writers would have training in classic rhetoric techniques. If you're after something free, BYU's site Silva Rhetoricae is a great resource. It uses frames like it's the late 90s so you get that old school feel too!
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Nov 10, 2017 01:20
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FouRPlaY posted:I don't have that one, but I do have Ancient Rhetorics for Contemporary Students, which I highly, highly recommend -- even for those who write fiction. In the olden days, all writers would have training in classic rhetoric techniques. Yes! That approach was what led me to looking into the old methods - learning through imitating notable examples to prepare you for writing fiction (or in those days, epics and dramas) using forms such as narrative, ekphrasis, and ethopoeia. Thank you for the book and link recommendations - I'll see if I can find free excerpts online!
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Nov 10, 2017 02:27
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The prognastya gymnastarscapia describes words as lazers. Hope I helped.
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Nov 11, 2017 06:45
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FINALLY finished my first revision and editing pass on Brigade book 1. 97100 words total. I'm sure there are issues with it that I'll see when I re-read it but I'm done for the moment. Now to step away
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Nov 14, 2017 23:10
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anime was right posted:do any of yall have any advice on stuff like fantasy/scifi/world cons etc and networking there or anything thanks peace appreciate it I skipped like a hundred posts sorry but I had to say, in general, money should ALWAYS flow towards the author, never away. You should not need to pay for anything to get published. Maybe there's some kind of legitimate 'buy an audience with an agent' scenario but if so I've never heard of it.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:18
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General Battuta posted:I skipped like a hundred posts sorry but I had to say, in general, money should ALWAYS flow towards the author, never away. You should not need to pay for anything to get published. Maybe there's some kind of legitimate 'buy an audience with an agent' scenario but if so I've never heard of it. What are your thoughts on paying an editor out-of-pocket? I worry that once I finish a book I'll have no idea where its shortcomings are, and end up shopping around a pretty subpar book when I could be showing off something actually sellable with some good editing.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:55
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General Battuta posted:I skipped like a hundred posts sorry but I had to say, in general, money should ALWAYS flow towards the author, never away. You should not need to pay for anything to get published. Maybe there's some kind of legitimate 'buy an audience with an agent' scenario but if so I've never heard of it. Yog's Law. MockingQuantum posted:What are your thoughts on paying an editor out-of-pocket? I worry that once I finish a book I'll have no idea where its shortcomings are, and end up shopping around a pretty subpar book when I could be showing off something actually sellable with some good editing. Yog's Law doesn't apply here cos you're choosing to spend the money, you're not being charged for editing or publication. Doesn't seem worth it to me, though. If you don't know what's good about a manuscript, you probably don't have the taste to write a good one. In general, I'm not attacking you cos you said "I worry..." and man do writers worry.
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Nov 15, 2017 03:06
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General Battuta posted:Maybe there's some kind of legitimate 'buy an audience with an agent' scenario but if so I've never heard of it. There's tons of them. Writer's Digest, Manuscript Academy, lots of writer's conferences with pay-extra-to-pitch sessions. In the past 4-5 years I've spent trying to find an agent, almost every one of them I've looked at offers some sort of 'pay to talk to me' time. It doesn't guarantee you a drat thing, but it is something agents seem to have no problem doing.
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Nov 15, 2017 07:21
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I flipped through the last ten pages or so after looking through the info posts and not seeing it mentioned, and I'm just posting to ask if any of you have heard of or used StoryShop to catalogue your world building for long form fiction and prose and/or keep a database of your work/actually write? I don't write prose, so discussion about it only recently crept onto my radar indirectly. I work with an actually talented writer on short comics as well as a long form graphic novel, and for the past seven years or so we've been using google docs and google sheets to collaboratively work on timelines, brainstorming and scripting. I briefly did a free trial with scrivener, but found it bloated and kind of confusing and not really geared towards people who are more visually focused. I have a lot of trouble with endless lists and menus on white backgrounds, which...well, IS scrivener. My very brief foray with it left me wishing it was more like what StoryShop is trying to be, and I'm under the impression that StoryShop was made or at least bankrolled by writers who wished that scrivener was more like this, too. I started a free trial at a really dumb time and then didn't have time to actually use it during the trial, so today I tossed a month's subscription at it so I could actually try it out, as well as have something to do while I recover from surgery. I'd love to hear other people's impressions of it, as well as your complaints about features you think it needs major improvement on or is missing. And if you haven't heard of it, I guess I just introduced you to it now? Its website has a pretty quick introduction video to its features if it sounds like something you might use. It doesn't meet my needs perfectly and I'm a little bummed that I can't insert image files directly into individual paragraphs and chapters, because if it let me do that then I could completely move away from using google docs in addition to it. I ended up spending a chunk of time today submitting to their feature requests feedback, so hopefully I get lucky and it gets upvoted enough that they consider adding it in the near future. I'll have more time to mess around with it and port all my world building junk and outlines over from multiple google docs tomorrow afternoon, so if anyone has any questions about specific features it has, I'll be more equipped to answer and/or complain about those features and their functionality or lack thereof then if no one else is using it but might be considering it. I will say up front that if I do end up continuing my subscription past this month or buying a year all at once, I'm not very concerned about the cost--it's cheaper than netflix and I can write it off on my taxes as a business expense along with my Photoshop CC subscription and hosting junk. Very curious about what the general feel for this service is since I'd never seen anyone talking about it anywhere before I heard someone mention it on a creative podcast a couple of months ago!
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Nov 15, 2017 23:20
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If anyone is thinking about using it, Grammarly Premium is half-off today, makes a year ~$60.
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Nov 24, 2017 19:06
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PRADA SLUT posted:If anyone is thinking about using it, Grammarly Premium is half-off today, makes a year ~$60. is it worth it
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Nov 24, 2017 21:12
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anime was right posted:is it worth it Let me work it. I put my verb down flip it and reverse it. Ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod brev ym tup I Ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod brev ym tup I If you got a book, let me search it And find out how hard I gotta purge it Ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod brev ym tup I Ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod brev ym tup I (Come on)
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Nov 25, 2017 00:58
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 fix you're errors and resubmit post
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Nov 25, 2017 05:25
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PRADA SLUT posted:
you should probably turn on the plagiarism function
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Nov 25, 2017 12:15
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Maybe this is a weird place to ask, but does anyone know what happened to Didja Redo? He vanished off SA years ago and I always really liked his writing.
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Nov 30, 2017 05:15
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At a bit of a fork in the road with the prose style in my YA novel. It's my take on a Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew style mystery, but trying to inject more depth and character and thematic resonance into the whole mix. Originally I was looking to evoke a lot of emotion and sense of time and place through the prose, but going back and reading the original books makes me fear that I'm being far too verbose. I don't move anywhere near as fast as those books do, but I'm also going for a fundamentally different feeling than they were. Those books were far more light and breezy and mine is much more character-based, but I worry that my writing is a big of a slog to get through in comparison. However, I recognize that prose style has changed in the decades since the source material was written, so this may not be an issue for today's reader. So I took the introduction to one particularly egregious chapter and simplified it down closer to what's in those 30s/40s books to compare. This is all first-draft material, but I think it shows off my concern well: Stripped down version: quote:Danny raced his bicycle through the backstreets of Bonnifield, arriving at the base of a large tree on the edge of city limits. He parked the well-oiled machine next to a conspicuous red mailbox, then circled the tree to find a hidden series of pine boards nailed all the way up the trunk. With little effort he scaled the makeshift ladder up onto the platform and walked over to the the knotty, crooked door. KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK! or original version: quote:Danny sped through the backstreets of Bonnifield on his waxed and polished Red Ryder bicycle, wind whipping through his hair in the brisk morning air. He was on the Southeast side of town, directly behind the active construction site of Bonnifield’s new suburban-style development, quickly springing up house after identical house at the edge of city limits. I suspect that you'll all be in favor of the first due to its brevity and to-the-pointedness, but I do want to make sure that something good isn't being lost in the process. Also totally open to critiques of my prose style outside of verbosity. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 13:39
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Definitely the first, for me; I think the problem with the second is that it’s pure narrative. We don’t get any of Danny’s thoughts or feelings about what he’s seeing. Every sentence also gets the same structure - clauses and commas - so there’s no rhythm of shorts and longs and it reads sort of flat.
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Dec 1, 2017 15:47
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feedmyleg posted:Danny raced his bicycle through the backstreets of Buttfield toward the large tree on the edge of city limits he'd taken to calling Jimtree. He parked his lover next to a sultry red mailbox, then circled the tree to find a hidden series of pine boards nailed all the way up the back like some creepy s&m poo poo. With way too much effort, being both tiny and fat, he scaled the makeshift ladder up onto the platform and walked over to the the knotty, crooked door and pushed the buzzer, which played the Dukes of Hazzard theme. Fixed
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Dec 1, 2017 17:18
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Actually the second is the only one to imply any of Danny's thoughts, he's scared of falling. Second one reads like an introduction, first more like the middle or end. Don't know if the extra description is justified because you didn't say what you want the passage to do.
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Dec 1, 2017 17:24
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A lot of this depends on the purpose these scenes and locations serve the work as a whole. Are these locations going to be important to the plot or mystery, or are they there to set tone? One thing about a mystery is the way detail is presented, slowing down and providing more when the protagonist (and reader) are looking for clues. I actually found the second one to be more fun to read, simply for the greater variety over the [ADJECTIVE] [NOUN] repetition of the first. It does need to be condensed, of course - select the details that most effectively get what you want across. Is the bicycle maintenance important because it establishes the protagonist's methodical, detail-oriented nature and lets us know what kind of detective he'll be? Great, keep one instance. The lengthier detail about carefully climbing into the treehouse suggest he's unfamiliar with the space - is he invading it, or is this another example of his compulsive nature? Neither is implied in the short version, but if you want it to be, you should keep enough to convey where you're going. You should also keep an eye out for cliched phrases and images: the Red Ryder bicycle (a stock reference), the town's "very own" (shifts narrative voice to something folksier than we've seen so far), the phrase "well-oiled machine" is used almost exclusively metaphorically and stands out. Especially as an introduction, the action and presence of the original version feels more like a completed work than the stripped-down version, which is just a summary of what happened. To me, your original instincts show a good feel for where you want it to go, so I'd recommend writing it out that way if that's what comes naturally to you, and being selective about which bits you keep in the second draft. EDIT - Longposting at work gets me again! 
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Dec 1, 2017 18:03
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Cool, thanks all. Suspicions confirmed! This is the start of a chapter and the introduction to the Radio Relay League, so I wanted to have a bit of buildup to their reveal. I actually had a bunch of Danny's internal thought processes that I'd previously cut out since the passage was already so drat long and I just wanted to get to what's inside the treehouse already. I'll move forward with a hybrid of the two by cutting down most of the narrative description, adding back in the character's thoughts, and just getting to the point already. Or maybe I'll just go with crabrock's version. It's got a little more je ne sais quoi. And, yeah, I definitely have a bad habit of slipping into that comma/clause rhythm. That passage was just particularly troubled by it but it's just a good reminder to go back through everything I've written and vary up the sentence structure. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 18:05
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So how well does he know these Radio Folks? That really determines what you want to keep/develop.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:07
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Ah, was editing with the answer to that right as you posted! In the original version I wanted to emphasize that Danny is meticulous about how he goes about things, including his bike maintenance, navigation, and climbing skill. However, this is not the character's introduction (it's chapter 10 of an alternating narrative split between him and another character) and some of this has been covered before. I also wanted to show that while he does have knowledge of the place, he hasn't visited before. So I'm glad some of that's getting across, but it will definitely help me in my editing and refining to constantly ask myself whether or not certain passages are accomplishing what I'm going for, and what is extraneous or repeated that can be cut. I'll jump into his head a bit more and emphasize that he's sizing the place up a little. Outside of this passage my prose is also very folksy in some places and not as much in others, so that will definitely have to be evened out over time. Super helpful, all! I'm trying to churn out the first draft of this before I go back and edit/rewrite too much, but want to make sure I'm reigning in my worst habits along the way. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 18:11
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Where do ideas come from and how do you write? Harlan Ellison sums it up nicely, (for an rear end in a top hat, at least...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3jbeVA-lKM&t=1106s
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Dec 1, 2017 21:41
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HELP ME WITH A WORD: Here's the line I need to make better: It was as if she had a hard time keeping the corners of her mouth raised, despite ------ [knowing that this is the expected decorum? demeanor? Amenities? social etiquette.] Social norms? Expected civility? Example: The queen is assumed to always be polite, say non-offensive things. It's just expected, a social contract. So, sometimes you see her smile, like when meeting an offensive disgusting person, and it's obviously difficult, but she has to because that's what is expected. What the hell is that word? I'm going nuts. There's definitely a simple term to describe this expected conduct between people, even when it's the last thing the higher-class snooty person would really want to do. magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Dec 3, 2017 |
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Dec 3, 2017 18:31
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I don’t know that a single word will work there. You have several phrases that can turn well in that sentence if it’s rewritten to accommodate them. Despite the rigors of courtesy? Despite the obligations of nobility? Despite the rigid conventions of her status?
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Dec 3, 2017 19:04
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Phil Moscowitz posted:I don’t know that a single word will work there. I'm looking for something more of a class thing, not nobility... One person thinks they're better than the other, but tries not to show it. You thank the pizza guy and smile politely, even though he smells like a stoned hobo. You COULD hold your nose and throw the money at him, but that'd be uncouth. A social contract or something. Driving me nuts. I've re-written the line forty times now.
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Dec 3, 2017 19:33
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Social niceties.
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Dec 3, 2017 19:41
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noblesse oblige, niceties, obligations
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Dec 3, 2017 19:47
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Condescention. It's exactly the word Jane Austen used for that kind of noblesse oblige attitude, but maybe the meaning has shifted too far into the negative, if that's not what you're going for. I already know it doesn't fit well in your current sentence.
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Dec 4, 2017 06:25
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I guess I’m rather late to this party but thanks to the OP for all the info. It’s a bit of a relief to read some of that, I come from an academia background and have been somewhat paralyzed about writing for fear of being shouted down for plagiarism if anything I ever write happens to resemble or somehow include any aspects of other things written previously. Seems like that’s not so much a thing with fiction. I’ve been resisting reading too widely lest I take that influence into my own work, but it sounds safe to set that aside. Now to get over the worry that this story I want to write might ever be read or even slightly enjoyed by anyone anywhere. 
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Dec 6, 2017 20:26
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Thunderdome is great for 'I just want to write some stories', people may yell you but it is well-intentioned and weirdly addictive.
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Dec 6, 2017 20:38
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sebmojo posted:Thunderdome is great for 'I just want to write some stories', people may yell you but it is well-intentioned and weirdly addictive. I never felt all that yelled at, and yes, it's weirdly addictive indeed. I only did it like three times, but I still get annoyed that I don't have the time for it until after the holidays.
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Dec 6, 2017 21:39
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sebmojo posted:Thunderdome is great for 'I just want to write some stories', people may yell you but it is well-intentioned and weirdly addictive. I may have to take a crack at it just to see how turrible I am. I have already taken some more in-depth stabs at (notes for) this larger story I’ve had in mind, I just worry about effort vs return (not monetary). With the world screaming along as it is, would all that effort garner any notice (just readers, not trying to be famous). I tend to think not. Writing in and of itself can be worthwhile but part of the reward (for me, foolish though it may be) would be the enjoyment of others. REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 6, 2017 |
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Dec 6, 2017 21:53
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I hate myself when crits point out obvious poo poo I missed. Not the typos, not the bad grammar, but the key points to a story that, SOME HOW I kind of forgot to include because I was so deep into the story that everything was obvious. Is it my ADD? Is it overconfidence? Great examples on my story in TD from 2 weeks ago: An aging doctor serves vampires who've taken over, specifically he delivers their babies. Kind of a mix of "I Am Legend" and I don't know... a captive forced to heal his captors. What I forgot to include: - he's getting old and despite hating his captors, is weighing his options about joining them. - the vampires have been there a long long time. - I was trying to go for a last-minute ah-ha that the setting was morning, not evening, but I missed the mark in giving enough detail to set it up properly. Here's what I wanted: Multiple twists: OMG SHE'S A VAMPIRE OMG IT'S MORNING NOT NIGHT OMG HE'S OKAY BECOMING A VAMPIRE. What I accomplished: Ehh that's a long night of feeding which does not make sense given his disgust. And I get that. How the hell do I train myself to catch these missed targets ahead of time?
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Dec 12, 2017 14:26
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Edit carefully. Maybe work up a check list of elements you want to include and check the content against that?
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Dec 12, 2017 15:36
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Always double and triple check whether a twist is worth the story elements you're omitting or obfuscating to make it land. I quite liked your night/morning one, because you didnt need to hide other information to make it work, it just needed to be a little clearer.
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Dec 12, 2017 19:23
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