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HEY NONG MAN posted:I never got regular, reliable raises without having to beg for them before I had a union job I had a union at my last job. I made minimum wage. Toward the end of my year and half tenure, they ( United Food Workers! ) made a big stink about how the company wouldn't give us a .25 cent raise. I believe they got it in the renegotiated contract, but many positions were exempt- including all part time workers. If you were already over ten dollars an hour, you got nothing. I can't even remember what they succeeded in because all the negatives were huge. Solkanar512 posted:Corporate cynicism I totally get but it wasn’t “Puritan Work Ethic bullshit” we were feeling that morning. I'm glad you have a job that you can find meaning in.  Not many people do. But friend, when your job has no meaning, when your job doesn't pay you enough, then working yourself silly out of pride is like fighting long and hard for a piece of colored ribbon.I just work hard so I can finish up on time and go home. Working hard to leave early is what got me promoted.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:00
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The scene: ordering some black Friday clothes at 50% off at Eddie Bauer : OK, I assume you want to use the new credit union card on this No, Chase is giving (some amount) cash back at department stores. ... Eddie Bauer isn't a department store ..It isn't? No. A department store is a big store with departments like Macy's or Sears or JC Penney ... Like a shoe department, and a women's department, and a housewares department. *Goes to Chase to read exhaustive list of applicable stores* What are you doing? *reaches the end and looks beaten*For the record, she's way smarter than I am.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:27
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HEY NONG MAN posted:Yeah I don't think most people get a grand payoff like aerospace workers do. We get to watch our poo poo fly off 35,000 feet across the sky in defiance of God Himself. That’s a very fair point.
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Dec 1, 2017 08:51
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Solkanar512 posted:There’s never an excuse to poo poo on service workers but I don’t think we need to whip back so far as to say that one can never take pride in job well done. Stockholm syndrome
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Dec 1, 2017 09:01
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HEY NONG MAN posted:Yeah I don't think most people get a grand payoff like aerospace workers do. We get to watch our poo poo fly off 35,000 feet across the sky in defiance of God Himself. I dunno. Maybe I just hang with a lot of tradesmen and stagehands, but any time we get together there's going to be at least an hour spent showing people photos of poo poo we built/installed. It feels real good to say "I built that/designed it/had a hand in it", regardless of how you feel about the Protestants. That was why I hated retail so much. Pretty sure I felt better after cleaning up a park on work-release than I did after a day of retail work.
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Dec 1, 2017 10:09
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Beachcomber posted:The scene: ordering some black Friday clothes at 50% off at Eddie Bauer
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Dec 1, 2017 13:41
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I dunno. Maybe I just hang with a lot of tradesmen and stagehands, but any time we get together there's going to be at least an hour spent showing people photos of poo poo we built/installed. It feels real good to say "I built that/designed it/had a hand in it", regardless of how you feel about the Protestants. That was why I hated retail so much. Pretty sure I felt better after cleaning up a park on work-release than I did after a day of retail work. Yea this is a real thing. Back when the recession hit and I lost my retail job I spent awhile doing light construction. Building barns, putting on new roofs, things like that. In retail you can have a very busy day and get a lot of work done but when you come in the next day nothing looks different. It's a weird feeling not seeing any evidence of your work except on a paycheck twice a month. On the job site though you come in each day and there's this big physical proof of what you accomplished the day before staring you in the face and there's a real sense of satisfaction when it all comes together. I can drive down the road and see something that I had a hand in building years ago, that's awesome.
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Dec 1, 2017 14:37
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CFox posted:Yea this is a real thing. Back when the recession hit and I lost my retail job I spent awhile doing light construction. Building barns, putting on new roofs, things like that. In retail you can have a very busy day and get a lot of work done but when you come in the next day nothing looks different. It's a weird feeling not seeing any evidence of your work except on a paycheck twice a month. On the job site though you come in each day and there's this big physical proof of what you accomplished the day before staring you in the face and there's a real sense of satisfaction when it all comes together. I can drive down the road and see something that I had a hand in building years ago, that's awesome. This truly is the best part of working in the trades. I try to treat my team as best an employer can, but honestly being a trade boss is actually kind of lucky because just performing the work brings about a ton of personal satisfaction. Even on balls hard work days the guys almost always wrap up the day in high spirits cause mad poo poo got done and we can look back and see it.
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Dec 1, 2017 15:47
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CFox posted:Yea this is a real thing. Back when the recession hit and I lost my retail job I spent awhile doing light construction. Building barns, putting on new roofs, things like that. In retail you can have a very busy day and get a lot of work done but when you come in the next day nothing looks different. It's a weird feeling not seeing any evidence of your work except on a paycheck twice a month. On the job site though you come in each day and there's this big physical proof of what you accomplished the day before staring you in the face and there's a real sense of satisfaction when it all comes together. I can drive down the road and see something that I had a hand in building years ago, that's awesome. No it's not, because I loved my retail job. I felt a sense of accomplishment in helping customers get what they needed, and enjoyed doing the display work and keeping the store looking good. Maybe it's not something everyone can take pleasure in, but not everyone is going to feel putting a roof on a house is some soul-feeding creative process either. The real problem with retail is the low wages and overall disposable treatment of most people in lower end of the service industry. Pay us more. Value us for the work we actually do and give incentives to stay in it. Pay us more.
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Dec 1, 2017 15:59
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I think this current conversation is a split between "people who live to work" and "people who work to live" and there's nothing inherent about a trade job that makes it more likely to be satisfying.
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Dec 1, 2017 16:03
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WampaLord posted:I think this current conversation is a split between "people who live to work" and "people who work to live" and there's nothing inherent about a trade job that makes it more likely to be satisfying. Not quite sure about this. The product of retail (experience, service) is more ephemeral than "making stuff". A factory is often much more iconic and permanent than retail space. And the product of factories are often used widely, amongst hundreds of thousands or millions of people. Like, my grandfather worked for Ingersoll-Rand, and my dad worked for BASF. The products made by the factories/chemical plants they worked in were widely used and easy to find. Like, knowing that my dad had had a hand, albeit a very minor one, in making the major brand toothpaste that millions of folks used was kinda cool as a kid. I also now live near the former Bethlehem Steel plant. Something like that has a huge cultural legacy. The former workers can say they were part of the legacy that built stuff like the Golden Gate Bridge. The plant itself, although derelict, gutted, and industrially useless, is now a tourist attraction. Ironically, parts of the Bethlehem Steel sites are being used as a casino, and other parts as a site for some mega Amazon/FedEx warehouses. There's much less cultural connection to either of these, and even if the Amazon warehouse workers were paid $20-30/hr, I can't say they'd feel the same price as the steelworkers. It's just passing boxes of stuff made by someone else, on to other folks.
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Dec 1, 2017 16:32
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there wolf posted:No it's not, because I loved my retail job. I felt a sense of accomplishment in helping customers get what they needed, and enjoyed doing the display work and keeping the store looking good. Maybe it's not something everyone can take pleasure in, but not everyone is going to feel putting a roof on a house is some soul-feeding creative process either. I'm not trying to speak for everyone, just my personal experience. I am curious where you worked exactly since I got zero satisfaction selling people the books/music/DVDs that my store specialized in. Maybe if I was selling something more important I'd have felt differently. And it's definitely not a live to work thing. I like my job now since it's interesting and I need to put my brain to work but I put in my 8 hours and I'm out the door. I don't miss it when I'm not there.
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Dec 1, 2017 16:34
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I've worked retail a bunch and found it to be pretty satisfying work when some of the following conditions were met: - feeling safe at the workplace (not fearing injury, robbery, rape, murder) - having cool co-workers who DGAF - having a cool boss who has your back (I had a socialist boss once, that owned) - being able to use knowledge and/or skills to do the job well The last one was a big thing. Having knowledge of inventory, being able to help people find things, being able to recommend stuff to people who asked. When I worked in record stores  it was the best when I got to put a really good record in someone's hands. I've always loved making things and doing projects, but being helpful and having good human connections on the job is worth just as much to me.
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Dec 1, 2017 16:40
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CFox posted:And it's definitely not a live to work thing. I like my job now since it's interesting and I need to put my brain to work but I put in my 8 hours and I'm out the door. I don't miss it when I'm not there. To me, the difference is that in a hypothetical world with a livable UBI, I would literally not work at all, whereas I see a lot of people saying "Oh, no, you have to have work to do or else you'll get bored/lazy/depressed" These people seem to suffer from a lack of imagination (and an amount of Protestant Work Ethic poisoning), because I can think of plenty of stuff I'd do all day long if I didn't have to work.
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Dec 1, 2017 17:00
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LogisticEarth posted:Not quite sure about this. The product of retail (experience, service) is more ephemeral than "making stuff". A factory is often much more iconic and permanent than retail space. And the product of factories are often used widely, amongst hundreds of thousands or millions of people. A factory is also often some completely generic looking building tucked away in the middle of nowhere or just one generic blocky building among dozens of others in the middle of town, which no one but people who actually work there will even notice. And the only thing it makes is some generic widget that could theoretically be used anywhere but you'd never know it.
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Dec 1, 2017 17:16
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There are plenty of retail spaces that are iconic and memorable, it’s just that a lot of them were probably built before WWII.
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Dec 1, 2017 17:56
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Macys bought many of them over the years. I think there was a recent article about how those assets have been keeping them from being screwed right now.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:28
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CFox posted:I'm not trying to speak for everyone, just my personal experience. I am curious where you worked exactly since I got zero satisfaction selling people the books/music/DVDs that my store specialized in. Maybe if I was selling something more important I'd have felt differently. Fabric store, so no. There's probably a personal preference component, but most of it just goes back to Neon Noodles' points and what was said about retail environments in Europe. We were appropriately staffed, the work space was safe and well managed, the boss had out backs against abusive customers or coworkers, and there was enough of a skilled/creative component to keep things interesting. I actually left when that stuff started to slide because the pay was poo poo and it was no longer worth it to put up with the bosses neuroses. Also my dad worked for GM and that plant is the definition of an eye-sore. Can wait till it gets paved over into some mixed-use condos where everyone gets cancer after a few years.
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Dec 1, 2017 20:30
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WampaLord posted:I think this current conversation is a split between "people who live to work" and "people who work to live" and there's nothing inherent about a trade job that makes it more likely to be satisfying. No, my explicit point was that while we need to seriously value the labor and contributions of service workers, one should not go so far as to presume that no one takes pride in their work. This is nothing close to “live to work”. When you’re paid well, when you’re treated well and when you have autonomy you start giving a poo poo. When you aren’t you don’t. fishmech posted:A factory is also often some completely generic looking building tucked away in the middle of nowhere or just one generic blocky building among dozens of others in the middle of town, which no one but people who actually work there will even notice. And the only thing it makes is some generic widget that could theoretically be used anywhere but you'd never know it. Oftentimes these are major employers so if you don’t work there you have a friend or family member who does and every small mom and pop store nearby has a discount for their employees. Everyone knows what goes on in those buildings and had a little more respect for those who work there to refer to them as just “generic widgets”.
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Dec 2, 2017 06:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6wFBCc26I
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Dec 2, 2017 07:14
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Solkanar512 posted:When you’re paid well, when you’re treated well and when you have autonomy you start giving a poo poo. When you aren’t you don’t. This is true all the way down too. The treated well / autonomy is probably the more important part.
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Dec 2, 2017 11:28
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Solkanar512 posted:. I'm not talking some 1954 idealized small town factory I'm talking about the ones I actually grew up near that were nestled in industrial parks mostly next to shipping hubs and bulk storage yards. And there sure as poo poo weren't twee little mom & pop stores giving discounts for Colgate Plant #753 or the factory that just did small runs of custom labeled lab glassware, etc.
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Dec 2, 2017 15:30
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Solkanar512 posted:No, my explicit point was that while we need to seriously value the labor and contributions of service workers, one should not go so far as to presume that no one takes pride in their work. This is nothing close to “live to work”. When you’re paid well, when you’re treated well and when you have autonomy you start giving a poo poo. When you aren’t you don’t. I think this discussion mostly boils down to the fact that our system is abysmally bad at placing people into jobs that they're well suited for and can take pride in. The problem isn't that retail work is inherently bad, it's that it's one of several jobs that act as a kind of employment of last resort. Lots of people working in retail wouldn't be working those jobs if they had any other option, and the presence of a labor pool without better employment options means that employers aren't compelled by labor supply issues to make the job itself more attractive.
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Dec 2, 2017 16:25
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That's a really good point. If retail wasn't seen as a low-wage career with no prospects for actually supporting someone living a stable life, there are a lot of people who would do it happily for their entire career because it suits their personality and work style. As it stands, the only people who work retail are those who have no other options.
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Dec 2, 2017 16:33
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HEY NONG MAN posted:That's a really good point. If retail wasn't seen as a low-wage career with no prospects for actually supporting someone living a stable life, there are a lot of people who would do it happily for their entire career because it suits their personality and work style. As it stands, the only people who work retail are those who have no other options. Yeah. I don't think the trades are inherently more satisfying than retail or whatever, it's that most trade work requires an investment of time and energy to become skilled at and that effort acts as a filter for people who want to do the work. I take a certain amount of pride in my computer touching, but it's not because I think software is some noble calling; it's because I'm doing something that suits me and that I actually want to do.
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Dec 2, 2017 16:46
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HEY NONG MAN posted:That's a really good point. If retail wasn't seen as a low-wage career with no prospects for actually supporting someone living a stable life, there are a lot of people who would do it happily for their entire career because it suits their personality and work style. As it stands, the only people who work retail are those who have no other options. It actually isn't a horrible job at the high end. It isn't even a bad job if you work at one of the stores like Costco or whatever that pay their employees a good wage and reward them for doing their jobs properly. Even Walmart and Target recognized they needed to raise their wages, but a lot of chains are still dragging their feet. I know a lot of retail lifers that like their job, or knew how to do it well and go home. They're almost all over 40-50 and in full-time positions, having joined the company when the wages were competitive and full-time was actually a thing. Everyone that doesn't have seniority hates it, and it isn't the job itself. It's usually because of clueless management and a lack of compensation. Your hours fluctuate every week, but you're expected to maintain an open schedule. You're not even enough hours or pay to get by, but you're also forbidden from working at any other retail location that sells what your store sells. I would work my rear end off in a retail position that paid me 10+ dollars an hour and provided steady hours / decent benefits.
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Dec 2, 2017 17:09
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah. I don't think the trades are inherently more satisfying than retail or whatever, it's that most trade work requires an investment of time and energy to become skilled at and that effort acts as a filter for people who want to do the work. I take a certain amount of pride in my computer touching, but it's not because I think software is some noble calling; it's because I'm doing something that suits me and that I actually want to do. I cut meat. I process a primal to get the most I can out of it, portioning out various cuts (thin, thick, stew meat, etc.) There was a certain joy in taking a raw hunk of flesh and transforming it into something a person would want to buy and eat. Now, however, we switched to pre-pack and the only thing we cut now are strip, ribeye and tenderloin. The rest of it is cut further up the line by a machine (though we're assured that bone-in stuff is still hand processed, but if it is it's just a matter of time.) I work in the cold, every day. The metal glove I wear to protect my hand starts to hurt after an hour. The cases of primals are heavy and at the end of the day my back is killing me. I hate this, and I want out, and I feel that automation is forcing me out anyway. I just don't know where to go. e: I get a raise every year, but it's 1-2%. All of my co-workers are maxed and haven't seen an increase in at least 5 years, if not more.
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Dec 2, 2017 17:22
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I would work my rear end off in a retail position that paid me 10+ dollars an hour and provided steady hours / decent benefits. Where do you live? Here in Colorado that's still a pretty poo poo income, so I'm curious. In re: service vs trade I think pursuing a trade out of High school would have put me in a better spot than I am now. I have management and cooking experience in a fast/casual restaurant and now that I'm looking elsewhere, it's a pain because I have to constantly write about how I can translate those skills to X job. Whereas I see these spots for tradesmen that just require you either have some experience (year+) or a specific license. Heck, even a CDL is worth more than my 5 years of customer service and management. Because it's verifiable instead of just word of mouth.
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Dec 2, 2017 19:02
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Rural VA. Ten or twelve dollars is plenty to get by on down here, especially in the larger cities where housing is cheaper- if you have the hours. But I should explain that when I say "decent benefits", I also mean an OK health plan ( one you can afford ) and paid sick leave, because illness or injury will screw you over faster than anything else. I caught pneumonia while working my last job, and I was sick for a month. Just a random, unpreventable illness that could have ruined my life if I was living paycheck to paycheck all on my own.
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Dec 2, 2017 19:32
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That makes sense, because I was wondering about that too. Here in CT you can easily find retail jobs that pay above $10/hour and that will even get you somewhat reliable hours, but you're still going to be flat broke all the time if you're working 35-40 hours/week on something like $11/hour.
Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Dec 2, 2017 |
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Dec 2, 2017 19:39
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fishmech posted:I'm not talking some 1954 idealized small town factory I'm talking about the ones I actually grew up near that were nestled in industrial parks mostly next to shipping hubs and bulk storage yards. And there sure as poo poo weren't twee little mom & pop stores giving discounts for Colgate Plant #753 or the factory that just did small runs of custom labeled lab glassware, etc. Do you even have a clue about the specific factory I’ve been taking for the past few posts? Don’t cheat and read Wikipedia thinking it’s the same as growing up in that area or even working there for several years. Please, tell me all about it! Look, if you’re going to call me a liar then come out and say so but you’re going to have to explain to me why my own life experiences are somehow wrong just because you’ve decided so. Also, you might want to call my landlord, I have a small discount on my rent because of who my employer is. And again, it’s loving insulting to workers to imply that their labor is somehow so worthless as it’s existence is below being noticed by the surrounding community. Being a computer toucher doesn’t make you special.
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Dec 2, 2017 19:44
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Solkanar512 posted:Do you even have a clue about the specific factory I’ve been taking for the past few posts? Don’t cheat and read Wikipedia thinking it’s the same as growing up in that area or even working there for several years. Please, tell me all about it! In the town I grew up in, the Kimberly Clark factories were a big thing(especially since it was where the whole company started). There were also tiny factories that just kind of existed and nobody really thought about. It didn't mean their labor & whatever they were making with it was worthless, but you can't expect a community to actively acknowledge every single form of labor happening in it. At least not to the level of "everyone knows what goes on in those buildings and mom n' pop stores have discounts just for working in them". Maybe I'm jaded because I'm in a line of work where the people I'm helping generally don't even realize I exist(medical lab person), but lots of people won't give a second thought to labor going on right under their noses if they don't see it & don't know anyone who does it. Again, it doesn't make that labor worthless, it's just a function of how people's attention works. The more visible something is, the more likely people are to notice and acknowledge it.
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Dec 2, 2017 20:17
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Solkanar512 posted:Do you even have a clue about the specific factory I’ve been taking for the past few posts? Don’t cheat and read Wikipedia thinking it’s the same as growing up in that area or even working there for several years. Please, tell me all about it! No I have no clue about whatever no name factory was soooo important to your town and that's rather the point. And I will never care about the factory nor will most of the country, hell even most of the people where you are probably don't care. If you believe your life experiences of a town worshiping the factory are at all relevant to what most manufacturing labor identified with or believed or experienced, you're wrong. But it's interesting that you read all this as saying the work is worthless, seems like you've got some kind of hosed up identity issues where the dignity of labor relies on other people caring about some specific factory somewhere. The dignity of labor is already present. Haifisch posted:Maybe some factories are more of a pillar of the community than others? This sort of thing, exactly.
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Dec 2, 2017 22:33
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i work in an rear end in a top hat factory pumping out the poo
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Dec 3, 2017 00:19
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WampaLord posted:To me, the difference is that in a hypothetical world with a livable UBI, I would literally not work at all, whereas I see a lot of people saying "Oh, no, you have to have work to do or else you'll get bored/lazy/depressed" What would you do, then? Like, I myself can't enjoy things that are totally non-productive, at least for very long. And in fact, when I do enjoy things that are totally passive, its only because I've had to work and need a break. I mean, even things like taking photographs, cooking, making charts and graphs, reading, writing...those are all "productive" things, and if I had more time, I would probably be more "productive" with them (I would cook more and invent new recipes, which I would then share). I mean, other than video games, I can't enjoy myself for long if I am not working.
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Dec 3, 2017 01:36
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I thought that the point of UBI was that people could be choosier about the work they pursue, since you'd still want to buy nice things once you get survival things. Is there some consensus on how much UBI should pay for?
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Dec 3, 2017 01:46
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If there was UBI I'd probably open up a little workshop making laser-cut model kits and what ever people want laser cut. I could potentially do this now but it's way too risky to try to start a business with no safety net and it probably wouldn't pay as much as my current job. I like making things, specially things other people appreciate or find useful.
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Dec 3, 2017 01:58
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Unbelievably White posted:I thought that the point of UBI was that people could be choosier about the work they pursue, since you'd still want to buy nice things once you get survival things. Is there some consensus on how much UBI should pay for? I always assumed UBI would give you a disappointingly small income, like whatever you’d make from working for minimum wage for 40 hours a week. Ideally, though, you’d be making enough off of it to not have to live paycheck to paycheck.
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Dec 3, 2017 02:04
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Baronjutter posted:I like making things, specially things other people appreciate or find useful. I too would build custom dildos e: Not funny enough to stand on its own, but yeah. I don't feel good at the end of the day unless I've produced something, be that something at work or some creative project on my days off. Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Dec 3, 2017 |
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Dec 3, 2017 02:04
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fishmech posted:No I have no clue about whatever no name factory was soooo important to your town and that's rather the point. And I will never care about the factory nor will most of the country, hell even most of the people where you are probably don't care. 
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Dec 3, 2017 02:32
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