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MiddleOne posted:Audience receptions and sales do not have a causal relationship. I mean I paid to see the movie in cinema but that doesn't mean I or any of my friends who tagged along liked it. Also, we have the internet these days so you don't have to rely on my anecdotes. If we look up any kind of aggregate site what you can see is that critics rated Suicide Squad on the turd side of things while audiences put it around slightly above 60% (slightly different per site) which in internet user movie ratings is the equivalent of 'this movie sure was a movie'. Self-selecting review sites aren’t a useful aggregator of general audience opinion and even if they were poor reviews don’t mean that audiences found the film dull and confusing due to poor editing. Movies can be bad in a myriad of ways. Also, if you take it at face value a 60% positive rating would seem to indicate that audiences did not find it overwhelmingly dull and confusing, unless you don’t understand numbers or percentages or words.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:21
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Self-selecting review sites aren’t a useful aggregator of general audience opinion and even if they were poor reviews don’t mean that audiences found the film dull and confusing due to poor editing. Movies can be bad in a myriad of ways. Also, if you take it at face value a 60% positive rating would seem to indicate that audiences did not find it overwhelmingly dull and confusing, unless you don’t understand numbers or percentages or words. Is this literally the first time you've seen an user review score on a website? Are you a time-traveler sent from the past to kill us all? 
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Dec 3, 2017 22:22
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MiddleOne posted:Is this literally the first time you've seen an user review score on a website? Are you a time-traveler sent from the past to kill us all? https://politics.theonion.com/time-traveler-from-the-year-1998-warns-nation-not-to-el-1819573232
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Dec 3, 2017 22:27
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The biggest difficulty in gauging general audience reception is that current film industry goals are (perhaps intentionally) skewed in the worst way to figure that out. Your best bet for general audience reception in most mediums can be found through lasting appeal; rewatches, home copy sales, continued word of mouth, expanded material sales etc., whereas right now they're largely focused on hype-based first-week figures, which you can only really use to gauge advertising effectiveness/brand appeal/franchise enthusiasm. IMO, from what we've generally seen: 1) BvS theatrical was very negatively received, considering its' titanic drop in sales in the second week 2) DVD/Blu-ray sales of BvS suggest a cult following of a cut with clearer editing 3) People in general liked Harley Quinn in SS, even if they didnt like SS (continued endurance of HQ-based tie-ins even as the movies' dies out) 4) Justice League is suffering from diminishing franchise enthusiasm/trust (evident from tepid first-week sales) and audiences weren't impressed enough to try to change that (BO sales continuing to dive afterwards). Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Dec 3, 2017 |
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Dec 3, 2017 22:27
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MiddleOne posted:Is this literally the first time you've seen an user review score on a website? Are you a time-traveler sent from the past to kill us all? There’s either two possibilities here: 1. The rotten tomatoes reviews are representative of overall audience opinion in which case 60% of people who saw the movie had an overall positive impression, and thus probably would not call it dull and confusing based on poor editing. 2. The numbers are meaningless so why would you reference them?
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Dec 3, 2017 22:27
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MiddleOne posted:Audience receptions and sales do not have a causal relationship. MiddleOne posted:Suicide Squad while a disappointing at best movie is a great example of how you can sell anything in the short-term if you slush enough beloved brands, marketing and funds into a blender, the slumping sales of Justice League arguably being the long-term consequences of this strategy. Snowglobe of Doom posted:Yeah you could tell from day 1 that it was in deep trouble: If it was just a matter of establishing a brand and then serving up what the audiences expected each time then WW should have got them back into the audience's good books and had a positive follow on effect on Justice League's sales but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:30
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McCloud posted:Regarding the whole "if you want to see his monument, look around you" quote is referring to Christopher Wren. A goon wrote this about him a while ago: If I had any skill at all I'd edit it into Look Around You's intro. Thanks Superman. Thuperman.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:31
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BiggerBoat posted:Many people have pointed it out, including myself. If you feel like you've done a good post on the editing in the past, I don't think anybody would mind if you just quote it rather than go through the work of writing a new one. But it doesn't really add to the discussion to, as I've seen people do many times, claim that the work of actually talking about the movie happened in the nebulous past and must simply be accepted by those of us in the present without any chance to read and respond.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:39
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YOLOsubmarine posted:There’s either two possibilities here: I'll give you a hint. For as long as there have been internet review sites, counter-intuitive as it may seem, on a 10 point scale internet users on average don't actually see 5 as the middle point. If you don't get what that implies then I don't think we're getting any further on this. YOLOsubmarine posted:2. The numbers are meaningless so why would you reference them? They're only useless when viewed in isolation, they are very meaningful when put in context to the ratings of other movies with similar target audiences. That's what I was referring to when I earlier stated that "which in internet user movie ratings is the equivalent of 'this movie sure was a movie'".
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Dec 3, 2017 22:40
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Dec 3, 2017 22:52
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MiddleOne posted:I'll give you a hint. For as long as there have been internet review sites, counter-intuitive as it may seem, on a 10 point scale internet users on average don't actually see 5 as the middle point. If you don't get what that implies then I don't think we're getting any further on this. This is indicative of the fact that most audience think most movies are at least okay because most major studios movies ARE at least okay. They’re usually competently made relative to what a truly bad movie would be. There’s a big difference between “suicide squad was dull and confusing” and “suicide squad wasn’t as good as a bunch of other movies released recently.” Of course, taking those numbers at face value at all is loving stupid for a number of reasons.
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Dec 3, 2017 22:57
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The Cameo posted:Jim Emerson's Dark Knight editing video was a goddamn embarrassment when he posted it, and Joseph Kahn literally had to explain very carefully that at no point did Nolan do anything that confused the audience, and the choices made don't break the "rules" of film editing, which one has to note are actually only suggestions. Right, even though I like that video, it's at best CinemaSins stuff. The scene is only oddly edited if you're looking for specific rules that are being "broken". BiggerBoat posted:Many people have pointed it out, including myself. Even most of the film's defenders acknowledge that the editing was rather disjointed, jarring, needed some work and generally concede that it was one of the movie's weaknesses. The overall message that always comes away from this type of thing is that the choices made were jarring, grim, obvious, disturbing, "out of character", etc. The editing "makes no sense", inevitably, because the spectator wouldn't have done it that way. Opinions about tone with a veneer of technical objectivity. Failing that, "I didn't like it, and most people agree with me." To which the obvious rebuttal is "so what?"
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Dec 4, 2017 01:00
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Suicide squads editing is bad because the main scene, waller at the table with her goons, is made redundant by the rest of the movie. They spend an agonizing amount of time talking about the group, what they can each do, and then each character in the movie gets their own moment to restate the same thing. On top of this, you have a villain origin story just dropped in, which is again neutered by the terrible ending where a guy with a gun shoots a magical being with a regular bullet fueled by the power of forced friendship. Harley's story is butchered, leaving her looking uncaring as she leaves her team to certain doom, only for fire guy to claim her as family. It's not a movie, it's a really expensive YouTube fan film.
bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Dec 4, 2017 |
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Dec 4, 2017 01:01
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Suicide Squad editing is bad because there’s never any consistent sense of where people are and what direction they are moving relative to other characters and locations. Most of “good editing” isn’t a set of technical rules but the nuts and bolts of moving people around in the frame in such a way that makes sense from a spatial and narrative perspective. All of the companies trying to follow the MCU are failing because they are overtly creating cinematic universes and not concentrating on making good standalone films. This is the root of studio interference. Justice League cost everyone their Christmas bonuses this year. Maybe they’ll learn. Personally as a fan I think they started way too late in both Batman and Superman’s respective timelines. I would have liked to see Batman and Wonder Woman get their own movies then meet up in Trinity or something, rather than rushing into Justice League. bad day fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Dec 4, 2017 |
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Dec 4, 2017 03:51
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I don't recall having that issue with Suicide Squad, and I had plenty of issues with Suicide Squad.bad day posted:Personally as a fan I think they started way too late in both Batman and Superman’s respective timelines. Man of Steel starts with Kal as a baby on Krypton, and the main story is about Clark becoming Superman. How do you go earlier?
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Dec 4, 2017 03:53
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He deals with Zod in the first movie. Doomsday in the second.
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Dec 4, 2017 03:55
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He was going to deal with Zod in the first movie in the original Donner film until the studio decided to split it into two films. I can't really think of any reason you should save him. He's not like the big bad of Superman mythology.
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Dec 4, 2017 03:59
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bad day posted:He deals with Zod in the first movie. Doomsday in the second. I don't understand how this makes it late in his timeline.
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Dec 4, 2017 04:02
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Hell, Doomsday was SUPER early for Post Crisis Superman. People forget that, but Post Crisis Superman started in late 1986 and Doomsday showed up in 1992. He was not around that long before getting murked.
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Dec 4, 2017 04:05
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this looks like a scene from an Arrested Development-esque sitcom about Superman. it's my favorite gif
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Dec 4, 2017 04:07
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Burkion posted:Hell, Doomsday was SUPER early for Post Crisis Superman. People forget that, but Post Crisis Superman started in late 1986 and Doomsday showed up in 1992. The death of Superman functions very differently in BvS than it does in the comics. It's not just that Doomsday kills Superman in BvS. Lex Luthor basically successfully kills Superman in the first try. That alone makes these radically different worlds. The death of Superman in the comics is a subversion and unexpected thing as much as its just cheap soap opera antics at its core. In BvS, it creates a world where Lex Luthor kills Superman the first time they fight. To be fair, Lex doesn't really win. Lex's plan is to either prove that Superman isn't all good or isn't all bad, and Superman proves him wrong through the greater power within sacrifice that Lex can never understand, but that's neither here nor there. I get why it's kind of weird to look at this Superman as a dude who shat around for his twenties, was Superman for a year, and then was murdered by Lex Luthor the first time they met.
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Dec 4, 2017 04:25
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It makes sense in the story Snyder's trying to tell and it creates depth in what Superman means and his acceptance through sacrifice in his world towards working a Justice League launch. It was a good way to do it.
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Dec 4, 2017 04:33
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Sir Kodiak posted:I don't recall having that issue with Suicide Squad, and I had plenty of issues with Suicide Squad. WB must have had the same thoughts though because they're doing that Krypton series about Jor-El's dad.
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Dec 4, 2017 04:42
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Is it okay if I think Suicide Squad does suffer from bad editing but I also think FoldingIdeas is garbage-tier YouTube?
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Dec 4, 2017 04:45
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Neo Rasa posted:WB must have had the same thoughts though because they're doing that Krypton series about Jor-El's dad. if it's even half as crazy as gotham i'll be all over it
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Dec 4, 2017 04:52
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Pirate Jet posted:Is it okay if I think Suicide Squad does suffer from bad editing but I also think FoldingIdeas is garbage-tier YouTube? Most YouTubers who speak with authority about film usually have no clue what they're talking about.
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Dec 4, 2017 05:14
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Dan Olson is actually a member of these forums and while it's fine to disagree with his points, I think some of you are being unnecessarily aggressive about this.
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Dec 4, 2017 06:01
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Hey Dan Olson go gently caress a lemon. That is the expression, yes?
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Dec 4, 2017 06:03
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Squad's editing is a direct consequence of a directionless franchise plan that tried to fast-track projects with the conflicting goals of both catching up to Marvel's CU and delivering a boutique Auteur product a la The Dark Knight. They hired "dark auteur" David Ayer to write + direct and then gave him a timetable better suited to a "crank it out and get it done" for-hire director. With six weeks to write, zero weeks to workshop, a hard release date, and a studio mandate to have a "big" villain, the end result was an almost four hour grind of character introductions (my sources in the studio have confirmed that getting everyone into Belle Reve took almost two hours in the cut that was screened before WB started freaking out), a thin plot, and a fight against an enemy that the protagonists had no business confronting. WB more or less set Ayer up to fail, and then made it all the worse by heavily meddling in the process of getting the edit under control. The final film was pretty much doomed to some deep structural flaws simply by the nature of its creation, but the panicked tampering basically ensured that the final film would be so confusing that even people who really liked it would still have trouble putting scenes back in order, would miss out on the death of a key character, and would have trouble deciphering the actual plot of the movie. Still, as a train wreck it's grown on me and I hope that someday I'll get to see the four hour pre-Trailer Park workprint.
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Dec 4, 2017 06:22
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FoldableHuman posted:would miss out on the death of a key character What's this?
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Dec 4, 2017 06:36
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FoldableHuman posted:Squad's editing is a direct consequence of a directionless franchise plan that tried to fast-track projects with the conflicting goals of both catching up to Marvel's CU and delivering a boutique Auteur product a la The Dark Knight. They hired "dark auteur" David Ayer to write + direct and then gave him a timetable better suited to a "crank it out and get it done" for-hire director. With six weeks to write, zero weeks to workshop, a hard release date, and a studio mandate to have a "big" villain, the end result was an almost four hour grind of character introductions (my sources in the studio have confirmed that getting everyone into Belle Reve took almost two hours in the cut that was screened before WB started freaking out), a thin plot, and a fight against an enemy that the protagonists had no business confronting. [noticing that it's the guy we've been talking about] That's the guy that we've been talking about, take him down
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Dec 4, 2017 06:54
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Sir Kodiak posted:What's this? Slipknot was like a father to me.
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Dec 4, 2017 07:14
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wyoming posted:Slipknot was like a father to me. Yeah, of course, I cried like a baby when he died, but we did see it happen.
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Dec 4, 2017 07:37
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I still can't believe they didn't have at least one moment that Slipknot could have solved after he died. Or that there apparently aren't any Steppenwolf songs in Justice League.
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Dec 4, 2017 09:46
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should've been a nice slow, doleful choral cover of magic carpet ride at some point at least
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Dec 4, 2017 12:00
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The biggest editing issue I had with SS was a scene that seems to have been filmed as a setup for a plot twist only it's not? I don't even know if this is an editing issue or just shifting the story around and they kinda just left it as is; but when the Enchantress ditches the military team it's setup as if there's going to be a follow up to it later on.
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Dec 4, 2017 15:13
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I like that Boomerang leaves the team with an "I don't need this" speech and you would expect him to come back at a dramatic moment or something, but then they slo-mo walk outside a minute later and he just saunters up and they all give him a knowing nod.
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Dec 4, 2017 15:18
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Watched this again, and while I agree with some of the suicide squad appraisal, any time someone starts metasplaining BvS about things like " awful plot construction" it's hard for me to take them seriously. The plot is pretty much straight forward, yet these folks talk about rigid Degrassi style editing "rules" like that's the only way to make a movie.
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Dec 4, 2017 17:14
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Al Borland Corp. posted:I like that Boomerang leaves the team with an "I don't need this" speech and you would expect him to come back at a dramatic moment or something, but then they slo-mo walk outside a minute later and he just saunters up and they all give him a knowing nod. They cut a shot where Boomerang has second thoughts and turns around, because no matter how you cut it Boomerang just leaves and comes back a minute later. I'm also enjoying this little round of "key character dies? Slipknot?" but no, not Slipknot. However, speaking of Slipknot, I'm not sad they cut down his part, his dialogue was apparently atrocious, but what a waste of Adam Beach.
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Dec 4, 2017 17:21
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quote:The 21st Century Fox sales talks have resumed, with both the Walt Disney Company and Comcast Corps re-engaged in active discussions, according to The Wall Street Journal. Rupert Murdoch and his family own 39% of Fox's voting shares, and are said to be pushing for a deal by the end of this year. https://www.newsarama.com/37600-fox-sale-picking-up-steam-with-disney-comcast-top-suitors-report.html https://www.wsj.com/articles/disney-re-engages-in-talks-to-buy-21st-century-fox-assets-1512239431
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Dec 4, 2017 17:24
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