|
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/02/17/why-is-harry-reid-always-voting-against-his-own-plans/?utm_term=.cf4cb99a7cdc Associated article in the comments for that tweet, asserting it’s a real thing.
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 23:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 13:09 |
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/02/17/why-is-harry-reid-always-voting-against-his-own-plans/?utm_term=.cf4cb99a7cdc hahaha your government's arcane procedural rules own 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2017 23:58
|
|
|
botany posted:hahaha your government's arcane procedural rules own  Anyhow that actually seems legitimate to me. Can’t explain Warner tho.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:00
|
|
|
Not a Step posted:The Dems never really wanted to pass effective health care, or do anything not approved by the fantastically wealthy donor class that supports them, so they never really fought that hard. Likewise Obama wanted to be the Decorum President so he never really used the tools available to him either, like recess appointments or bullying his party into compliance (or doing much of anything for his party except looting it for his consultant buddies). That was the most frustrating part about the early years of the administration: Obama chose Rahm as his chief of staff because Rahm was known for stopping just short of beating the poo poo out of people in order to get them to vote the right way, and instead he was completely muzzled.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:
no i actually have a kind of begrudging respect for the whole system! every single rules makes some amount of sense, it's just that taken together they form a rat king of weirdly interacting arcana that takes a specially trained scholar to interpret. it's very... you 
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Warner is trash and I hope he gets primaried so I don't have to vote for him.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Obama volunteer and owner of marijuana stores defeats incumbent in a county that went 60/40 Trump and instituted restrictions on marijuana after Washington state legalized it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:08
|
|
|
SalTheBard posted:Good loving God these answers are worse than I thought. I Always liked the 60 vote because unlike the House it gave the majority party some incentive to work with the minority party. It's pretty loving lovely to do away with it and just change rules on the fly. Reconciliation has been in the rules of Congress since the 70s, it's just that since everything is stupidly hyperpartisan today and narrowly split that Republicans have been forced to use it to get their poo poo in because there's no way else to meet their promises to their donors. The basic idea of budget reconciliation isn't the worst, it's supposed to allow for quick temporary fixes to budget financing. Every lovely thing theyre doing is forced to expire after 10 years and can't be made permanent without 60 votes (barring elimination of the filibuster).
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:27
|
|
|
bird food bathtub posted:So this is where the country is huh? Scribble poo poo in crayon on a sheet of paper and call it fiscal policy for the nation. Carve out exceptions for one specific university in the entire nation then yell at the other team about picking winners and losers. Pass poo poo in the dead of the night then yell about the other guys, well, passing poo poo in the dead of the night after multiple years of the amendment process. I'm pretty much in total agreement with this now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 00:55
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:
warner's still hornt up for simpson-bowles
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:28
|
|
|
Radish posted:Frankly the Democrats have clearly been punished by voters for playing nice with the Republicans (just like the Republicans would be) but they can't see that through their haze of idiocy. The only time I can recall that there’s been a genuine effort to play nice on a major piece of legislation, it was the Grand Bargain in 2011, which, mercifully, failed. There also was a nascent attempt to stabilize the healthcare market earlier this year, but I doubt that anyone aside from real political junkies followed that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:36
|
|
|
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/12/02/poll_democratic_candidate_gains_slight_edge_over_moore_in_alabama_senate.html Ignore the headline, the article goes into greater depth about polling averages and opinions of voters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:42
|
|
|
Democrazy posted:The only time I can recall that there’s been a genuine effort to play nice on a major piece of legislation, it was the Grand Bargain in 2011, which, mercifully, failed. also "let's keep the government limping along" budget junk, but yeah; also the bipartisan healthcare thing was mostly genuinely good*, so I'm sad it got deep-sixed by McConnell and friends and in something that might be plot-relevant in the immediate future, what killed the Grand Bargain was the House Freedom Caucus rejecting it as not evil enough
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 01:56
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:
They were working against Obama though. I'm not sure the same dynamic is in effect when it is their big donors breathing down their necks and has no association with the Kenyan usurper.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 04:05
|
|
|
MooselanderII posted:They were working against Obama though. I'm not sure the same dynamic is in effect when it is their big donors breathing down their necks and has no association with the Kenyan usurper. The trillion dollar question is, are the HFC true believers, and how far will they take it if they are?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 05:07
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:The trillion dollar question is, are the HFC true believers, and how far will they take it if they are? Probably yes, and nobody knows. Including McConnell, Ryan, and perhaps even Ted "Soup-Fed Sack of Wasps" Cruz.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 05:09
|
|
|
Timby posted:That was the most frustrating part about the early years of the administration: Obama chose Rahm as his chief of staff because Rahm was known for stopping just short of beating the poo poo out of people in order to get them to vote the right way, and instead he was completely muzzled. The whole Rahm thing was a classic category problem of tone vs. substance. I'm sure Rahm would have been a fierce pitbull in favour of healthcare for as many people as possible for as cheaply as possible if he or the administration actually believed in that, but his post-WH career has conclusively shown that he's your bog standard authoritarian neoliberal type.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 08:21
|
|
|
SulphagneSocialist posted:The whole Rahm thing was a classic category problem of tone vs. substance. I'm sure Rahm would have been a fierce pitbull in favour of healthcare for as many people as possible for as cheaply as possible if he or the administration actually believed in that, but his post-WH career has conclusively shown that he's your bog standard authoritarian neoliberal type. He's a huge POS: https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...m=.5d5d7f5529a6
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 08:43
|
|
|
I wouldn't say he is bog standard, but actually a straight up authoritarian. (There is no way Rahm would have fought for UHS btw). As far as the tax cuts go, I think there is going to almost certainly be a push for another "grand bargain" in the future. While our deficit under Obama was roughly sustainable, but it has been creeping up and could start inching up to around 4%. The tax cuts are only going to push it higher, and this is during a period of high growth. What happens during a recession? I could see us easily being thrown back to 2009-2011 "deficit hysteria." Granted, the issue is on the other hand, much of the Federal government is already a wreck which leaves the last major target to be Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid. Granted, it also leaves me even more pessimistic about the future of the US.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 12:12
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:I wouldn't say he is bog standard, but actually a straight up authoritarian. (There is no way Rahm would have fought for UHS btw). i started to type out a long post but i think i maybe misunderstood your point -- you're worried about the political impact of the deficit/GDP ratio, not about the actual "sustainability" itself, correct?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 12:22
|
|
|
botany posted:i started to type out a long post but i think i maybe misunderstood your point -- you're worried about the political impact of the deficit/GDP ratio, not about the actual "sustainability" itself, correct? Yes, I actually don't think the deficit matters so much on its own, but rather the political repercussions on the population. Simply put, I get the feeling the American public is going to be hit with austerity measures regardless of what happens with Trump or the next election. Also, there is the open issue if the damage happening to civilian departments will ever actually be fixed or if the federal government may actually just turn into a shell of itself beyond the DOD. Let's say there is a "best case" scenario, and that Trump is impeached and the Democrats get back the Senate (I still don't think the House is in play). What then? Continuing resolutions are always about horse-trading, and the House is going to do its best to keep the damage done under Trump while the Democrats are unlikely to get any major measures through. At the same time, eventually a recession is going to happen and that is going to add political weight to what is already a probably a sizable growing deficit (and also the middle-class tax cuts expire in 2025). Economically this would be expected, but I am talking about the Beltway dimension. Basically, the "natural course of action" will be for the Democrats to be 'reasonable" and accept a compromise for the good of the nation. Most likely, middle-class tax cuts will be extended with some tweaks to the tax code in exchange for drastic cuts to social programs/civilian spending. The public will be told there is no choice (with some scary graphs), and we will essentially be hosed. Granted, the GOP could screw itself like last time, but that is basically our only real hope. This may seem like a "conspiracy theory" but the poo poo literally happened a couple years ago, just that this time we know (or should know...) how little we should actually trust both sides. I would be more optimistic if anything if a left-wing .... "unreasonable" candidate had a shot at the Democratic nomination, but I think the DNC has it locked up at this point and even then they would take a tremendous amount of poo poo for "destroying our budget with socialism" during a period of heightening deficits. We may be truly stuck in a downward spiral and it isn't that slow of one. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Dec 3, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 12:43
|
|
|
botany posted:i started to type out a long post but i think i maybe misunderstood your point -- you're worried about the political impact of the deficit/GDP ratio, not about the actual "sustainability" itself, correct? The actual sustainability of the deficit is something worth worrying about. Not like the way the Republicans do, but its not a non issue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 14:14
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:The actual sustainability of the deficit is something worth worrying about. Not like the way the Republicans do, but its not a non issue. Eh, the US still has ways to go before it really becomes an issue, I think the reaction to the deficit is far more dangerous than the deficit itself. That said, we may be forced into such a disastrous position they will have the leeway to basically gut everything except the military and interest payments, but that only has decades of hard work to basically force the country into a weakened position in order to do that. Also, as far as geopolitics goes, it is going to be a disaster for us since our influence on the world expands beyond just a military and if anything our massive conventional military is at risk of becoming a bit of a white elephant. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Dec 3, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 14:29
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:The actual sustainability of the deficit is something worth worrying about. Not like the way the Republicans do, but its not a non issue. in your opinion, what is the problem? what makes a deficit potentially unsustainable?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 14:33
|
|
|
I think this tax cut will be a redefining moment the same way the new deal was. Short of a full communist dictatorship I cannot invasion a way to turn this around. Which is really to say I cannot see a way to turn this around. America is about to enter an age I don’t think most citizens can imagine. Even we’ll off upper middle class families are about to get crushed once the cuts eventually come for social security and Medicare. If your anything below that you are about to be turned into pulp. These white supremest groups are really going to take off. God help us when a competent fascist takes power.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 14:46
|
|
|
Xeom posted:I think this tax cut will be a redefining moment the same way the new deal was. Short of a full communist dictatorship I cannot invasion a way to turn this around. Which is really to say I cannot see a way to turn this around. Yeah, I don't see how the forces that led to Trump are going away, hell if anything they will intensify more than before even if Trump himself is disgraced. Trump wasn't an accident but the product of a system already wearing down its gears and now Congress is going to stomp on the peddle. Upper-middle-class families will probably still muddle through (although they will gripe about it), but yeah it is only going to get worse. I mean accelerationism is coming if you like it or not, the only choice at this point is fight or flight. (Also, I am pretty pessimistic about any chance of honest reform since this point forward the deficit is going to be a cudgel to beat back any change. I think the US public is honestly loving trapped.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 14:56
|
|
|
We need a Socialist movement if we want to stop the fascist one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 14:59
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:We need a Socialist movement if we want to stop the fascist one. Counterpoint: the increased taxes will put further hardships on struggling households with an annual income of 200k-500k USD. We wouldn't want a crab-bucket mentality, now would we?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 15:07
|
|
|
Nosfereefer posted:Counterpoint: the increased taxes will put further hardships on struggling households with an annual income of 200k-500k USD. We wouldn't want a crab-bucket mentality, now would we? Such problems can be solved via application to Madame Guillotine
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 15:10
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:We need a Socialist movement if we want to stop the fascist one. I’m just not seeing it. Americans will choose hate over cooperation each and every day. For me personally the fight is over. The question is how fast do I have to get out, and where do I flee too? What society is literally not teetering at the edge?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 15:10
|
|
|
Xeom posted:For me personally the fight is over. The question is how fast do I have to get out, and where do I flee too? What society is literally not teetering at the edge? I have bad news for you, friend
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 15:22
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:We need a Socialist movement if we want to stop the fascist one. At this point, it might be better to say we "needed one", I don't know if the really bad stuff coming can honestly be stopped. The people have power if they are united, but every institution is America at this point is working as hard as they can to keep them divided. We may be at this point where the system finally "won." Xeom posted:For me personally the fight is over. The question is how fast do I have to get out, and where do I flee too? What society is literally not teetering at the edge? It is hard to give personal recommendations, but there are choices out there although they usually come with compromises. It also depends on if you know other languages besides English. That said, if a teenager/someone in the early 20s, asked me what to do. It has been said before, but I would say find some place that still has a demand for English teachers and then work from there. I know by speaking with expats can do quite well in some places and have a middle-class lifestyle with a reasonable amount of effort. English teaching abroad is held in disgust in SA, but at some point, you have to go beyond the taboos of an internet forum. At very least English teaching would allow you enough time and money to maybe work on a second career or develop your own personal clientele of students in that country. (Admittedly, I do think it still helps to have a US 4 year degree, if it can be done reasonably cheaply.) Obviously, not everyone can do that, but if you can...it is certainly time to start looking (and no you are not a traitor or a coward.) Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Dec 3, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 15:28
|
|
|
Xeom posted:I’m just not seeing it. Americans will choose hate over cooperation each and every day. Well, two points. First is there is nowhere else to run to for most of us, so just like we must believe sisyphus is happy, we must believe revolution is possible. Second is that in the past year, since the election, left wing activism has been astonishingly successful, all things considered. Now is a really weird time to get defeatist, considering the Republicans are literally in the process of branding themselves as the Pedophile Traitor Party.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 15:49
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:We need a Socialist movement if we want to stop the fascist one. I honestly think an anarchist movement would have a better chance at galvanizing Americans. At the very least it's a better fit for the idealized American identity.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 17:17
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yes, I actually don't think the deficit matters so much on its own, but rather the political repercussions on the population. Simply put, I get the feeling the American public is going to be hit with austerity measures regardless of what happens with Trump or the next election. Also, there is the open issue if the damage happening to civilian departments will ever actually be fixed or if the federal government may actually just turn into a shell of itself beyond the DOD. Out of curiosity, what middle class tax cuts are you referring to?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 17:25
|
|
|
MooselanderII posted:Out of curiosity, what middle class tax cuts are you referring to? As apart of the Senate bill, there are middle-class tax cuts, but for "for the math to work" they sunset in 2025. Which means in 7-8 years they immediately become another political football (while the corporate tax cuts and other changes are permanent.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 17:31
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:As apart of the Senate bill, there are middle-class tax cuts, but for "for the math to work" they sunset in 2025. Which means in 7-8 years they immediately become another political football (while the corporate tax cuts and other changes are permanent.) What are they? I thought itemizing middle class people are hosed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 17:37
|
|
|
MizPiz posted:I honestly think an anarchist movement would have a better chance at galvanizing Americans. At the very least it's a better fit for the idealized American identity. Anarchism will never be popular in the US today the way it sort of almost was a century ago, Americans are too comfortable as a whole to want to do that and the “burn it all down” crowd trends heavily fascist. Socialist movements were always going to play out differently in the States versus Europe because race is the major division rather than nationality. We should be looking to socialist movements in places like Africa that sought to forge alliances across disparate and historically at odds ethnic groups for successes and failures.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 18:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 13:09 |
|
|
MizPiz posted:I honestly think an anarchist movement would have a better chance at galvanizing Americans. At the very least it's a better fit for the idealized American identity. You know most anarchists are socialists right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2017 18:14
|
|