|
AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Is there a good, safe way to short Bitcoin? Or does it still involve going through shady bitcoin exchanges? Even if there was a good way to short butts (and I'm not sure there is) you definitely shouldn't. Very much a 'the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent' situation.
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2017 17:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:51 |
|
|
In what sense is the "value" of BTC even a real use of the term value?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2017 17:15
|
|
|
Neon Noodle posted:In what sense is the "value" of BTC even a real use of the term value? In the same sense as stock prices are "value".
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
Feinne posted:Even if there was a good way to short butts (and I'm not sure there is) you definitely shouldn't. Very much a 'the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent' situation. But I guess the risk is limited to the money you put into it. No?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2017 18:37
|
|
|
AndreTheGiantBoned posted:But I guess the risk is limited to the money you put into it. No? You have unlimited downside in a short sale
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2017 18:38
|
|
|
AndreTheGiantBoned posted:But I guess the risk is limited to the money you put into it. No?
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2017 18:41
|
|
|
Time posted:You have unlimited downside in a short sale Yeah for those who haven't thought it through, just consider: You want to short bitcoins. So essentially, you want someone to loan you their bitcoins, which you will immediately liquidate. Then, at some future date, you will return those bitcoins. If the price of a bitcoin has dropped by the time you return them, you have made money. If it has gone up, you lose money. But since the amount it can go down is, at most, to nothing whereas the amount it can go up is theoretically unbounded it's possible to lose WAY more money than you put in.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2017 23:39
|
|
|
fishmech posted:In the same sense as stock prices are "value". not even that, considering it's a weighted average of exchange prices, based on numbers with literally hundreds of dollars of spread. also, "market cap" means something in stocks, it's pure marketing BS for cryptos. sorry, I actually get money from proper business people as a Noted Expert(tm) on Blockchain(tm) now, my next book will be Bride of the 50 Foot Blockchain, which is also a title my wife has taken for herself, conclusively sick of my poo poo but putting up with it while the money rains from the skies and in conclusion, BUY BITCOIN
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 02:03
|
|
Could we get in on the ground floor with something a bit more subtle than buttcoin? Is there a Tulipcoin yet?Sage Grimm posted:Better yet, this is where Marissa Mayer (former Yahoo CEO) ended up! Good eye, I missed that the first time! Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Dec 2, 2017 |
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 02:36
|
|
|
sorry, accidental double post
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 02:39
|
|
|
divabot posted:not even that, considering it's a weighted average of exchange prices, based on numbers with literally hundreds of dollars of spread. lol please tell me you're on the Finance speaker circuit welfare train
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 03:52
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Could we get in on the ground floor with something a bit more subtle than buttcoin? Is there a Tulipcoin yet? There are thousands of coins out there and new ones being created every day that go up 7x-10x or more. Although a lot of them go bust. So yeah you can get in on the ground floor. That's actually a better investment opportunity than bitcoin in percentage of growth.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 05:13
|
|
|
Squalid posted:lol please tell me you're on the Finance speaker circuit welfare train not yet!!
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 09:52
|
|
|
I've been following the thread on how difficult it is to buy and sell bitcoins and I was reminded of this: https://bittimaatti.fi/?&lang=en. It's a Finnish company with bitcoin ATMs where you can buy and sell bitcoins immediately (or so they claim at least). There's also a long list of companies accepting bitcoins as a payment here including a couple of grocery stores, a law firm, a renovation company and a pub. The legal and tax situations are probably very different than in the States but still reading the thread this shouldn't be possible without shady meetings in a parking hall at all. I've no illusion about bitcoin being a viable currency etc but I'm just wondering how are these people managing to do this?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 10:35
|
|
|
One possible explanation is that those business are in a sense buying (or "bartering for") bitcoins with their goods/services, and probably want to hold onto them. Alternatively, I dunno what volume of payments those businesses receive in bitcoins but maybe it's low enough as to be reasonably easy to cash out and the extra hassle is worth it for the "hey guys, we accept bitcoins!" publicity.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 10:44
|
|
|
It’s also possible the “ATMs” don’t actually work and the businesses tried once to accept Bitcoin, had a colossal failure when one person in a year tried to use it, and were just never taken off a list of “businesses accepting Bitcoin” because the kind of fraudsters who promote Bitcoin aren’t above inflating their figures. You know, going on how Bitcoin ATMs and businesses accepting Bitcoin have worked out for the past 8 years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 10:51
|
|
|
nah, there exist 3rd party providers e.g., bitpay which essentially offer liquidity for a hefty transaction fee.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 11:17
|
|
|
shrike82 posted:nah, there exist 3rd party providers e.g., bitpay which essentially offer liquidity for a hefty transaction fee. Checked one of the webstores on the list (a legit business selling flashlights) and they're accepting bitcoins through bitpay so this is probably how it works. The volumes must be low since it would make little sense to run a business on bitcoins considering you have to pay for taxes, salaries etc in euros. If you want to hold on to them it makes more sense. I remember there being a burger place close to 8 years ago where you could pay with bitcoins but it was owned by some true believer libertarian so likely something similar is going on. I'd guess the ATMs work but they seem to have only 5000 euros in them and that's a bit more than half a bitcoin currently. They also seem to be run by some cryptocurrency investment startup looking for investors so it's most likely a marketing thing. Still it seems like I could relatively easily get 20 000+ euros in cash for my imaginary bitcoins if I'm willing to travel a bit but the idea I got from the thread was that this should be really difficult.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 12:00
|
|
|
NothingMatters posted:There are thousands of coins out there and new ones being created every day that go up 7x-10x or more. Although a lot of them go bust. that's a funny way of spelling "gamble"
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 13:00
|
|
|
Yeah if one legitimately was looking to offload 20000 worth of bitcoin flying to finland and clearing out every one of those bitcoin ATMs might legitimately be your best bet (assuming that they actually work which, as mentioned, has not historically always been the case with bitcoin ATMs) if you're willing to look like you're participating in some bizarre finnish organized crime but the thing is only one person would be able to do that before the company was like "WOAH we didn't expect that to actually happen, we're shutting those ATMs down."
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 13:06
|
|
|
Generally with Bitcoin to cash transactions if there aren't up-front limitations and it's not a scam the person offering it isn't ready for a bank run. It's telling that they have a daily purchase limit but not a daily sales limit; the only reason someone would presumably guard against running out of Bitcoin but not out of cash is because they don't believe anyone would want to get rid of all their Bitcoin at once.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 13:23
|
|
|
reignonyourparade posted:the thing is only one person would be able to do that for about a week before the company was like "WOAH we didn't expect that to actually happen, we're shutting those ATMs down."
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
Havana Affair posted:Still it seems like I could relatively easily get 20 000+ euros in cash for my imaginary bitcoins if I'm willing to travel a bit but the idea I got from the thread was that this should be really difficult. having to travel some long distance to reach a gimmick atm which will probably fail to give you money counts as difficult, i would think
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 20:59
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:having to travel some long distance to reach a gimmick atm which will probably fail to give you money counts as difficult, i would think I guess I failed to mention I live 20 minutes from the nearest one. I was just wondering how they make it sound so easy since the view I got from the thread is that it should be anything but. They've been running these things since 2014 so they must be getting some kind of use. I've no idea if they actually work or not and no way of testing it. Also not suggesting no one has thought of a bitcoin ATM before.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 21:29
|
|
|
Weatherman posted:that's a funny way of spelling "gamble" All investment opportunities are gambles. That's the very nature of investing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
Havana Affair posted:I guess I failed to mention I live 20 minutes from the nearest one. I was just wondering how they make it sound so easy since the view I got from the thread is that it should be anything but. They've been running these things since 2014 so they must be getting some kind of use. I've no idea if they actually work or not and no way of testing it. Also not suggesting no one has thought of a bitcoin ATM before. Almost every single bitcoin ATM that exists in the wild is one way cash to bitcoin. They rarely go the other way, and when they do the limits are very low. So I guess if you really want to unload your bitcoin, you do it by setting up a bitcoin ATM that only goes cash to bitcoin.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
reignonyourparade posted:Yeah if one legitimately was looking to offload 20000 worth of bitcoin flying to finland and clearing out every one of those bitcoin ATMs might legitimately be your best bet (assuming that they actually work which, as mentioned, has not historically always been the case with bitcoin ATMs) if you're willing to look like you're participating in some bizarre finnish organized crime but the thing is only one person would be able to do that before the company was like "WOAH we didn't expect that to actually happen, we're shutting those ATMs down." That's easy, just leave your machete at home and everyone will know you're not a Finn.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:That's easy, just leave your machete at home and everyone will know you're not a Finn. Terrible advice definitely bring a machete to any situation where you might encounter someone connected to bitcoins and will potentially have twenty large on your person.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
The strangest thing about the bitcoin bubble is that the utility of bitcoin shouldn't really depend on the price of bitcoins themselves. Using bitcoin as a universal anonymous meta-currency would work at any exchange rate.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 22:27
|
|
ShadowHawk posted:The strangest thing about the bitcoin bubble is that the utility of bitcoin shouldn't really depend on the price of bitcoins themselves. Using bitcoin as a universal anonymous meta-currency would work at any exchange rate. The actual utility of bitcoin to 90% of bitcoin boosters is the chance to amass a precious hoard that will elevate them above the plebs who still use filthy fiat. If you know this, related mysteries like why people are adamant about the currency staying deflationary, why anyone would want the transfer limit to stay less than 1% of 1% of Visa's before running at the speed of concrete, and why ponzi schemes are more popular than regulations to stop them make a lot more sense.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 23:48
|
|
|
Tuxedo Gin posted:Almost every single bitcoin ATM that exists in the wild is one way cash to bitcoin. They rarely go the other way, and when they do the limits are very low. So I guess if you really want to unload your bitcoin, you do it by setting up a bitcoin ATM that only goes cash to bitcoin. Yeah, I looked up if the one I knew of in the neighborhood (it's gone now) and I was suprised to learn that it was a two-way ATM. Here it is, with the 2 people that used the machine (and it's predecessor) in the years it existed: 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 23:50
|
|
|
shrike82 posted:nah, there exist 3rd party providers e.g., bitpay which essentially offer liquidity for a hefty transaction fee. Ah yes, the one that many think could be some sort of money laundering front because it’s entirely unclear where the actual dollars they’re immediately translating Bitcoin payments into actually come from.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:19
|
|
|
eschaton posted:Ah yes, the one that many think could be some sort of money laundering front because it’s entirely unclear where the actual dollars they’re immediately translating Bitcoin payments into actually come from. What's wrong with laundering money?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:22
|
|
|
Havana Affair posted:They've been running these things since 2014 so they must be getting some kind of use. Not really. It just means someone has been willing to host one for that long. Doesn’t even mean the server it transacts with is even still online, or that there’s any cash in it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:22
|
|
|
Ignatius M. Meen posted:The actual utility of bitcoin to 90% of bitcoin boosters is the chance to amass a precious hoard that will elevate them above the plebs who still use filthy fiat. If you know this, related mysteries like why people are adamant about the currency staying deflationary, why anyone would want the transfer limit to stay less than 1% of 1% of Visa's before running at the speed of concrete, and why ponzi schemes are more popular than regulations to stop them make a lot more sense. yeah. all the people i know irl who are enthusiastic about bitcoin are also anti-government hyper capitalist get rich quick types who are typically trying to figure some scheme to get money (not make money) and losing their shirts in the process. the kind of guys who fashion themselves poker and sports betting kingpins but make all their cash selling weed to high schoolers
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:31
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:yeah. all the people i know irl who are enthusiastic about bitcoin are also anti-government hyper capitalist get rich quick types who are typically trying to figure some scheme to get money (not make money) and losing their shirts in the process. the kind of guys who fashion themselves poker and sports betting kingpins but make all their cash selling weed to high schoolers I'm into bitcoin and yeah I want to make it rich. Only because I've accepted America is a cesspool where I will never ever be able to achieve anything because of the color of my skin unless I'm rich. When you have a system around you that uses and abuses you at every opportunity you have to figure out how to abuse and use the system to survive. It's that simple. And If It means taking some white capitalist boujie's poo poo and leaving them destitute I don't give a gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:39
|
|
|
pretending to be black online in order to vacantly boost your ponzi scheme is an angle i haven't seen before so that's neat personally as a vegan latina i dont see the point
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:48
|
|
|
far be it from me to deny you that pleasure, but might i suggest venture capitalism pitches as a faster and safer method of stealing rich assholes' shirts? there are lots of ways to lose the shirt you just stole off someone else in bitcoin after all e: this obviously applies regardless of the fact you're actually a rereg of a white poster, there is no shame in being unemployed and poor dude Ignatius M. Meen fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Dec 3, 2017 |
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:50
|
|
|
just loving migrate already holy poo poo. if you're a person of colour and you have the means, you need to leave america. it is not the best place in the world. it is far from the best place in the world. your life won't end if you leave, you'll find a better life elsewhere and an actual future for you and your family that doesn't involve bitcoin or any of its loving stupid ilk. america is on a one-way road to hell and things are only going to get worse for you, not better, especially if you blow your small amount of actual money that can buy things on an even smaller amount of false money that can't buy anything.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 02:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:51 |
|
|
AndreTheGiantBoned posted:But I guess the risk is limited to the money you put into it. No? If you don't know how a short works you shouldn't consider shorting anything.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 03:18
|
|
