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rudatron posted:But consistently running government deficits is still a bad thing, because it's has to eventually be paid back. The common retort of too many on the left is that you 'pay it back' through inflation, but that has three effects: a) bond buyers will simply refuse to finance your debt, if their return is outweighed by inflation b) the market value of the bond will decrease, meaning the interest rate on government debt will increase c) finance will engage in a program of political manipulation and democratic subversion, so that the government is never allowed to default on or inflate away its debt, and ensure that they get their pound of flesh before everyone else (see: Greece). One quibble with an otherwise good post. Although the US has done some dumb things, we've never signed away our monetary sovereignty to foreign powers as the Greeks have. The sort of debt deflation ratchet they faced (and are just now coming out of, nine years later) is something that can't happen here. We'd be more likely to go the Argentine route if it came to it.
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Dec 3, 2017 15:50
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Agronox posted:One quibble with an otherwise good post. Although the US has done some dumb things, we've never signed away our monetary sovereignty to foreign powers as the Greeks have. The sort of debt deflation ratchet they faced (and are just now coming out of, nine years later) is something that can't happen here. Greece was screwed because they bought into the Euro concept. Also if you are nation state like the US which can virtually free loan money, it makes sense to run the yearly budget at a deficit.
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Dec 3, 2017 15:52
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The US government has been totally bought out by moneyed interests, you're nuts if you think they'd ever let a default happen.
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Dec 3, 2017 15:53
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theoretically debt spending is good when you use it to finance things that will expand the economy- such as better infrastructure, education, health, etc. the economy grows in the long term due to the initial investment and the tax revenues from said growth pays off the debt. everyone is better off creating debt for the sake of it can be manageable but we’re going to have to pay for financing that debt. their argument that they needed the tax cuts falls short when you notice interest rates have been at historical lows for over a decade. if they were going to invest in something they would have done it by now. this is just the standard hack and slash strat that others have already gone over itt. it’s unfortunately very effective from a political standpoint and our generation is going to have to dedicate our post-boomer lives to cleaning all this poo poo up. our taxes will be higher and it will take a long time to finally get things back into shape and it will suck. but we don’t have any other option.
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Dec 3, 2017 16:48
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Rex-Goliath posted:theoretically debt spending is good when you use it to finance things that will expand the economy- such as better infrastructure, education, health, etc. the economy grows in the long term due to the initial investment and the tax revenues from said growth pays off the debt. everyone is better off generation Z or whatever the generation after that is will absolutely gently caress it up because they'll all be nazis
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Dec 3, 2017 16:49
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rudatron posted:The US government has been totally bought out by moneyed interests, you're nuts if you think they'd ever let a default happen. In theory you're right, but we were perilously close to at least a technical default a few years ago, and that was for no good reason. If there actually was a reason to screw the bondholders down the line I wouldn't be so sure that they wouldn't get screwed. The electorate has shown no fear in electing a Chaos Congress so it's kinda hard to predict what will happen.
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Dec 3, 2017 16:59
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You'll get a military coup before you ever get a default. I think you're under-estimating just how much the democratic system has been totally undermined in the US, and exactly how far these guys are willing to go. They are well aware of their class interests, and are already used to acting in that interest, at the expense of everything else - debt ceiling nonsense is just a sideshow.logikv9 posted:generation Z or whatever the generation after that is will absolutely gently caress it up because they'll all be nazis
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Dec 3, 2017 17:04
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well, we’re both trading in unfalsifiable hypotheses at the moment, so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. but yes, I might be slightly more optimistic about this than most. things can change pretty quickly.
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Dec 3, 2017 17:07
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if it comes down to it you can just print the money instead the bugbear of the MMT people is that they think you should be doing this anyway, all the time, because making it debt doesn't do anything to reduce inflation when the debt itself is considered as safe as money i think capital would freak because it would be a declaration of independence from capital, so you'd get them creating a crisis anyway unless they could be confident the government was utterly subordinate to them. 'coup before default' as rudatron put it it's a tricky situation logikv9 posted:generation Z or whatever the generation after that is will absolutely gently caress it up because they'll all be nazis i would take the alt-right's proclamations about the nature of the next generation about as seriously as their proclamations about the nature of any other group of people tbh a few youtube stars do not material conditions make
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Dec 3, 2017 17:19
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logikv9 posted:generation Z or whatever the generation after that is will absolutely gently caress it up because they'll all be nazis every member of generation z will be a mixed race pansexual, so i doubt it
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Dec 3, 2017 17:51
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Reminder: American conservatism is literally a plot to bring back the Gilded Age. quote:On August 23, 1971, prior to accepting Nixon's nomination to the Supreme Court, Powell was commissioned by his neighbor, Eugene B. Sydnor Jr., a close friend and education director of the US Chamber of Commerce, to write a confidential memorandum titled "Attack on the American Free Enterprise System," an anti-Communist, anti-New Deal blueprint for conservative business interests to retake America for the chamber.[13][14] It was based in part on Powell's reaction to the work of activist Ralph Nader, whose 1965 exposé on General Motors, "Unsafe at Any Speed," put a focus on the auto industry putting profit ahead of safety, which triggered the American consumer movement. Powell saw it as an undermining of Americans' faith in enterprise and another step in the slippery slope of socialism. [...] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_F._Powell_Jr.#Powell_Memorandum rudatron posted:The US government has been totally bought out by moneyed interests, you're nuts if you think they'd ever let a default happen. Eventually, you run low on people savvy to propaganda.
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Dec 3, 2017 17:53
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gen z is 45% nonwhite and probably aren't interested in white fascism
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Dec 3, 2017 18:25
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Lol all the gen z kids I know are substantially more leftist than I was at the same age. Right wingers are constitutionally incapable of telling the truth so why would you ever humor their fevered visions of society?
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Dec 3, 2017 18:37
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they might not all be nazis, granted it was too broad of a brush, but a lot of them will be nazis. the rest will be honest-to-god communists. ww2 was never over
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Dec 3, 2017 18:38
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logikv9 posted:generation Z or whatever the generation after that is will absolutely gently caress it up because they'll all be nazis idk. maybe it's just me but i feel like genx and millenials are way more ok with openly mocking and laughing at far-right blowhards than boomers are.
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Dec 3, 2017 19:12
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tbf nazis have never needed a majority, a substantial proportion of white fash and bystanders will be all they need to back up capital
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Dec 3, 2017 19:18
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I'm back in college at 34. These kids, the last of the millenials, are shockingly centrist. I expected to find comrades. It's been kinda disheartening.
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Dec 3, 2017 19:26
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gen z is loving garbage
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Dec 3, 2017 19:26
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logikv9 posted:for the endgame of the GOP, you can look back in history and/or current deep-red states Trump! *Click*
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Dec 3, 2017 19:28
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https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/937386545656619013 posted in trump thread too but it might be relevant here
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Dec 3, 2017 19:30
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:I'm back in college at 34. These kids, the last of the millenials, are shockingly centrist. I expected to find comrades. It's been kinda disheartening. humans gently caress up everything and all extremes suck
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Dec 3, 2017 19:49
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:I'm back in college at 34. These kids, the last of the millenials, are shockingly centrist. I expected to find comrades. It's been kinda disheartening. This is why anyone who thinks the Boomers dying will solve everything is soft in the skull. The system turns everyone it can into an accomplice.
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Dec 3, 2017 19:51
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triple cuck posted:https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/937386545656619013 nice?
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Dec 3, 2017 20:23
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I went back to college at 26 after working in the trades for a few years and everyone is either a centrist, apolitical, or a conservative. To contrast, in the trades I worked with a few self-described communists and at every shop there would be at least a few people who were receptive to my propagandizing. Basically, all college educated people should be required to go and learn from the masses is what I'm saying.
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Dec 3, 2017 20:41
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I'm in social work, which I'm guessing swings way further left as a profession than almost any others in the US.
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Dec 3, 2017 20:43
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yeah i have no idea. i went to a state college that had no organized left presence at all (although that's starting to change from what i hear). there were college democrats, republicans, and libertarians. after i was gone the libertarian group split, and the remainder mutated into some kind of nationalist alt-right adjacent group that started showing up at protests in the city next door with actual neo-nazis. poo poo was dark. where i live now, near the (bigger) university, the trotskyist club brings in more people every week than TPUSA does monthly; and they're not the only socialist group on campus. most people are probably apolitical though i would say.
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Dec 3, 2017 20:57
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When your job is dealing with the utter failure of US economics everyday by the people most impacted by it. There's a natural tendency to turn left. And drink. Drink a lot.
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Dec 3, 2017 21:02
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:I'm back in college at 34. These kids, the last of the millenials, are shockingly centrist. I expected to find comrades. It's been kinda disheartening. You have to hunt them out but I guarantee you that there is a left presence in any moderately sized university in the US. Look for a YDSA group, you'll probably not be the only old man there.
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Dec 3, 2017 21:06
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logikv9 posted:they might not all be nazis, granted it was too broad of a brush, but a lot of them will be nazis. the rest will be honest-to-god communists. ww2 was never over This is my take They're going to be the most leftist generation in American history but they're also going to be the first one in a long time to explicitly push for legalizing lynching and ethnic cleansing
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Dec 3, 2017 21:09
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Generation Z is Nazbol
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Dec 3, 2017 21:11
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Dreddout posted:Generation Z is Nazbol most common injury to centrists will be both arms being torn off because SS goons are trying to haul them off to a death camp while politburo operatives are trying to haul them off to gulag
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Dec 3, 2017 21:19
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with how stuff has been turning out we're going to see a civil war 2 that will count thousands of innocent online lives because it will be entirely online with sick memes and shitposting. nobody will be spared
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Dec 3, 2017 21:21
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Accretionist posted:Reminder: American conservatism is literally a plot to bring back the Gilded Age. Word, bookmarked. There's more stuff like this (including the philosophy behind Bernays-style propaganda) in Adam Curtis's docu "Century of the Self" if anyone's interested https://youtu.be/eJ3RzGoQC4s Back in the day the US gov literally released a series of films instructing citizens how to spot propaganda-spewing newspapers that were bought out by anti-New Deal corps lol
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Dec 3, 2017 21:22
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Most people I know going to my school tend to suppport UHC. Although there is a fair amount of ancap assholes in the finance program. Unsurprisingly. Hell most o th epeople in the bible study I attend, and half of them are evangelical protestants support uhc.
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Dec 3, 2017 21:46
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:I'm in social work, which I'm guessing swings way further left as a profession than almost any others in the US. I'm in engineering and there's a broad cross-section... grad students who got their degrees shortly before/after the 2007-2008 meltdown didn't get the FYGM mindset as much as those who already had financial security and didn't get told repeatedly "get a real job" when it was impossible to do so. It turns out that not experiencing hardship tends to make people develop conservative ideology. Not quite as distinct a correlation as "wealth+power makes people more sociopathic" or "unearned wealth makes people more susceptible to Dunning-Kruger type illusion of superiority" See also: teaching kids to think for themselves and consider how actions affect others /etc being labeled as "liberal brainwashing" Epic High Five posted:This is my take silentsnack fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Dec 3, 2017 |
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Dec 3, 2017 21:48
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Gen Z I think will be a generation that will be largely left wing, but it will have a significant nazi minority that will make up almost 30% of the Whites. So almost 20% of it will be Nazi.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:02
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Crowsbeak posted:Gen Z I think will be a generation that will be largely left wing, but it will have a significant nazi minority that will make up almost 30% of the Whites. So almost 20% of it will be Nazi. do you have anything (even personal experience) to substantiate this with or are you just repeating literally nazi propaganda
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Dec 3, 2017 22:34
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BTW, current Federal Reserve modeling shows 4th quarter GDP growth coming in at 3.9%. If that holds up, it'd be the highest since 2014. No doomsday yet.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:37
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Agronox posted:BTW, current Federal Reserve modeling shows 4th quarter GDP growth coming in at 3.9%. If that holds up, it'd be the highest since 2014. not being snarky I'm genuinely curious: what did their forecasting say in early 2008?
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Dec 3, 2017 22:46
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:I'm back in college at 34. These kids, the last of the millenials, are shockingly centrist. I expected to find comrades. It's been kinda disheartening. Idk most people at my uni, especially in year 3 or 4, are either centrist, centre left, or socialist. And more than half of those people are centre left(ie in favour of expanded welfare state and higher taxes and more regulations on finance and business in general) or socialist. There is the occasional conservative or libertarian but there really aren't that many of them. I'm in Scotland though, and doing a biomed course (I'm sure if you looked at the econ students it would be a different story), so maybe it's different over here.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:57
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